Tithing in the Bible for NT Christians

robert skynner

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Scripture for God supplying all we have? Or scripture that I give Him 10% as tribute?

For the latter, I refer you to God's clear admonision of robbing Him... you may not take that as still relevent, but I do.

You should reference your scriptures so that i can then look them up. Malachi 3:8-12 is referenced to the levitical priests, not to Israel as a whole or to the gentiles or to new covenant Christians. Consider Malachi 2:1: "And now oh priests, this commandment is for you." The word "priests" refers specifically to levitical priests, and not to anybody else, and so it's incorrect to apply this today to gentile converts to Christ, as Malachi 3:8-12 is addressing priests who were stealing from the tithe.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Luckily, God has given us new revelation of our roles in the Apostolic age...

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

I'm sure you will come up with some semantic reason why this is not applicable... as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
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robert skynner

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In Romans 7:14, Paul said that the law is spiritual, so while there are no Levites for us to support, we should still follow the same spiritual principles of tithing to support those who work in ministry and to support the poor.


“Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.” (Deuteronomy 12:17-18, KJV).



“So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore.” (Hebrews 13:13, NLT).



Referring to the festival tithe, we read at Deuteronomy 12:17, that this particular tithe is to be eaten, specifically outside the city, because it pictures the sacrifice of Christ, which was also outside the city gates (Hebrews 13:13). So if the tithe has any spiritual application, it’s specifically in the sacrifice of Christ, on the cross, who was crucified outside of the city walls. There is no connection between tithing and the financial giving of money to local churches. Giving is not tithing, tithing was a tax specifically on agricultural produce (Leviticus 27:30), whilst giving, being voluntary cannot be a tax, and it's money not food. The words "spiritual principles" are never applied to tithing, it's the money preacher Creflo Dollar who has forwarded the idea that giving money to him, is a development of the spiritual principle of tithing. I will address the other statements on the law, which by the way I thought were extremely well written, tomorrow.
 
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robert skynner

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Luckily, God has given us new revelation of our roles in the Apostolic age...

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

I'm sure you will come up with some semantic reason why this is not applicable... as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:' (1st peter 2:9. KJV).


In the old testament, the priests never tithed to anyone else. Instead, the levitical priests together with the other temple workers received an offering of a tenth, called the termurah ma`aiser, out of the levitical tithe (Numbers 18:26). The tithing which Jesus encountered the priests paying at Matthew 23:23, was a recent oral tradition which had developed much later amongst the four Rabbinical Pharisaic traditions. This oral tradition taught that whilst the priests and levities did not have to tithe on the produce of their 48 levitical cities (Numbers 35:7). So outside of these 48 cities, this oral tradition taught that the priests had to tithe on the produce of their small herb and vegetable gardens, which would have been connected to the Jerusalem temple, as this land was not a part of the Levites 48 city land allocation. So seeing that priests were exempt from tithing under the levitical law and that all Christians are now God priests today (1st Peter 2:5, 9), therefore as priests today, all Christians are also completely exempt from tithing. As a final point, other than the High Priest and Captain of the Guard, all of the other temple workers were part-time workers who worked in one of twenty four courses (Luke 1:5), for a period of just over two weeks each. So if Christian pastors claim that they ought to be paid just like the Jewish Priests, then they ought to be paid past-time wages in food (not money)!

But if you disagree, then as I am a member of the Royal Priesthood, then start sending me (a priest) 10% of your income immediately.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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First you say...

Malachi 3:8-12 is referenced to the levitical priests, not to Israel as a whole or to the gentiles or to new covenant Christians.

Then you contradict yourself in the next post...

In the old testament, the priests never tithed to anyone else.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:' (1st peter 2:9. KJV).


In the old testament, the priests never tithed to anyone else. Instead, the levitical priests together with the other temple workers received an offering of a tenth, called the termurah ma`aiser, out of the levitical tithe (Numbers 18:26). The tithing which Jesus encountered the priests paying at Matthew 23:23, was a recent oral tradition which had developed much later amongst the four Rabbinical Pharisaic traditions. This oral tradition taught that whilst the priests and levities did not have to tithe on the produce of their 48 levitical cities (Numbers 35:7). So outside of these 48 cities, this oral tradition taught that the priests had to tithe on the produce of their small herb and vegetable gardens, which would have been connected to the Jerusalem temple, as this land was not a part of the Levites 48 city land allocation. So seeing that priests were exempt from tithing under the levitical law and that all Christians are now God priests today (1st Peter 2:5, 9), therefore as priests today, all Christians are also completely exempt from tithing. As a final point, other than the High Priest and Captain of the Guard, all of the other temple workers were part-time workers who worked in one of twenty four courses (Luke 1:5), for a period of just over two weeks each. So if Christian pastors claim that they ought to be paid just like the Jewish Priests, then they ought to be paid past-time wages in food (not money)!

