Those who will never believe

[98cwitr]

I don't see what God being almighty has to do with, where God created evil people. You use that first which says God takes care of both the evil and the good to say God created evil. We have already covered what evil is and where it came from which points to free will. Now I am trying to make clear on why you believe God created people who are evil?I do not believe God create evil or evil people, i think a persons choices determine that and by default we are born evil. Please show where God created evil then. Sense you say God created both Good and evil people, is that your position?

Also by pulling a one line from the Bible out of context and using it to say what you want, you are proof-texting, which means using the bible incorrectly taking it out of context. The part you quoted has to do with treating people a certain way.

Where God created evil? KJV Isaiah 45:7

God created Satan with full foreknowledge of what he'd do.
God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden with full foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would eat from it.

And before you grab your pitchforks and torches and call me a heretic, I don't believe God "authored" sin. I do believe, that if my two assumptions are true, God permitted sin to come into the world. That God created nothing that was pure evil from the start, but knew it would become evil regardless. Since we're all evil, and thus must be redeemed or perish, it will all bring Him Glory from those who love Him. As to truly why this is, why all aren't made that will glorify Him, I don't know...other than to say it was His Will. I just keep returning to Romans 9:15-22 for that answer over and over, because I'm not satisfied with the results.

 

[98cwitr]

Stats

We so far have one [real] answer to the question...and a whole bunch of other posts that are dancing around the question and assumptions. Can we stop dancing now? I have two left feet

 

[Bluelion]

Where God created evil? KJV Isaiah 45:7

God created Satan with full foreknowledge of what he'd do.
God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden with full foreknowledge that Adam and Eve would eat from it.

And before you grab your pitchforks and torches and call me a heretic, I don't believe God "authored" sin. I do believe, that if my two assumptions are true, God permitted sin to come into the world. That God created nothing that was pure evil from the start, but knew it would become evil regardless. Since we're all evil, and thus must be redeemed or perish, it will all bring Him Glory from those who love Him. As to truly why this is, why all aren't made that will glorify Him, I don't know...other than to say it was His Will. I just keep returning to Romans 9:15-22 for that answer over and over, because I'm not satisfied with the results.

Isa 45
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

So you see God was not referring to Him creating evil but sending good and bad times. Such as the drought for 7 years.

We are taught in school to look at more than one translation.

If i know my son is going to steal and i do everything I can to stop Him with out interfering with His free will, does that then mean I made my son steal because I knew He would and did not stop him? That seems to be your logic with God created evil, He knew it would come to be so there for he created it, it is flawed logic at best.

WHat this really is about is a Calvinist view.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
Rom 9
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

People use this to say God selected people for salvation before hand, that is not what it says it says for glory. All of Rom 9 Is talking about the Jews and their unbelieving and rejecting gentiles. This passage I have posted is saying that God uses both Good and evil to work His will and for His glory. Siting Pharaoh who He used to show His power. It is not saying a person has no choice, that free will does not exist. It says God uses both Good and evil.

I have no need to debate Calvinist theories yet again. I thought you were asking a real questions, but now it looks like you have a Calvinist agenda to spread that doctrine. It certainly does not look like you are seeking answers but rather you know already what you want the answer to be and it is the only one you will accept. So i will leave you to it. Good day.

 

[mikedsjr]

I hate to ask a question before answering a question, but here we go: What law was there between Adam and Moses? it obviously wasn't the Mosaic Law. I only ask that because its a good question that you raised? and It causes me think for minute. Was this physical Death or Spiritual Death? It seems to be spiritual Death in Question not physical because Paul in Romans 7:9 was spiritual death of the soul. Obviously by the law he didn't physically die on the spot. Indeed even, Genesis 3:21, Just like the Mosaic Law the lord shed blood by the sacrifice of an animal (Like the shed blood of Christ) to make coats of skin to Cover Adam and Eve .

Reading Romans 5 seems to tell us there was not a oral or written law from God, but still judged for their sins. Do you agree?

I personally read the death as both spiritually and physically. They died spiritually instantly when Adam ate. But Romans 5 speaks of death as physical.

What are your thoughts?

 

[98cwitr]

Blue...look at the KJV translation plz. Doesn't it make you want to reject the KJV as I have (Genesis 22:1 vs James 1:13)

 

[Bluelion]

Blue...look at the KJV translation plz. Doesn't it make you want to reject the KJV as I have (Genesis 22:1 vs James 1:13)

I see your point here is the ASv which is the most literal translation. Gen 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham. And he said, Here am I.

This is why we read many translation when we don't understand most say the same thing in different words. I would urge you to use many.

