Those who will never believe

[98cwitr]

The Spiritual divide is the key.

What do you mean?

 

[Winken]

Invisible Spiritual Creator created visible Spiritual Beings who were to produce, together, visible Spiritual Beings. Adam-Eve walked away from the process. They became lost. Their offspring became lost. The Creator asked Abram to renew the process. Those in that people group failed, miserably. The Creator, "God with us," Jesus, came to renew the process. Those lost over the ages could be found. There was / is eternal forgiveness in Jesus. There were, are now, and will be those who walk away.

 

[98cwitr]

Invisible Spiritual Creator created visible Spiritual Beings who were to produce, together, visible Spiritual Beings. Adam-Eve walked away from the process. They became lost. Their offspring became lost. The Creator asked Abram to renew the process. Those in that people group failed, miserably. The Creator, "God with us," Jesus, came to renew the process. Those lost over the ages could be found. There was / is eternal forgiveness in Jesus. There were, are now, and will be those who walk away.

I don't think we're any closer to answering the OP question. Give it a stab...or refute the two assumptions please. It *sounds* like you're refuting Assumption #2, but that's not quite clear to me at this point.

 

[Bluelion]

Blue, am I to understand this as your refutation of Assumption #2?

Actually it was to your first post 1. You assume they are from God, or God made them, yes? What if they are not from God and God did not make them but they are waste of Creation, those souls who never finished being create and followed God, so they simply became waste. You got to remember this is all theory, there is no bible proof which speaks one way or the other about what these people true are other than evil.

Maybe in answering your question it might help to ask a question?

What is evil? Where did it come from? This is what we are talking about Yes? wicked men who have no forgiveness and don't want it.

What evil is simple, going against God's word, breaking the law, rebelling against God. Where did it come from? from the first angel (satan) who decide not to obey God, evil was born at that moment. God did not create it, it is the by product of going against God. This is hard for Calvinist I understand because it speaks to free will even that of Angels. But it is truth.

Now Go back to the first question why did God create them? Well we go back and see they were never from God, but from that first angel which became brought evil. and evil man is not from God. Jesus spoke of this by saying you are from your father the father of lies(satan). While God gave them a body, they are not of spirit as God is. God is not a God of flesh.

why so many evil people? i don't know. I think it has something to do with Adam taking the battle between God and evil into his own body and nature by eating of the fruit. So now the battle of souls is fought out in this world through men and inside of men.

 

[Winken]

I don't think we're any closer to answering the OP question. Give it a stab...or refute the two assumptions please. It *sounds* like you're refuting Assumption #2, but that's not quite clear to me at this point.

(Why does God create people who will never believe?)

He doesn't. He created Adam-Eve in His own image. He did not create non-believers. Thereafter creation became a physical process, not Spiritual. God didn't create that process.

 

[mikedsjr]

Yes I do believe in original sin, which in my view is part of the nature of man. Adam already had the nature to sin but was innocent because he did not have knowledge of God's law which is the tree of good and evil. After he ate his eyes were opened and became guilty because then he had knowledge of evil and good. I believe babies are the same way. Being innocent because they have no knowledge of good and evil until they reach an age of accountability.

That isn't the traditional view of original sin.

 

[clemenslee]

What's the traditional view?

 

[98cwitr]

(Why does God create people who will never believe?)

He doesn't. He created Adam-Eve in His own image. He did not create non-believers. Thereafter creation became a physical process, not Spiritual. God didn't create that process.

Perfect. Now please provide scripture to support your claim to give it validity.

 

[98cwitr]

Actually it was to your first post 1. You assume they are from God, or God made them, yes? What if they are not from God and God did not make them but they are waste of Creation, those souls who never finished being create and followed God, so they simply became waste. You got to remember this is all theory, there is no bible proof which speaks one way or the other about what these people true are other than evil.

Maybe in answering your question it might help to ask a question?

What is evil? Where did it come from? This is what we are talking about Yes? wicked men who have no forgiveness and don't want it.

What evil is simple, going against God's word, breaking the law, rebelling against God. Where did it come from? from the first angel (satan) who decide not to obey God, evil was born at that moment. God did not create it, it is the by product of going against God. This is hard for Calvinist I understand because it speaks to free will even that of Angels. But it is truth.

Now Go back to the first question why did God create them? Well we go back and see they were never from God, but from that first angel which became brought evil. and evil man is not from God. Jesus spoke of this by saying you are from your father the father of lies(satan). While God gave them a body, they are not of spirit as God is. God is not a God of flesh.

why so many evil people? i don't know. I think it has something to do with Adam taking the battle between God and evil into his own body and nature by eating of the fruit. So now the battle of souls is fought out in this world through men and inside of men.

I assume that God created them (and all of us too), yes. Being "of God" and being "made by God" are two very different things in my perspective.

Evil came from Satan, who tempted Eve, who in turn had to capability to go against what God had commanded. The potential for sin was always there as long as the Tree of Knowledge existed. So then I must add a 2nd question to this rabbit hole: Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden with full foreknowledge that Eve and Adam would eat from it. Why did He give the command not to eat from it, with full foreknowledge that they would not obey?

 

[Bluelion]

I assume that God created them (and all of us too), yes. Being "of God" and being "made by God" are two very different things in my perspective.