But if you disagree, then as I am a member of the Royal Priesthood, then start sending me (a priest) 10% of your income immediately.
You keep metioning the priests duty but the principle of tithing was mentioned long before Sinai, when the Levitical priesthood was set up.

Gen 28:20-24

20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
 
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Soyeong

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'But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:' (1st peter 2:9. KJV).


In the old testament, the priests never tithed to anyone else. Instead, the levitical priests together with the other temple workers received an offering of a tenth, called the termurah ma`aiser, out of the levitical tithe (Numbers 18:26). The tithing which Jesus encountered the priests paying at Matthew 23:23, was a recent oral tradition which had developed much later amongst the four Rabbinical Pharisaic traditions. This oral tradition taught that whilst the priests and levities did not have to tithe on the produce of their 48 levitical cities (Numbers 35:7). So outside of these 48 cities, this oral tradition taught that the priests had to tithe on the produce of their small herb and vegetable gardens, which would have been connected to the Jerusalem temple, as this land was not a part of the Levites 48 city land allocation. So seeing that priests were exempt from tithing under the levitical law and that all Christians are now God priests today (1st Peter 2:5, 9), therefore as priests today, all Christians are also completely exempt from tithing. As a final point, other than the High Priest and Captain of the Guard, all of the other temple workers were part-time workers who worked in one of twenty four courses (Luke 1:5), for a period of just over two weeks each. So if Christian pastors claim that they ought to be paid just like the Jewish Priests, then they ought to be paid past-time wages in food (not money)!

But if you disagree, then as I am a member of the Royal Priesthood, then start sending me (a priest) 10% of your income immediately.

According to Encyclopedia Judaica, the Levites also tithed and tithes were not limited to food. In Matthew 23, Jesus was not speaking to the priests, but to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. It's not as if priests did nothing for the rest of the year and it is not as if everyone owed 10% of their income to every priest /eyeroll. The Levites received money from the tithe because all of the other tribes were given land as their inheritance while their lot was to work in ministry, so following the same principle, we should also tithe to support those who devote themselves to ministry.
 
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robert skynner

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First you say...



Then you contradict yourself in the next post...



As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

No I did not, the first tithe was the levitical tithe were a tenth of your agricultural produce went to the tribe of Levi (Numbers 18:20-21). Out of this tithe, the best tenth (which was technically an offering of a tithe) went to the priests for the administration of the tabernacle and then temple (Numbers 18:26). If I have not been clear, then I apologize and I will try to explain more clearly. However, as a general rule, Nehemiah 10:37 states that the tithe was given to the levities and offerings to the priests. At Malachi 3:8-10 what is call the tithe here is the heave offering (Tamurah Maaiser), which was technically an offering, taken from the levitical tithe and then paid to the priests for tabernacle / temple upkeep. So this was an offering, which confusingly happened to be a tenth from a then (Numbers 18:26). I hope that this post clears this up.
 
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robert skynner

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According to Encyclopedia Judaica, the Levites also tithed and tithes were not limited to food. In Matthew 23, Jesus was not speaking to the priests, but to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. It's not as if priests did nothing for the rest of the year and it is not as if everyone owed 10% of their income to every priest /eyeroll. The Levites received money from the tithe because all of the other tribes were given land as their inheritance while their lot was to work in ministry, so following the same principle, we should also tithe to support those who devote themselves to ministry.

There is no such thing as MINISTRY, every Christian has a ministry, a job a function a duty, that is why ALL Christians are said to be a "Royal Priesthood" 1st Peter 2:9. The idea of a clergy class who live off the ordinary Christians, is false, and this false view came into the church in the early centuries when as the church aped the pagan priests who ran their pagan temples. Yes the levities also tithed (Numbers 18:26), but that verse as well as Matthew 23 are before the cross, in the old covenant, and amazingly, it's the christian church which through its constant promotion and mixing of the old covenant law with grace, that is putting new testament christians back under the Mosaic law.
 
