Those who really love Jesus prove it -- unto eternal life

AllanV

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There is no obvious about it Zach...because none of the verses you speak of state anything about salvation.

Unlike the plethora of verses that speak of salvation and an eternal security.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged..."
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we ARE saved..."
1 Corinthians 15:2 "by which also you ARE saved..."
Luke 19: "And Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house...'"
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son HAS eternal life..."
John 5:24 "...and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life...."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."
John 6:54 "....drinks my blood HAS eternal life"
1 John 5:11 "...that God HAS GIVEN us eternal life...."

Verse after verse after verse tell you that once you are saved, you HAVE eternal life....That Salvation is not something for the future but is a state of being now. Christ is never spoken of as "going to be your salvation" but instead is always referred to "as our salvation".

It is only when you add to the meaning of words and do not take the Bible for the simple truth that it is that you come into your man made doctrines of relying upon man own self for salvation. And that is exactly what you are doing Zach...you do not trust that God can keep you saved, so you have put your trust in yourself to keep your salvation. Me I prefer to trust that God is much more capable of keeping me safe than I am. And the gratitude I have for that is displayed in my works. I have become approved by God because I trust in God. The Israelite's did not surrender to God and trust God, and He had them wander the wilderness for 40 years. Don't be like a Israelite, put your trust in God and have faith in the knowledge that He will keep you safe, safer than you could ever manage on your own.

1 Corinthians 15:2 is interesting. In memory could be in the mind. Faith needs to be active because healing (salvation) is evident together with it. scriptures are difficult and can be made to mean whatever the intellect decides. This is only written because after many years and many doctrines and different interpretations who knows the truth.
 
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AllanV

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1 Corinthians 15:2 is interesting. In memory could be in the mind. Faith needs to be active because healing (salvation) is evident together with it. scriptures are difficult and can be made to mean whatever the intellect decides. This is only written because after many years and many doctrines and different interpretations who knows the truth.

Another thought, faith is active and continuous and must be, just as the Eternal God manifests everything seen instantly continuously then eternal life will be the reward without judgement.
 
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brotherjerry

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Actually Scripture is easy. Man makes it difficult....which is normal for man...We still fall for the "surely you won't die" shtick. Satan has been using it for years...."Surely God did not mean that!" when it comes to the Bible...that is why we must always take the Bible as literal unless it is obviously not or impossible to do so. Meaning we have to realize that metaphors were utilized...look at the parables for example.
 
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AllanV

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Actually Scripture is easy. Man makes it difficult....which is normal for man...We still fall for the "surely you won't die" shtick. Satan has been using it for years...."Surely God did not mean that!" when it comes to the Bible...that is why we must always take the Bible as literal unless it is obviously not or impossible to do so. Meaning we have to realize that metaphors were utilized...look at the parables for example.
That appears to be the premise of most in the church who say they are under grace.
It seems though there is a way to enter the kingdom now and Jesus showed by example in the way he fasted in the desert and exposed Satan and then expelled him.
Everyone is aware that we all are sinners but Jesus sacrifice has torn the veil in the temple. If the temple is the body and the veil is in the mind then this suggests that the mind can go beyond and deeper than where it usually is. The natural mind is encumbered with attachments and fixtures that tempt everyone into all their behavior and even words have an emphasis to make a point. All these come off an impure heart.
There must be a case for purifying the self. It is described as something to attain to in scriptures.
 
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EmSw

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That appears to be the premise of most in the church who say they are under grace.
It seems though there is a way to enter the kingdom now and Jesus showed by example in the way he fasted in the desert and exposed Satan and then expelled him.
Everyone is aware that we all are sinners but Jesus sacrifice has torn the veil in the temple. If the temple is the body and the veil is in the mind then this suggests that the mind can go beyond and deeper than where it usually is. The natural mind is encumbered with attachments and fixtures that tempt everyone into all their behavior and even words have an emphasis to make a point. All these come off an impure heart.
There must be a case for purifying the self. It is described as something to attain to in scriptures.

You are correct Allan. The Bible does give us a way to purify our hearts. However, those who talk of the authority and sovereignty of the Bible, will absolutely deny the truth in God's word.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Many will wholeheartedly fight against this verse as a way for man to cleanse his heart. Man's pride will keep him from casting away all his transgressions; that is why God gives grace to the humble. Once a man realizes the utter filthiness of his heart, and humbles himself under the hand of God, then God will give him grace to cast away his transgression to make himself a new heart and new spirit.
 