Evil came from Satan, who tempted Eve, who in turn had to capability to go against what God had commanded. The potential for sin was always there as long as the Tree of Knowledge existed. So then I must add a 2nd question to this rabbit hole: Why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden with full foreknowledge that Eve and Adam would eat from it. Why did He give the command not to eat from it, with full foreknowledge that they would not obey?

sounds like free will to me

But sin came before the garden, Satan had sinned before man i believe because in the garden he was already cast down to a lower place. Knowledge was simply that to the angels they Know what will happen if they go against God yet some fall anyway. Man was different he was told what would happen but did not know what would happen.

If you say free will it sure does answer a lot of questions.

But you need to define what you mean by God created them and us too?

 

[mikedsjr]

What's the traditional view?

That Adam's sin made all people sinners. It's pretty much from most of Romans 5, but here is a snippet.

Romans 5:18-19

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[clemenslee]

That Adam's sin made all people sinners. It's pretty much from most of Romans 5, but here is a snippet.

Romans 5:18-19

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

I'm saying the same thing, We inherit Adams sin nature and its part of our nature of who we are being descended from him. But I'm not and no one else is responsible for Adams personal sin. Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Adams trespass led to condemnation of all men, not because we are responsible for Adams Personal transgression and sin, that's between him and God, but its because when he ate of the tree, The complete knowledge of God's law came forth and opened his eyes. Opened his eyes to what?: To good and evil/right or wrong which is the law of God. And if we break Gods law the penalty is death.

I brought up babies being innocent even though they have the nature of sin. Romans 5:13 - (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:13 is the exact same thing as Adam in the garden Sin was already part of his nature, but was innocent because he had no KNOWLEDGE of it. Can a baby have any knowledge of their sin? No - no child has any idea of their own personal sinful nature until they reach a certain age.

Romans 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[mikedsjr]

I'm saying the same thing, We inherit Adams sin nature and its part of our nature of who we are being descended from him. But I'm not and no one else is responsible for Adams personal sin. Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Adams trespass led to condemnation of all men, not because we are responsible for Adams Personal transgression and sin, that's between him and God, but its because when he ate of the tree, The complete knowledge of God's law came forth and opened his eyes. Opened his eyes to what?: To good and evil/right or wrong which is the law of God. And if we break Gods law the penalty is death.

I brought up babies being innocent even though they have the nature of sin. Romans 5:13 - (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:13 is the exact same thing as Adam in the garden Sin was already part of his nature, but was innocent because he had no KNOWLEDGE of it. Can a baby have any knowledge of their sin? No - no child has any idea of their own personal sinful nature until they reach a certain age.

Romans 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Would you agree Romans 5:13 is dealing with the time from Adam to Moses? If not, why? If so, why did people die? If you believe it does, but apply it to everyone, how do to make this jump?

 

[twin1954]

Assumptions:

God is Omniscient; knowing all things, past, present, and future
God is the Creator; He created you and me

Proposed Question:

Why does God create people who will never believe?

Paul answers your question.

(Rom 9:15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(Rom 9:16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

(Rom 9:17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(Rom 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

(Rom 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

(Rom 9:24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[98cwitr]

We finally have an answer...and using Scripture nevertheless! Well twin has, after two pages, provided the first solid answer to the OP question. Do we have rebuttals or refutations to the assumptions in the OP?

 

[98cwitr]

But you need to define what you mean by God created them and us too?

Create in a literal sense...as in "directly bring into existence or being". IOW, He made us to have physical life...you me and everyone else.

 

[clemenslee]

Would you agree Romans 5:13 is dealing with the time from Adam to Moses? If not, why? If so, why did people die? If you believe it does, but apply it to everyone, how do to make this jump?

I hate to ask a question before answering a question, but here we go: What law was there between Adam and Moses? it obviously wasn't the Mosaic Law. I only ask that because its a good question that you raised? and It causes me think for minute. Was this physical Death or Spiritual Death? It seems to be spiritual Death in Question not physical because Paul in Romans 7:9 was spiritual death of the soul. Obviously by the law he didn't physically die on the spot. Indeed even, Genesis 3:21, Just like the Mosaic Law the lord shed blood by the sacrifice of an animal (Like the shed blood of Christ) to make coats of skin to Cover Adam and Eve .

 

[Bluelion]

Create in a literal sense...as in "directly bring into existence or being". IOW, He made us to have physical life...you me and everyone else.

Yeah but the unsaved do not have life they are born dead, we only have life when we are reborn. So what did God make really? their bodies?

Jesus said God is not the God of the dead but of the living

 

[98cwitr]

Yeah but the unsaved do not have life they are born dead, we only have life when we are reborn. So what did God make really? their bodies?

Jesus said God is not the God of the dead but of the living

Yet is God not sovereign over ALL creation? Rain to the righteous and unrighteous? What about Pharaoh? What does Romans 9 say about his "purpose" prior to his "destruction?"

 

[Bluelion]

Yet is God not sovereign over ALL creation? Rain to the righteous and unrighteous? What about Pharaoh? What does Romans 9 say about his "purpose" prior to his "destruction?"

I don't see what God being almighty has to do with, where God created evil people. You use that first which says God takes care of both the evil and the good to say God created evil. We have already covered what evil is and where it came from which points to free will. Now I am trying to make clear on why you believe God created people who are evil?I do not believe God create evil or evil people, i think a persons choices determine that and by default we are born evil. Please show where God created evil then. Sense you say God created both Good and evil people, is that your position?

Also by pulling a one line from the Bible out of context and using it to say what you want, you are proof-texting, which means using the bible incorrectly taking it out of context. The part you quoted has to do with treating people a certain way.