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robert skynner

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You keep metioning the priests duty but the principle of tithing was mentioned long before Sinai, when the Levitical priesthood was set up.

Gen 28:20-24

20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.


Jacob here promises to tithe to God, on condition that God is with him and provides him with food and clothing (Genesis 28:20), however this vow to tithe was conditional only after Jacob had returned to his father’s house (Genesis 28:21), which happened some twenty years later: (Genesis 31:38). Advocates of modern day church tithing will conveniently forget pointing this out. Also notice that Genesis doesn’t record Jacob ever tithing, so it’s likely that Jacob had forgotten this previous vow to tithe. God however fulfils his part of this vow, in that God provided Jacob with both food and clothes, who was now called Israel (Genesis 45:22-23). From Jacob’s (Israel’s) perspective, as he hadn’t tithed to God as he had vowed, God then took Judah (Genesis 44:33), who was one of his ten sons as his tithe; obviously prefiguring Jesus Christ in this anti-type of Christ’s offering for the sins of his people.
 
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According to Encyclopedia Judaica, the Levites also tithed and tithes were not limited to food.

This statement is inaccurate, the tithe (as a part of the 613 Mosaic laws) was specifically food (Leviticus 27:30). If you are going to quote a source, then give the page number, volume, edition and publisher etc, otherwise your claims cannot be checked for accuracy by other people which is not proper and fair conduct by yourself.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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This statement is inaccurate, the tithe (as a part of the 613 Mosaic laws) was specifically food (Leviticus 27:30). If you are going to quote a source, then give the page number, volume, edition and publisher etc, otherwise your claims cannot be checked for accuracy by other people which is not proper and fair conduct by yourself.
For someone that professes to not to be a Christian, you sure do have an abnormal interest in what we do... even supposing to teach us. By whose authority, I am not clear though.

What do you care if I send 10% of my income to a family ministry in Zambia that produces much fruit and brings many souls to a knowledge of God? Money well spent if you ask me.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
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robert skynner

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For someone that professes to not to be a Christian, you sure do have an abnormal interest in what we do... even supposing to teach us. By whose authority, I am not clear though.

What do you care if I send 10% of my income to a family ministry in Zambia that produces much fruit and brings many souls to a knowledge of God? Money well spent if you ask me.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The Tithe was food not money under the Mosaic law (Leviticus 27:30), don't call your giving a tithe if it isn't a tithe. That's the trouble with Christianity, Christians redefine terms completely differently to the Bible and then say "don't judge me." Also they (you) turn everything into a personal attack, as if I do not have the right to question your religion or religion in general: seeing the damage that religion does worldwide, critically examining it's claims makes alot of sense, also your own Bible at 1st John 4:1 warns: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

I agree and the worst false prophets I've ever met are local christians here in the South West of the UK. I'm now done with organised (institutional) religion. Look, the issue isn't what you do with your income, the issue is that today so many Christians (particularly evangelicals), use terms such as trinty, tithing, saved, born again in ways which are distinctly non-scriptural and are based entirely upon either personal subjective feelings or ... what my pastor told me. I gave up on church years ago when a number of leaders told me that Jesus was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in an Elim Church (Trinitarian Pentecostal Church). They even called the police which you can see on video on youtube ... just type: Seven Plymouth Christian Center congregants deny the Trinity on video.
 
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Soyeong

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There is no such thing as MINISTRY, every Christian has a ministry, a job a function a duty, that is why ALL Christians are said to be a "Royal Priesthood" 1st Peter 2:9. The idea of a clergy class who live off the ordinary Christians, is false, and this false view came into the church in the early centuries when as the church aped the pagan priests who ran their pagan temples.

We are all called to ministry, even in the OT, but there is a difference between someone who earns a regular income through a regular job and someone who does not have a regular income because they work full time to serve the needs of their congregation and community.

Yes the levities also tithed (Numbers 18:26), but that verse as well as Matthew 23 are before the cross, in the old covenant, and amazingly, it's the christian church which through its constant promotion and mixing of the old covenant law with grace, that is putting new testament christians back under the Mosaic law.