Your reading it literal also, you got to remember, the Bible is literal in some parts but not in others and some times it is both. You need guides. Pray before you read, and listen to what truth is you will feel it. A good rule is to say God is always right and the bible does not contradicted its self, so when it appears to do so, say I don't understand and then seek to understand it it with out judgement wait for the answer. This is faith that God blessed His word, faith in God that He will lead you.

I had the same issue you did a while back. i talk about my education sometimes on here because until i started school with a bible major i did not understand much of the Bible. Getting a good education in the field is best, next is to get the education by some one who has it, this is why God said to yield to the elders in the church.

God said until you humble your self as a child you will not see heaven. that is the Key to the Bible. How does a child read? Some people say believing everything, yes, but also asking their Father what everything means. When they do not understand the say Dad what does that mean? what is that dad? what do you mean dad. Dad is Father God, if you ask God these questions while you read as a child He will answer you in His time. But you must seek, look to God not people, through people God will reveal the truth. I trust God with my soul, the only one I do. i understand people will let me down every time if I trust them perfectly, and I will let them down because of our sinful nature, but God is Faithful, He never fails.

 

[twin1954]

I hate to ask a question before answering a question, but here we go: What law was there between Adam and Moses? it obviously wasn't the Mosaic Law. I only ask that because its a good question that you raised? and It causes me think for minute. Was this physical Death or Spiritual Death? It seems to be spiritual Death in Question not physical because Paul in Romans 7:9 was spiritual death of the soul. Obviously by the law he didn't physically die on the spot. Indeed even, Genesis 3:21, Just like the Mosaic Law the lord shed blood by the sacrifice of an animal (Like the shed blood of Christ) to make coats of skin to Cover Adam and Eve .

I hope that you don't mind if I answer this post. If you do then just ignore it.

The law that existed between Adam and Moses was the law that we all have by nature. Paul, in Rom. 2:14-15 speaks of the Gentiles not having the Sinaiatic law yet they do those things contained in the law. To illustrate what he is saying; they knew that murder was wrong and adultery was wrong and theft was wrong without the law to tell them so. It is the natural moral nature that God created man with. It is part of the image of God that He created man in.

If you look at the passage in Gen. 2:17 you will find that God promised that Adam would die in the day that he ate of the fruit. He died spiritually in that day but lived hundreds of years after physically before he died. So what Paul is speaking of in Rom. 5 is actually both. In Adam we all died spiritually since he died that very day spiritually and could not pass on by natural generation spiritual life. But he also passed on physical death and was able to pass that on by natural generation.

Now the subject of Rom. 5:10-21 is what is known as Federal Headship. What Paul is teaching is that in exactly the same way that all mankind sinned in Adam when he sinned and are accounted sinners because of his sin in that we are his seed by natural generation all who are of the seed of Christ by Spiritual generation are counted as holy and righteous. In Christ we have kept all the demands of the law and righteousness. As Paul says in 1Cor. 15:22 in Adam all died even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Of course we must understand that the physical is Adam and the spiritual is Christ who is the last Adam.

We have an example of what I am taking about in Heb. 7:9,10
(Heb 7:9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

(Heb 7:10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

What Abraham did was counted as though Levi had done it even though he wasn't born yet.

Actually our system of government in the US is patterned after the headship view. Our representatives speak for us in the Congress and everything that they do is as though we had done it ourselves.

If you have any questions please fell free to ask.

 

[Emmy]

Dear cwitr. God made us all, we are all made in God`s image, and God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. We live in an imperfect world, where many things are not as they should be. But we were made in
GOD`S IMAGE, and God will not force us, neither to do good, or not to do good. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The
second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself.
Verse 40 even tells: " on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our Love, and our neighbour wants us to treat them as we would love to be treated. I do admit that it does not come easy to us,
it is easier to go our own wilful way, BUT God does not want us to. We are to Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. ( treat all equal, with love and kindness and compassion) Love is very catching and we will find that people will treat us as we treat people. Life will be enjoyable and love will be our second nature.
The Holy Spirit with help us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change from being selfish and unloving to be loving, caring and always friendly. God will see our loving efforts, and God will keep blessing us. We might fall and forget at times,
but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on loving and caring. People around us will join and all will change.
I is not hard, and we are made in God`s image. The world will notice and want to join us. Why not try it ???
I say this with love, cwitr. Greetings fro Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[98cwitr]

Emmy, thanks for the positive words...but it doesn't address the OP at all ma'am.

 

[98cwitr]

I see your point here is the ASv which is the most literal translation. Gen 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham. And he said, Here am I.

This is why we read many translation when we don't understand most say the same thing in different words. I would urge you to use many.

Your reading it literal also, you got to remember, the Bible is literal in some parts but not in others and some times it is both. You need guides. Pray before you read, and listen to what truth is you will feel it. A good rule is to say God is always right and the bible does not contradicted its self, so when it appears to do so, say I don't understand and then seek to understand it it with out judgement wait for the answer. This is faith that God blessed His word, faith in God that He will lead you.

