Thought experiment: *IF* there were a global flood, what would we expect to see?

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laptoppop

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OK, I have a bunch of ideas on my own, but I am very interested in what others would add/subtract and why. If there were a global flood of the type you would have if taking the first part of Genesis literally, what would you expect the resulting evidence to look like?

This is not a thread to debate if there were a flood -- there are plenty of those. ;) Rather, I think it could be helpful to jointly think about what we would expect from such an event.
-lee-
 

random_guy

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laptoppop said:
OK, I have a bunch of ideas on my own, but I am very interested in what others would add/subtract and why. If there were a global flood of the type you would have if taking the first part of Genesis literally, what would you expect the resulting evidence to look like?

This is not a thread to debate if there were a flood -- there are plenty of those. ;) Rather, I think it could be helpful to jointly think about what we would expect from such an event.
-lee-

I like this idea. One thing would be fossils would be sorted in some sort of fashion, like heavier animals being on the bottom, and lighter animals on top. I would also expect to see swimming animal's fossils either throughout the layer, or near the top.
 
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laptoppop

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random_guy said:
I like this idea. One thing would be fossils would be sorted in some sort of fashion, like heavier animals being on the bottom, and lighter animals on top. I would also expect to see swimming animal's fossils either throughout the layer, or near the top.
I guess I'd probably expect to see sorting some of the time, and other times, a bit of a jumble from rougher waters. I'd also expect this to not be very orderly all the time -- I'd expect out of order layers and objects going between layers, etc.
-lee-
 
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random_guy

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laptoppop said:
I guess I'd probably expect to see sorting some of the time, and other times, a bit of a jumble from rougher waters. I'd also expect this to not be very orderly all the time -- I'd expect out of order layers and objects going between layers, etc.
-lee-

I agree. It would be very turbulent, so I would expect some jumbles, but there would be some sort of sorting factor. I'm no physicists, though, so I don't know how it would sort out (by density, by size, by volume?). However, for sediment, it would also be sorted in some way. For example, soil type #1, soil type #2, soil type #3, etc..., but I wouldn't expect anything like soil type #1, soil type#2, soil type#1, etc...

Anothing I was thinking of related to biology was if we place the timeline of the Flood about 6000 years ago then I would also expect that all living things would have a genetic bottle neck, like the cheetah does. This is due to the wiping out of the gene pool of the populations. However, aquatic animals wouldn't have this bottleneck effect.
 
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gluadys

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I would expect plant fossils to be much more mixed with flowering plants and their pollen throughout the whole layer(s), not just in the upper layer(s).

I would expect large animals of all classes (mammal, bird, reptile) to be found in lower layer(s) than light animals such as insects.
 
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laptoppop

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Good discussion!
Regarding plants -- how sturdy are they as opposed to animals? Do they require "gentler" conditions? (I just don't know if there is any difference)

In terms of sorting - Guy Berthault has demonstrated that multiple layers can form at angles and at the same time. I duplicated a fraction of his work with my son in my front yard using a fishtank. We *did* see 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1 etc. type of layering -- all forming at the same time. Pretty crazy, but coming out of turbulent water is different than settling out of calm water.
-lee-
 
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The Lady Kate

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laptoppop said:
Can you post more info on what you mean by a bottleneck effect? Seems reasonable and intriguing.
Thanks,
-lee-

Well, I'm no geneticist, but if every one of a certain kind of animal is decended from one pair a few thousand years ago, we'd be seeing that in their DNA -- or at least, far less diversity then we currently do.
 
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random_guy

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laptoppop said:
Can you post more info on what you mean by a bottleneck effect? Seems reasonable and intriguing.
Thanks,
-lee-

From what I understand is by examining the genetic diversity of a species, scientists can figure out from mutation rates if the population was reduced by a huge amount.

from wiki said:
Wisent, also called European bison, faced extinction in the early 20th century. The 360,000 animals living in 2000 are all descended from 12 individuals and only two distinct Y chromosomes are left in the species. The population of American Bison fell due to overhunting, nearly leading to extinction around the year 1890 and has since begun to recover.
A classic example of a population bottleneck is that of the Northern Elephant Seals, whose population fell to about 30 in the 1890s although it now numbers in the tens of thousands. Another example are Cheetahs, which are so closely related to each other that skin grafts from one cheetah to another do not provoke immune responses, thus suggesting an extreme population bottleneck in the past. Another largely bottlenecked species is the Golden Hamster, of which the vast majority are descended from a single litter found in the Syrian desert around 1930.
According to a paper published in 2002, the genome of the Giant Panda shows evidence of a severe bottleneck that took place about 43,000 years ago1. There is also evidence of at least one primate species that suffered from a bottleneck around this time scale.
Sometimes further deductions can be inferred from an observed population bottleneck. Among the Galápagos Islands giant tortoises (themselves a prime example of a founder effect), the comparatively large population on the slopes of Alcedo volcano is significantly less diverse than four other tortoise populations on the same island. Researchers' DNA analysis dates the bottleneck around 88,000 years before present (YBP), according to a notice in Science, October 3, 2003. About 100,000 YBP the volcano erupted violently, burying much of the tortoise habitat deep in pumice and ash. The coincidence is suggestive.

I would expect the bottleneck to show up in all land animals, all pointing to about the same time, and I would expect that it wouldn't show up in aquatic animals.
 