While it is true that we are no longer under the Old Covenant, we are still under the same God. God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so the way to act in line with God's character existed from the beginning and is not dependent on any covenant, though it was revealed through God's covenants. So there is a difference between a set of instructions for how to act according to God's character and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions. A covenant agreement can come and go, but God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are eternal and do not change, so the way to act according to God's character does not change, and as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to do what God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good in accordance with His character (1 Peter 1:13-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10). Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

Grace is not a new attribute of God in the NT, but rather grace has always been an attribute of God that He displayed in the OT (Exodus 34:6-7) through teaching us how to rightly live. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the law. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what He has revealed to be ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what the Mosaic law was given to instruct us how to do (Romans 7:12, Romans 7:7). According to Strong's "grace" is defined as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His commands. According to the blessings before the Shema, "With an abundant love have you loved us, God. For the sake of our ancestors whom You taught the laws for living, may You also be gracious to us and teach us, too." So God's grace is not opposed to His law, as if a house divided against itself could stand, but rather God's grace is what trains us to obey it.

According to Galatians 5:16-23, everything that is listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic law, while everything listed as works of the Spirit are also in accordance with the law, so it doesn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to us not being under the Mosaic law if we are led by the Spirit, especially when the law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Likewise, it doesn't make any sense to interpret Romans 6:14 as referring to the Mosaic law because it is not the Mosaic law which Paul described as sin having dominion over him, but the law of sin, which he contrasted with the Mosaic law (Romans 7:22-23).

This statement is inaccurate, the tithe (as a part of the 613 Mosaic laws) was specifically food (Leviticus 27:30). If you are going to quote a source, then give the page number, volume, edition and publisher etc, otherwise your claims cannot be checked for accuracy by other people which is not proper and fair conduct by yourself.

I recently asked a question at my synagogue about whether people who worked in other professions tithed and was directed to read a article about tithing in a physical copy of the Encyclopedia Judaica that they had, so that is what I was referencing, and I can give you that information next week if you think it will help. During this time, the Israelites lived in a predominantly an agricultural society that lived off the produce of the land, but not everyone did. For example, it was not as if stone workers or wood workers did nothing to contribute from the fruit of their labor, but rather the historical evidence shows that those things were tithed as well. If you have any corroborating evidence that those people were historically exempted from tithing, then I would be interested in seeing it.
 
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robert skynner

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I recently asked a question at my synagogue about whether people who worked in other professions tithed and was directed to read a article about tithing in a physical copy of the Encyclopedia Judaica that they had, so that is what I was referencing, and I can give you that information next week if you think it will help.


hello Soyeong, and thank you once again for your extremely interesting and well written post. Yes I would be interested in this reference from Encyclopedia Judaica; I can wait until next week for your next post. Thank you by the way for going to so much trouble on my behalf, your posts are extremely detailed, alot of meat to chew, but I am thinking over your comments.
robert
 
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robert skynner

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According to Galatians 5:16-23, everything that is listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic law, while everything listed as works of the Spirit are also in accordance with the law, so it doesn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to us not being under the Mosaic law if we are led by the Spirit, especially when the law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Soyeong, I'd have to repeat my claim that we are not under the law, it having been abolished in Christ ("For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." Hebrews 7:18) and done away ("In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13). The law is now written on Christian's hearts, rather than just on stones. Your post (which was extremely insightful and well written), does not explain the nature of the new covenant, as opposed to the old covenant, the old covenant being between God and man; which obviously man could not fully keep properly. The new covenant was made between God and man, mediated through the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:12-15), that being so, the new covenant will never be broken or fail as Christ will never fail to keep this new covenant. This is why the new covenant is so much better than the old - IT WILL NEVER BE BROKEN. Possibly, your post could have dealt with the difference between justification and sanctification, I of course agree that we must be holy, we must keep God's will (expressed in his law), but this is for sanctification and not justification! May I clarify that justification is fully, completely, 100% of God and apart from our own law keeping, which plays zero part in our justification! Unlike sanctification where our own works and holiness do play a play a part even today. I hope that I have clarified this.
 
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robert skynner

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Likewise, it doesn't make any sense to interpret Romans 6:14 as referring to the Mosaic law because it is not the Mosaic law which Paul described as sin having dominion over him, but the law of sin, which he contrasted with the Mosaic law (Romans 7:22-23).


I am rather puzzled by your statement on this verse! "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:14-15).