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AllanV

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You are correct Allan. The Bible does give us a way to purify our hearts. However, those who talk of the authority and sovereignty of the Bible, will absolutely deny the truth in God's word.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Many will wholeheartedly fight against this verse as a way for man to cleanse his heart. Man's pride will keep him from casting away all his transgressions; that is why God gives grace to the humble. Once a man realizes the utter filthiness of his heart, and humbles himself under the hand of God, then God will give him grace to cast away his transgression to make himself a new heart and new spirit.

Thanks for that, the whole transformation is difficult though, because it is a transformation and renewal in the mind. People tend to build and develop a personality that looks good in front of others and also accumulates possessions but hides and masks the true inner heart condition. It is better to admit being a sinner and many revel in the fact but there must be a way where there is individual victory over it. Immortality is at stake.

The mind and heart need to be refocused. Personal experience must account for something.
By actively turning the mind away from my own life, work, memories and bonding with the personalities of friends and family during a fast, a purity was noticed. By reading scripture, meditating on verses and believing and speaking revelation from that belief, and praying to be pure and holy changes were noticed. Over 3 weeks attachments or fixtures within my personality were magnified and exposed as having a hold on my will and tempted me to act out. The fast allowed these personality traits to be magnified, discovered and expelled by commanding them to go. It was actually a bit desperate. It is all in the mind.

The scriptures say the body is to be presented as a living sacrifice.

The heart and spirit were then free to break deeply and the divine nature covered with an incomprehensible gentleness and quietness. The Love in this nature was energized by God the Eternal Father. My will is perfectly aligned with the Will of the Father.
The natural mind will resist this renewal therefore the Spirit leads when one is obedient to it by allowing it to lead.
This is the cross of Christ. Paul relates that many will confess Christ but deny His cross.
 
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ZacharyB

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Another thought, faith is active and continuous and must be,
just as the Eternal God manifests everything seen instantly continuously,
then eternal life will be the reward without judgement.
Yes, you have the correct understanding.
The NT makes it clear that salvation is a life-long process.
This should be obvious just from the 10 or so verses which teach:
one's faith must endure until the end of life to receive eternal life.
Backing them up are other verses that speak of falling away,
drawing back, etc., which result in falling from grace, etc.
Plus, all of this was written to believers in churches.

Not to mention "The Hard Sayings of Jesus",
which are way beyond "hard" in my estimation!
He says, "Fear God who is able to cast you into hell",
which, of course, was spoken/written to everyone.

Those deceived ones who preach an "easy believism"
unto salvation will receive the greater condemnation!
 
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ZacharyB

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Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:
for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
IMO, referring to the OT is rather foolhardy ...
since we are under a new and better covenant!
People will use the excuse that the OT verses don't apply to us.

"Easy believism" in the Lord Jesus is mucho easier than
taking the many OT and NT warnings into account,
which say that actions speak louder than words.

Believers must really PROVE their faith ... that's what all
the verses about the necessity of TESTING are all about.
Right?
 
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brotherjerry

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Sorry Zach but that is silly. While we are under a new Covenant...the OT is not "foolhardy". And referring to it is far from that as well. Everything in the OT points to Christ just as much as everything in the NT is about Christ. Why do you think Christ as well as the Apostles referred to the OT to prove their point? you cannot understand Who Christ is, and who the Father is without understanding and utilizing the OT.

And salvation is not an ongoing process...you confuse it with sanctification. Which is often the case in works based salvation doctrines.

The Bible makes it clear that Christ IS our salvation. Period...Christ is not becoming our Salvation, He is not working on being our salvation, HE IS our salvation. There is nothing more Christ has to do in order to become our salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, you have the correct understanding.
The NT makes it clear that salvation is a life-long process.
This should be obvious just from the 10 or so verses which teach:
one's faith must endure until the end of life to receive eternal life.
Except no verse says this. The verse in Matt 24 says those who endure to the "end" will be saved. Now, one must prove that "end" refers to the end of life for every believer in every generation. Good luck with that, because the context is limited to the 7 year period called the tribulation.

Second, one must also prove that "saved" refers specifically to saving faith. It is used in the Bible MORE in the context of physical deliverance from danger than saving faith.

Backing them up are other verses that speak of falling away,
Yet, NONE of these so-called back up verses say anything about salvation or eternal life that is in danger of being lost.

drawing back, etc., which result in falling from grace, etc.
One must prove that any of these things actually results in loss of salvation.[/QUOTE]
Proving what, specifically?

Not to mention "The Hard Sayings of Jesus",
which are way beyond "hard" in my estimation!
He says, "Fear God who is able to cast you into hell",
which, of course, was spoken/written to everyone.
Instead of teaching that one can lose salvation for any reason, Jesus taught the opposite; that all He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 3:16, 10:28.