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laptoppop

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The Lady Kate said:
Well, I'm no geneticist, but if every one of a certain kind of animal is decended from one pair a few thousand years ago, we'd be seeing that in their DNA -- or at least, far less diversity then we currently do.
Fair enough - and certainly a valid topic for discussion. In thinking about it, for this thread, I recommend we stay focused on the flood (not an Ark, etc.)
-lee-
 
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random_guy

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laptoppop said:
Good discussion!
Regarding plants -- how sturdy are they as opposed to animals? Do they require "gentler" conditions? (I just don't know if there is any difference)

In terms of sorting - Guy Berthault has demonstrated that multiple layers can form at angles and at the same time. I duplicated a fraction of his work with my son in my front yard using a fishtank. We *did* see 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1 etc. type of layering -- all forming at the same time. Pretty crazy, but coming out of turbulent water is different than settling out of calm water.
-lee-

I didn't know that about the sorting. I wonder how it would change depending on what sediments were used, and how turbulent the water is. It would be great if someone would repeat the experiment and write it up to submit to a journal. I would see no reason why it would be rejected if it was carefully documented. Then Creationists would also have a paper in a scientific journal. That would be really great if someone did do this, because one thing that I find unconvicing with Creationism is the lack of papers. This could be an excellent example of good science.

As for plants, I think one thing that doesn't matter too much on the fragility of plants is the pollen. I would expect the pollen of all plants to be mixed together in all layers with pollen.
 
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laptoppop

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Actually Guy's experiments were written up and accepted in a peer reviewed journal. I don't have the details at hand, but Google is your friend. ;)

You are absolutely right about it depending on different things. Offhand, I can think of a few variables - temperature, dissolved solids, flow of water, characteristic of the bottom -- I know I'm forgetting a few more. The bottom line is that it doesn't take much at all to disturb the formation of one layer and cause another layer to start forming, or to even go into erosion instead of deposition.

Local floods have huge variations depending on where you are. Isn't it reasonable to expect a global flood would have even greater variations, as well as areas that were relatively similar? Isn't it also reasonable to postulate that these areas would be changing dynamically during the event?
-lee-
 
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shernren

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To add on to what Gluadys said, we should be able to detect this genetic difference between land and aquatic animals today. We should be able to take the genomic diversity of a particular aquatic clade, compare it to the genomic diversity of a comparable land clade, and see that the land clade has suffered a tremendous bottleneck at some point in the recent past.

It wouldn't be that hard to detect if anybody actually took it seriously. This is a crude and probably slightly misleading analogy, but imagine if I had a massive psychic book-burning machine that suddenly destroyed all traces of English language in the world except for Romeo and Juliet and The Tempest. A hundred years later, I would expect to see people talking in Shakespearean English and composing nothing but sonnets and poetic dramas. The destruction of diversity produces a very noticeable effect.

Also, I wouldn't expect to see much biogeographical sorting. I would expect to see American fossil strata, say, contain a good proportion of fossils which belong in Africa or Asia. Hydrological sorting shouldn't care where an animal started from to determine where to plonk it down in a rapid flood fossil record.
 
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Mallon

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I would NOT expect to see footprints from terrestrial animals found throughout the rock record, given that terretrial animals do not generally tend to amble along floodbeds while miles of raging water tower above them. (And even if they did, the supposed catastrophic nature of the Flood would completely wipe out the traces left behind.)

Trouble is, this is exactly what we see in the fossil record.
 
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shernren

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I would expect such a mixed up mess that not much of anything could be definitely determined by studying it.

But instead of a chaotically mixed-up mess, one sees clear biogeographical and biotemporal stratification in the sequence of fossil deposition.
 
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gluadys

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Mallon said:
I would NOT expect to see footprints from terrestrial animals found throughout the rock record, given that terretrial animals do not generally tend to amble along floodbeds while miles of raging water tower above them. (And even if they did, the supposed catastrophic nature of the Flood would completely wipe out the traces left behind.)

Trouble is, this is exactly what we see in the fossil record.

This is an important point. It is not sufficient to determine what we would expect to see. To complete the picture we need to establish what we would not expect to see.

Even if we don't find what we expect to see, this does not definitively rule out a global flood. Lack of evidence is never conclusive in itself.

But to find what we do not expect to see, to find evidence that could not be there if a flood had occurred, that is definitive evidence that the flood was not global.

The only way such evidence could exist would be if it was placed there miraculously. But that line of thought suggests that God wanted to hide the fact of the flood. And that doesn't make any sense. Why reveal a flood in scripture yet hide it in the physical evidence?
 
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laptoppop

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gluadys said:
This is an important point. It is not sufficient to determine what we would expect to see. To complete the picture we need to establish what we would not expect to see.
I totally agree.
-lee-
 
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Mallon

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gluadys said:
This is an important point. It is not sufficient to determine what we would expect to see. To complete the picture we need to establish what we would not expect to see.
Indeed. And I have yet to see a YEC address the serious issue of fossilized footprints from terrestrial tetrapods.
I asked creationist Bruce Malone about this on the local talk radio a month or two ago. I let him ramble on for a while about the catastrophic nature of the Flood, about how it carved the Grand Cayon and the like. Then I asked him about trace fossils and footprints. He was slow to answer, but his reply essentially amounted to 'The Flood was catastrophic where we don't find footprints, and calm where we do.'
Talk about dishonesty. Your know your position is in trouble when you're forced to make up unsubstantiated stories on the spot in order to keep your beliefs intact.
 
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