I cannot fathom how law in this context, i.e. in Romans 6 cannot refer to the Mosaic law, (as you have claimed), I believe that Christians are not under the 613 laws, thus Christians are not to be circumcised as the 613 Laws in the Torah does not apply to them.

Consider Romans 3:28-31: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."


Thus in justification, Christ justifies though his (New) covenant which he made with God the Father and which is mediated through the Holy Spirit (Hebrew 9:13-15). Romans 3:28 is emphatic that a man is justified WITHOUT the law (i.e. without our own good works of law keeping)! The next chapter gives the example of Abraham, who was NOT justified by his own works (Romans 4:2), in fact all people, including Abraham are justified without their own good works see Romans 4:5 and note that only he who does NOT work is justified: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


So God only justifies those who do not work; which must come as a shock to so many millions of evangelical Christians who claim that they are faithful tithing today, the 7th Day Adventists, and others such as Roman Catholics who confuse sanctification (where our own good works do play a part), with Justification, (where our good works contribute absolutely ZERO, nada, nothing to our own justification as in Romans 3:28-4:5). However, please don't misunderstand me, as before our fellow human beings, in sanctification, our good works do indeed sanctify us, but they cannot justify us before God. James uses the same example of Abraham, and he then explains that Abraham’s good works, before his fellow man (James 2:14), did indeed justify him (but not in a legal forensic act of Justification before God), but in sanctification (before other men who saw his good deeds).
 
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robert skynner

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I didn’t say anything about tithing. I agree that tithing is not required… so, how could it not be giving?

I am not here to discuss giving, my only agreement was to discuss the claim that Christians are commanded by the Bible to pay tithes today (I am willing to debate and argue against that claim).
 
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robert skynner

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This is not a closed discussion/thread so anyone can post here if that is what you mean.



By that logic Christians could take God's name in vain. But nobody goes for that. (And of course there is no text that says that it was not a sin for gentiles to murder or steal or take God's name in vain - it was just a sin if Jews did it.)

Not even Psalms 147 does not say that it is ok for Gentiles to sin. Certainly they all came from Noah -- and the world of Noah's day destroyed because of sin. In Genesis 4 Cain is told that "Sin is at your door but you must master it" when Cain is thinking evil of Able and angry to the point of murder.

In fact Leviticus 18 says that God wiped out totally ignorant gentile nations for violating certain laws of God. And of course the entire Genesis 6 world wide flood due to man's sin shows it. So also does the destruction of Sodom in Genesis 19.

Lev 18
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled . 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

What is more in Isaiah 56 Gentiles are specifically told to the keep the Sabbath.

A great many Christians today consider themselves "New Covenant" Christians - but of course the Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 "New Covenant" like the TEN Commandments -- is made with "The House of Israel and the house of Judah" according to "the text".

Romans 2 tells us why --
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for teaching, instruction, correction"

However, Christ summed up the essence of Christianity as love God will all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, so without being under the law, converts to Christ ought to respect God.

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law"

1 Cor 7:19 "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"



Acts 1 defines an Apostle as one who lived at the time of Christ and saw his miracles - heard his teaching. So by definition that group no longer exists. but the others have no such definition in either 1 Corinthians 12 or in Ephesians 4.

in Christ,

Bob


Bob, are you willing to debate: "Does the Bible command Christians to pay tithes today?" I am willing to argue against this debate proposition.
 
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Soyeong

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I am rather puzzled by your statement on this verse! "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." (Romans 6:14-15).


I cannot fathom how law in this context, i.e. in Romans 6 cannot refer to the Mosaic law, (as you have claimed), I believe that Christians are not under the 613 laws,

In Romans 6:14, the first half of the verse explains the second half in that there is something about the law that we not under that has to do sin no longer having dominion over us, which is not the case with the Mosaic law. Paul said that God's law was not sin, but that is revealed what sin is (Romans 7:7), that the law was holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), that he sought to do what is right and good, but that sin that dwelled within him was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, (Romans 7:13-20), that he delight in the Mosaic law (which is the same thing as that David repeatedly said he delighted in obeying throughout the Psalms), but that there was another law waging war in his members against the law in his mind that was making him captive to the law of sin that dwells in his members (Romans 7:22-23), and that he served the Mosaic law with his mind, but with his flesh he served the law of sin (Romans 7:25). In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul confirmed that all OT Scripture, which primarily referred to the Mosaic law, is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work. So the law that Paul was describing where sin had dominion of him, which no longer had dominion over us when we are under grace, is the law of sin (Romans 6:14).