I had the same issue you did a while back. i talk about my education sometimes on here because until i started school with a bible major i did not understand much of the Bible. Getting a good education in the field is best, next is to get the education by some one who has it, this is why God said to yield to the elders in the church.

God said until you humble your self as a child you will not see heaven. that is the Key to the Bible. How does a child read? Some people say believing everything, yes, but also asking their Father what everything means. When they do not understand the say Dad what does that mean? what is that dad? what do you mean dad. Dad is Father God, if you ask God these questions while you read as a child He will answer you in His time. But you must seek, look to God not people, through people God will reveal the truth. I trust God with my soul, the only one I do. i understand people will let me down every time if I trust them perfectly, and I will let them down because of our sinful nature, but God is Faithful, He never fails.

Trust me when I say, Blue...I've prayed and prayed for discernment, and that has led me away from the KJV and while the NIV isn't perfect, it's my go-to. Education has plenty of value, but when fallible man tries to teach other fallible men the lines get blurred and crossed...and things like universalism springs into consciousness. I don't need another person to tell me what the proper translation is, I need the Holy Spirit. I am convinced that the first two assumptions are true, and thus because of Romans 9, I can come to no other conclusion that God creates people who will never believe simply to show His glory and power to the elect, whom He loves.

I would love to believe that God is not able to see all future events and hearts, because then I would be able to believe things like free will and that predestination isn't real...but I can't, because that's not the God of the Bible.

 

[Bluelion]

Trust me when I say, Blue...I've prayed and prayed for discernment, and that has led me away from the KJV and while the NIV isn't perfect, it's my go-to. Education has plenty of value, but when fallible man tries to teach other fallible men the lines get blurred and crossed...and things like universalism springs into consciousness. I don't need another person to tell me what the proper translation is, I need the Holy Spirit. I am convinced that the first two assumptions are true, and thus because of Romans 9, I can come to no other conclusion that God creates people who will never believe simply to show His glory and power to the elect, whom He loves.

I would love to believe that God is not able to see all future events and hearts, because then I would be able to believe things like free will and that predestination isn't real...but I can't, because that's not the God of the Bible.

Like I said your logic is faulty and your never addressed my statements about God and free will. I said If i know my son will steal and I do everything to stop Him with out interfering with free will does that mean I made him steal?

You already admitted Adam and Eve had a choice, You said why did God put the tree there in the first place knowing what they would do? If there is no free will God could have physical stop them from eating, so then you place blame on God who is with out fault instead of on Man who by very nature has faults. If there is no free will why does God say I am willing all be saved. How can God be willing all be saved if He made people for hell and suffering. Is God a lair a deceiver. How can He be willing all be saved if some people have no chance to come to God in the first place. Fact is you can say free will and it does not crotrodict, but you say elect and you have to ignore vast amounts of scripture to make it work.

 

[98cwitr]

Like I said your logic is faulty and your never addressed my statements about God and free will. I said If i know my son will steal and I do everything to stop Him with out interfering with free will does that mean I made him steal?

No, I'd say you did nothing to stop him. If you knew him as God knows us, you'd know exactly what to do to make him stop. You're trying to use a human analogy to define God's interactions with us...and it just doesn't fit.

You already admitted Adam and Eve had a choice, You said why did God put the tree there in the first place knowing what they would do? If there is no free will God could have physical stop them from eating, so then you place blame on God who is with out fault instead of on Man who by very nature has faults. If there is no free will why does God say I am willing all be saved. How can God be willing all be saved if He made people for hell and suffering. Is God a lair a deceiver. How can He be willing all be saved if some people have no chance to come to God in the first place. Fact is you can say free will and it does not crotrodict, but you say elect and you have to ignore vast amounts of scripture to make it work.

Not exactly, I admitted Adam and Eve perceived they had choice. With or without free will God could have intervened, and He chose not to. Where do you think God was the moment Eve took that bite? The fact that He didn't seems to be telling of His Will for the Fall, and no...there's no "blame." Why would someone blame someone else? Only if someone did something "wrong" right? Well, who are we to tell God what is wrong or right? Isn't He the one that defines right and wrong?

I don't believe He is willing that all would be saved. If that's true there would be no law, no conditions, no sin for all to be found in the instance of needing salvation. What are people really saved from? That is the wrath of God.

What Scripture must I ignore?

 

[royal priest]

Assumptions:

God is Omniscient; knowing all things, past, present, and future
God is the Creator; He created you and me

Proposed Question:

Why does God create people who will never believe?

You quoted Isaiah 29.16
Paul uses it in Romans 9.
Interestingly, he follows it with an answer to your question:
"[God] hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, 'Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?'
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus?
Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."