Those deceived ones who preach an "easy believism"
unto salvation will receive the greater condemnation!
The deception is teaching loss of salvation.

Jesus was very clear about the eternal security of those who have been given eternal life.

Please quote any verse that outright warns that either salvation or eternal life may be lost. But there aren't any.

Just verses assumed to teach that idea. But don't.
 
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EmSw

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IMO, referring to the OT is rather foolhardy ...
since we are under a new and better covenant!
People will use the excuse that the OT verses don't apply to us.

"Easy believism" in the Lord Jesus is mucho easier than
taking the many OT and NT warnings into account,
which say that actions speak louder than words.

Believers must really PROVE their faith ... that's what all
the verses about the necessity of TESTING are all about.
Right?

Here you go Zachary -

Matthew 23
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.


Ephesians 4
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Colossians 3
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
 
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AllanV

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Yes, you have the correct understanding.
The NT makes it clear that salvation is a life-long process.
This should be obvious just from the 10 or so verses which teach:
one's faith must endure until the end of life to receive eternal life.
Backing them up are other verses that speak of falling away,
drawing back, etc., which result in falling from grace, etc.
Plus, all of this was written to believers in churches.

Not to mention "The Hard Sayings of Jesus",
which are way beyond "hard" in my estimation!
He says, "Fear God who is able to cast you into hell",
which, of course, was spoken/written to everyone.

Those deceived ones who preach an "easy believism"
unto salvation will receive the greater condemnation!
When there are problems with some of the watered down doctrines the best scriptures to read are those that Jesus is recorded as saying.
 
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brotherjerry

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Allan...you mean like
John 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst"
John 6:35 "and he who believes in Me will never thirst"
John 10:28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 11:26 "and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die"

I am positive there are plenty more...but is that what you are talking about?
 
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AllanV

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Allan...you mean like
John 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst"
John 6:35 "and he who believes in Me will never thirst"
John 10:28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 11:26 "and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die"

I am positive there are plenty more...but is that what you are talking about?

Yes those verses are very real but when I am slipping a little or perhaps too much He sometimes sounds a bit punishing and this also helps.
 
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ZacharyB

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When there are problems with some of the watered down doctrines
the best scriptures to read are those that Jesus is recorded as saying.
El problemo with ONLY quoting Jesus is that
people can claim He was talking to unbelievers
... and NOT born-again believers,
which is true 'cause no one @ that time was born-again.

OTOH, Paul was writing ONLY to believers in the churches.
And he spent many verses warning them to STOP sinning,
or they would face death of the eternal kind.
God's elect did (and will) heed these dire warnings,
and clean up their acts ... unto life eternal.

Hey, while I'm here, let's take a peek at Psalm 5:
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.


But, not to worry ... born-again believers can ignore verses like dese!
'Cause dey can be habitual unrepentant sinners and be welcomed
into Heaven with Father God's great stretched-open arms!
Hey, let's praise the Lord.
LOL

And here's silly me believing that:
-- Father God never changes (Malachi)
-- Jesus Christ never changes (Hebrews)
-- Hey, maybe the Holy Spirit changes
 
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brotherjerry

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Zach...
I like that you cite Psalms after you said this:

IMO, referring to the OT is rather foolhardy ...

You sure like to have your cake and eat it too don't you. So were you wrong in what you said earlier about referring to the OT being rather foolhardy? Or perhaps it is only foolhardy when someone other than yourself does it?

El problemo with ONLY quoting Jesus is that
people can claim He was talking to unbelievers
... and NOT born-again believers,
Yep exactly...and when He told them they would never thirst He did not mean "until Paul starts preaching...and then you will thrist again" The message did not change from Jesus to Paul...Paul actually reinforced what it was that Christ was teaching.

Paul was writing ONLY to believers in the churches
That is not true at all. Paul wrote to many churches that were filled with people who professed belief. But he used "if" a lot in reference to "if you believe". HIs messages were very conditional on the person having belief or faith.

1 Corinthians 1:21 "...the message preached to save those who believe" - it is conditional on "those who believe"
1 Corinthians 15:2 "unless you believed in vain" - this is directly speaking of those who are not saved, but only profess association with the believers in Corinth.

Galatians 2:16 "...even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law..." - justification is only for those who believed.
Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" - again the promise is given under a condition...to those who believe.

TIme and time again Paul writes about the condition of belief in order to be benefactor of the blessings of Christ. The exact same message Christ Himself said "if you drink of the water I give you, you will never thirst again"
 
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AllanV

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El problemo with ONLY quoting Jesus is that
people can claim He was talking to unbelievers
... and NOT born-again believers,
which is true 'cause no one @ that time was born-again.