In Romans 6:1-14, Paul said that we died to sin, that we were baptized into Christ's death so that we might be raised to walk in newness of life, that the old self was crucified was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin, so we are being set free from transgressing the Mosaic law, and that death no longer has dominion over us, so we are no longer under the law of sin and death. Paul went on to say that we should not let sin reign in our mortal bodies, that we should not present our members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but to present ourselves to God as instruments of righteousness, for sin will no longer have dominion over us because we are not under the law but under grace.

The Mosaic law was given to reveal to us what sin is, without it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so it doesn't make any sense for Paul to say in Romans 6:12-15 that we should do what God has revealed to be is righteous and we should refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin, but we are no longer under the Mosaic law that reveals to us what is righteous and sin, so we don't need to obey it, yet being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to do the things that God has revealed in His law to be sin. Furthermore, God's grace trains us to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what God has revealed to be ungodly and sinful (Titus 2:11-14), which is what the law was essentially given to instruct us how to do, so what sense does it make to say that being under grace means that we are no longer under God's law? Rather, the law that we are not under is the law of sin and death. We have been set free from sin so that we can be free to become obedient servants of God, not so that disregard His instructions for how to do what is righteous and avoid sin (Romans 6:15-19).

thus Christians are not to be circumcised as the 613 Laws in the Torah does not apply to them.

There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, so we need to be careful not to mistake something that was only against following the laws of man as being against following the law of the God that we follow. The Mosaic law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and does not even require Jews to become circumcised for the purpose of becoming saved, so the requirement in Acts 15:1 was purely a man-made requirement as part of the customs of Moses, and by rejecting it they were upholding God's law, though God's law does require circumcision for the purpose of being a sign of the covenant. According to Isaiah 45:25, all Israel will be justified, which to many Jews meant that Gentiles had to become Jews in order to become justified, which involved going through the man-made process of becoming a Jewish proselyte, which involved circumcision, and which involved becoming part of the group that agreed at Sinai to do everything that Moses said (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-27). According to them:

“Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it Joshua. Joshua transmitted it to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets transmitted it to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise many students, and make a protective fence for the Torah.” (Mishna 1(a))

By the time of Messiah's day, the people who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:2-4). So when Gentiles agreed to become circumcised, they were becoming Jews and were agreeing to live according to all of the oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences of the scribes and the Pharisees who sat in Moses' seat, and doing that all for the purpose of becoming saved. Much of the confusion that many Christians have about the discussion of laws in the NT is that they don't distinguish which law is being talked about, and just assume that it is always talking about the Mosaic law. For example:

Matthew 15:1-3 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

In these verses, we have a pretty clear distinction between man-made oral laws or traditions of the elders and the commandment of God, so they are not talking about the same body of laws. Jesus accused them of breaking the command of God (Deuteronomy 4:2) by adding to what God had commanded, he quoted Isaiah to say that they worshipped God in vain by teaching as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:7-9), and he criticised them for setting aside the commands of God to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9). In Acts 10:28, we have another reference to a law that is not found anywhere in the Mosaic law, which is actually contrary to the Mosaic law (Leviticus 19:34), so we need to account for the fact that much of what was said in the NT about laws is in regard to the role of this large body of oral laws. In Matthew 23:2-4, Jesus was not criticising the Pharisees for teaching the people to obey what God had commanded them, but rather he was comparing all of their many oral laws to a heavy burden that they were placing on the people, which they wouldn't move a finger to help. So in Acts 15:10, they were simply expressing the same opinion of rabbinic oral laws that Jesus had expressed. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and Romans 10:5-10, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for them, so if they had been referring to the Mosaic law in Acts 15:10 as being a burden that neither their fathers or they could bear, then they would be directly contradicting God. In 1 John 5:3, it confirms that the commands of God are not burdensome.

Furthermore, God has never given anyone the authority to countermand Him and we must obey God rather than man, so even if you remain unpersuaded by me and persist in thinking that the Jerusalem Council was speaking against Gentiles obeying God's commands, you should nevertheless think that Gentiles should get the privilege continuing to obey God's law and reject the Jerusalem Council. I mean when it comes down to it, are Gentiles followers of God or of the Jerusalem Council? I don't think it needs to come down to that because I don't think that is what the Jerusalem Council was saying, but it is problematic for those who think the they were speaking against Gentiles obeying any of God's commands. If they had done that, then the Jerusalem Council would have been sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32, they would have been ignoring Messiah's warning in Matthew 5:19, and they would have needed to repent.