 

[98cwitr]

You quoted Isaiah 29.16
Paul uses it in Romans 9.
Interestingly, he follows it with an answer to your question:
"[God] hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, 'Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?'
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus?
Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."

Exactly. you and twin are the only ones who will acknowledge this as a firm and legitimate answer to the question. In today's age of godlessness, I applaud you.

 

[Bluelion]

No, I'd say you did nothing to stop him. If you knew him as God knows us, you'd know exactly what to do to make him stop. You're trying to use a human analogy to define God's interactions with us...and it just doesn't fit.



Not exactly, I admitted Adam and Eve perceived they had choice. With or without free will God could have intervened, and He chose not to. Where do you think God was the moment Eve took that bite? The fact that He didn't seems to be telling of His Will for the Fall, and no...there's no "blame." Why would someone blame someone else? Only if someone did something "wrong" right? Well, who are we to tell God what is wrong or right? Isn't He the one that defines right and wrong?

I don't believe He is willing that all would be saved. If that's true there would be no law, no conditions, no sin for all to be found in the instance of needing salvation. What are people really saved from? That is the wrath of God.

What Scripture must I ignore?

First I am using reason and logic. and it does fit. What about those people who nothing would make them stop? Because as God says they Love evil.

You don't believe God is willing all be saved? Then you do not believe God's word.

1 tim 2

NLT
3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 5 For,

There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone.

The Niv says the same thing It could not let me copy and paste from that book or I would have posted the NIV also.


2Peter 3

8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.


So what to you ignore oh those passages.

 

[royal priest]

In Genesis 15, there is a perfect example of God's longsuffering toward the vessels prepared for destruction.
God promises Abram the future home of his seed, Canaan. But God explains that they will not inherit the land until four generation pass. Why?
"for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
In this example, we see God suffering the Amorites four more generations of storing up wrath for themselves. Then God shows the riches of His grace to the Israelites through the demonstration of His wrath upon the Amorites when He cuts them down at last.

 

[98cwitr]

First I am using reason and logic. and it does fit. What about those people who nothing would make them stop? Because as God says they Love evil.

You don't believe God is willing all be saved? Then you do not believe God's word.

1 tim 2

NLT
3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 5 For,

There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6 He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone.

The Niv says the same thing It could not let me copy and paste from that book or I would have posted the NIV also.


2Peter 3

8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.


So what to you ignore oh those passages.

He is not willing that any [of you] should perish, but all [of you] come to repentance. Look at the original greek and see who Peter is talking to.

Otherwise, I can bring into question our understanding of His Omniscience. How can God want something that will not happen?

 

[Bluelion]

He is not willing that any [of you] should perish, but all [of you] come to repentance. Look at the original greek and see who Peter is talking to.

Otherwise, I can bring into question our understanding of His Omniscience. How can God want something that will not happen?

Like i said you ignore scripture now you will not accept your own NIV but say oh go back to the Greek. Sorry but you are selectively choosing what you want to believe and what you will follow.. You are now claiming you know better than the people who translated the Bible. 2 different translation I check agree it is everyone or all but you say no. Like I said in your other post you have you mind made up on what you want the answers to be, you want everyone to come to your answer.

You can question God being all knowing and all powerful and present every where all at once and everything else, but I do not question it.

 

[Bluelion]

Look at 2 Peter 3:9

the word any.

Word: tij

Pronounce: tis

Strongs Number: G5100

Orig: an enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object:--a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, - thing, -what), (+ that no-)thing, what(-soever), X wherewith, whom(-soever), whose(-soever).

Use:

Heb Strong:

1. 
   1) a certain, a certain one
   2) some, some time, a while

It doesn't matter you will fight kick and scream to see what you want. This has all been a game where you appear to ask a question while spreading Calvinist doctrine. I get sick of Hearing How the minority has it all right and no matter how much you show the other way they say no. That is not a debate that is wanting to be right. In a debate both sides are willing to change their view


Look at mat 28 :18 the great commission The Greek word all is the very same used in 1 Tim. So Jesus was not really given all authority under Heaven? We are not to go out a Preach to all?

Word: paj

Pronounce: pas

Strongs Number: G3956

Orig: including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Use: TDNT-5:886,795 Adjective

Heb Strong: H3605 H3617H3632 H3632 H7706 H8548 H8548

1. 
   1) individually
   1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
   2) collectively
   2a) some of all types
   ++++
   ..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts --some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)

Now your challenge Jesus authority.

 

[twin1954]

Blindness to both the English and Greek grammar is willful blindness. 2Pet. 3:9 clearly, according to both English and Greek, refers to the "us" not to all mankind. Rather than actually reading both the Greek and English what we presuppose is read into the passage.