OTOH, Paul was writing ONLY to believers in the churches.
And he spent many verses warning them to STOP sinning,
or they would face death of the eternal kind.
God's elect did (and will) heed these dire warnings,
and clean up their acts ... unto life eternal.

Hey, while I'm here, let's take a peek at Psalm 5:
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.



6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.


But, not to worry ... born-again believers can ignore verses like dese!
'Cause dey can be habitual unrepentant sinners and be welcomed
into Heaven with Father God's great stretched-open arms!
Hey, let's praise the Lord.
LOL

And here's silly me believing that:
-- Father God never changes (Malachi)
-- Jesus Christ never changes (Hebrews)
-- Hey, maybe the Holy Spirit changes

The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John to show His servants while on the island that is called Patmos has some power.
 
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ZacharyB

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The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John to show His servants while on the island that is called Patmos has some power.
I do love your habitual habit of speaking with the greatest of tact.
'Tis very tactful indeed.

Indeed, thou art suggesting that we heed the many dire warnings
given by Jesus Himself through His long revelation to John
(whilst he was exiled on the little island of Patmos)
re: in His letters to the 7 churches in Asia (western Turkey),
which may be perused in Revelation 2 and 3.

Of course, it is necessary to understand what Jesus was saying!
Because, as with several other important spiritual Truths,
what He was saying was somewhat hidden from obviousisity.

News Flash ...
All spiritual Truth comes only through spiritual revelation from God.
And God does not reveal everything to everybody (including believers)!
Sometimes He desires to, but they just are NOT OPEN to hearing.
Open people are rewarded because of their
asking, seeking, and knocking (Matt 7:11).
 
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AllanV

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I do love your habitual habit of speaking with the greatest of tact.
'Tis very tactful indeed.

Indeed, thou art suggesting that we heed the many dire warnings
given by Jesus Himself through His long revelation to John
(whilst he was exiled on the little island of Patmos)
re: in His letters to the 7 churches in Asia (western Turkey),
which may be perused in Revelation 2 and 3.

Of course, it is necessary to understand what Jesus was saying!
Because, as with several other important spiritual Truths,
what He was saying was somewhat hidden from obviousisity.

News Flash ...
All spiritual Truth comes only through spiritual revelation from God.
And God does not reveal everything to everybody (including believers)!
Sometimes He desires to, but they just are NOT OPEN to hearing.
Open people are rewarded because of their
asking, seeking, and knocking (Matt 7:11).

In a first instance I was not seeking God but the circumstances of my life changed when some rural land was purchased at 24 years. I stopped full time work and built a small place to live. There was no power phone or even a road at first. Living costs were very low. We lived for 2 years and then I worked full time for 6 months and saved enough to get back to basics again.

One night there was a dream and the next day as I did some wood work in my small shed situated some distance from the house the dream was reflected on because it seemed very real.
My body became progressively and strongly energized while my legs became weak and there was some problem catching a breath. My mind was opened up and taken to some depth.

God is immediate and makes everything seen appear instantly. His power is enveloping everything seen and manifests it all. God is an observer deeper and beyond the mind that is usually thought from. There is a barrier in the mind that blocks access to seeing or knowing God and receiving His energetic Spirit power.

The mind of an immortal was shown as a comparison to mine and how mine did not measure up and is something like a reducer to stop own mind receiving too much. Many concepts became apparent and as this power decreased I gathered my self back together. It was obvious my belief had been changed permanently. It all happened in approximately 5 seconds.

The question was, what is mind, why had I never heard of this explanation of God, Jesus is true and to read the bible, this must be what Christians understand and experience.
Sleep escaped me for several nights and for approximately 3 years whole concepts would come into my mind of explanations of things that had never been contemplated or would have been understood. Everything was effortless and did not require any active input on my part. The quietness of surroundings and the uncluttered mind gave a receptiveness to believing.

An attempt was made to understand religion.There are almost endless interpretations and they tend to end up as being false. The initial freedom of Believing God diminished and there had to be some separation from established religion because it was taking the life from me.
There is a blockage in the usual mind that cannot be let go of and religion tends to maintain it.
 
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ZacharyB

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An attempt was made to understand religion.
There are almost endless interpretations and they tend to end up as being false.
... there had to be some separation from established religion
because it was taking the life from me.
There is a blockage in the usual mind that cannot be let go of
and religion tends to reestablish it.
Thanks for sharing your testimony, as difficult as it may be to follow.
Re: all of the above (except for the last sentence) ... so very true indeed.
Re: the last sentence ... religion, or spiritual Truth from God?
 
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