Consider Romans 3:28-31: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."


Thus in justification, Christ justifies though his (New) covenant which he made with God the Father and which is mediated through the Holy Spirit (Hebrew 9:13-15). Romans 3:28 is emphatic that a man is justified WITHOUT the law (i.e. without our own good works of law keeping)! The next chapter gives the example of Abraham, who was NOT justified by his own works (Romans 4:2), in fact all people, including Abraham are justified without their own good works see Romans 4:5 and note that only he who does NOT work is justified: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather our faith holds the law, however, you just used these verses to argue the exact opposite. The issue is that Christians often make the mistake of thinking that Paul speaking against obeying the law for the purpose of becoming justified implies that the law had this purpose at some point in time, when the reality is that the law was never given for that purpose, and in fact trying to obey the law for that purpose is a legalistic perversion of it. As you pointed out, Romans 4:1-8 states that Abraham was justified by faith, so God did not need to provide an alternative and unobtainable method of becoming justified when a perfectly good method of becoming justified by faith was already in place. It does not follow that because we shouldn't obey the law for a purpose for which it was never intended that therefore we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was intended.

In John 14:15, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands, so obedience to God's law has always been a way for us to demonstrate our love for Him. In Deuteronomy 6:24 and Deuteronomy 10:13, God said that we He commanded was for our own good, so the people who believed that what God said was true demonstrated their faith in Him about how they should live by living in obedience to His commands, for the righteous shall live by faith. In Hebrews 11, it is full of examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's commands, so obedience to God's law has always been about demonstrating our love and our faith in God and thereby growing in a relationship with Him. That is how the Israelites who followed God lived by faith and how our faith is to uphold to the law. We have never been justified by our obedience to God's law, but rather the one and only way to become justified has only ever been by faith apart from the law, and it is by that same faith that we are to live in obedience to the law.

So God only justifies those who do not work; which must come as a shock to so many millions of evangelical Christians who claim that they are faithful tithing today, the 7th Day Adventists, and others such as Roman Catholics who confuse sanctification (where our own good works do play a part), with Justification, (where our good works contribute absolutely ZERO, nada, nothing to our own justification as in Romans 3:28-4:5). However, please don't misunderstand me, as before our fellow human beings, in sanctification, our good works do indeed sanctify us, but they cannot justify us before God. James uses the same example of Abraham, and he then explains that Abraham’s good works, before his fellow man (James 2:14), did indeed justify him (but not in a legal forensic act of Justification before God), but in sanctification (before other men who saw his good deeds).

The problem is that the moment I speak about obeying God's law, most people make the error of thinking that I am talking about trying to become justified in spite of the fact Paul spent a lot of time hammering home the point that obeying the law was not about trying to become justified and that we are justified by faith apart from the law. Obeying the Mosaic law is among other purposes about demonstrating our love for God and our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), about demonstrating our faith in God in regard to how we should live (Deuteronomy 6:20-24), growing in a relationship with Messiah for righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4), about following Messiah's commands and his example of obedience (1 John 2:3-6), about being his disciple (Matthew 28:16-20), about being trained by grace to be like Christ is doing what God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good, about repenting from doing what God has revealed to be sin (Titus 2:11-14), about being a light to the world (Isaiah 2:2-3), about reflecting God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12), about refraining from following Israel's example of disobedience (1 Corinthians 10:1-3), about working out our salvation (Philippians 2:12), about being sanctified (Romans 6:16-19), about freedom (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), about delighting in God (Romans 7:22), about being blessed (Deuteronomy 30:15-20), about entering into life that is life (Matthew 19:17), about following the way where we will find rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16-19, Matthew 11:28-30), about becoming an obedient servant of God (1 Corinthians 7:22), about being redeemed from lawlessness (Titus 2:14), about teaching us about God (Exodus 34:6-7), and about what we are to do because we have been justified (Ephesians 2:10), but it has never been about what we need to do in order to become justified through our own effort or about what we need to do to inherit the promise.
 
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