Those who really love Jesus prove it -- unto eternal life

[brotherjerry]

1) Becoose it is just common sense ... can you relate?
By grace, daddy-o gives his 16-year-old son a new car,
but takes it away from him because he radically misuses it.

2) Becoose of all of the dire warnings about the believer's responsibility.

I like how you want to equate eternal life to a material object that will rust away eventually no matter how much love and attention you give it.
Instead why not stick to some common themes the Bible uses. It refers to those that are saved as being adopted. But never do you see that once you are adopted you can be removed from the family. The same terms are never utilized in that manner. It never says you get adopted again.

When the Bible says that we are children of God, and He is the Father...never once does it say we are no longer children of God.

When the Bible says we will never thirst again, it never says we will get thirsty again does it?

You simply fail to recognize the simplicity and feel you have to be better than God and put your salvation in your hands when the Bible clearly states that we are in the Father's hands. And that no one can snatch us from the Father's hands.

 

[Job8]

James 1:

Christians will face trials, tribulations, and testing. They are to endure them, and this proves their love for God. They will also receive crowns.

Matthew 7:

There is a difference between experiential knowledge of Christ through the New Birth and an outward profession of faith, and even good works and miracles in the name of Christ.

John 14:

Those who truly love Christ obey Him.

1 John 1:

Christians are to live righteously, and also examine themselves continuously. If we sin, we must confess our sins.

Please notice (v.9) that you are NOT as righteous as you may think you are!

There is a difference between positional righteousness and practical righteousness. In God's eyes those who have believed Him and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ are as righteous as God Himself (2 Cor 5:21). At the same time, in practical terms, they must be righteous in all things. But because "the flesh" remains, they will sin and must repent and confess their sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why should anyone think that God saves by grace, and after believing in Christ, He pulls the grace away and forces His children to stay saved by their own actions???"

1) Becoose it is just common sense ... can you relate?

I do relate to common sense, but I don't relate to your illogic. It seems you don't understand God's grace.

By grace, daddy-o gives his 16-year-old son a new car,
but takes it away from him because he radically misuses it.

Except this is a very poor attempt to equate getting a car and receiving the free and irrevocable gift of eternal life. It does not compute.

2) Becoose of all of the dire warnings about the believer's responsibility.

I don't think anyone argues against the dire warnings about the believer's responsibility. But the issue and problem for you is that NONE of them speak to loss of salvation.

The believer is responsible for obedience and spiritual growth to maturity.
The believer is responsible for being filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit.
The believer is responsible for NOT grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

Those believers who fail in their responsibility will lose eternal rewards and face God's discipline in this life.

Those who fulfill their responsibility will be blessed in this life and richly rewarded in eternity.

 

[ZacharyB]

The challenge is first showing how "known" is to equate to being approved

Please refer to Vine ... t'was his idea.

 

[bling]

That is one of the funniest things I have read in a while. Considering you have provided not one verse that clearly states salvation can be lost. And others have shown you verses that speak of eternal security clearly....and you want to accuse them of doctrines of men? You have no Scripture while others do and you claim they are adhering to doctrines of men?

Once saved always saved comes up a lot.

Salvation is not taken from a Christian because that Christian sins.

Heb. 12: 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Like the Hebrew writer shows our eternal life in heaven is a birthright while here on earth and a birthright cannot be stolen, taken away or even taken back by the Father, but like Esau you can sell it or give it away.

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

 

[ZacharyB]

There is a difference between positional righteousness and practical righteousness. In God's eyes those who have believed Him and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ are as righteous as God Himself (2 Cor 5:21). At the same time, in practical terms, they must be righteous in all things. But because "the flesh" remains, they will sin and must repent and confess their sins.

Positional sanctification ... hopefully being by followed by ... Progressive sanctification!
I guess relates to ...
Positional righteousness ... hopefully being followed by ... Progressive righteousness!

Because we must be progressive in our thinking and living!
BOTH are necessary for salvation (ref: the NT).
Anyone care to peruse the verses (again)?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Positional sanctification ... hopefully being by followed by ... Progressive sanctification!
I guess relates to ...
Positional righteousness ... hopefully being followed by ... Progressive righteousness!

Because we must be progressive in our thinking and living!
BOTH are necessary for salvation (ref: the NT).
Anyone care to peruse the verses (again)?

Your view is really nothing more than a system of how to save yourself; by yourself. Where is that taught in Scripture?

Many verses teach that we are saved through faith in Christ, NOT by any specific kind of lifestyle.

And the ONLY REASON believers are justified or credited with righteousness is because it is by the righteousness of Christ that we are so credited.

 

[brotherjerry]

Once saved always saved comes up a lot.

Salvation is not taken from a Christian because that Christian sins.

Heb. 12: 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Like the Hebrew writer shows our eternal life in heaven is a birthright while here on earth and a birthright cannot be stolen, taken away or even taken back by the Father, but like Esau you can sell it or give it away.

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

I have a couple of issues here. Otherwise agree completely. Our birthright is not salvation...that would indicate that we are born saved with eternal life. And that is not expressed anywhere in the Bible. Quite the opposite is, however.
So to say that man is like Esau and born with an inheritance of heaven is not what is taught in the Bible. Which is another reason I truly do not believe the prodigal son story is about salvation because it implies one is born saved.

The idea that we can give up our salvation is also something that is not taught in the Bible. There are no verses that say we can give up eternal life. The very notion that we can give up eternal life negates the concept of eternal life and no longer makes it eternal.

 

[AllanV]

Your view is really nothing more than a system of how to save yourself; by yourself. Where is that taught in Scripture?

Many verses teach that we are saved through faith in Christ, NOT by any specific kind of lifestyle.

And the ONLY REASON believers are justified or credited with righteousness is because it is by the righteousness of Christ that we are so credited.

The scriptures relate that there is a new and living way beyond the veil.
There are some difficulties apparent because of the rendered translation and interpretation.
Faith is not being defined adequately and also the word Christ.
Faith is the creative power of God that manifests everything seen instantly.
The physical body we all have limits the action of the regenerating power of God to the point there is degeneration to death. There is corruption and the eventual breaking down of the cells by oxidizing.
A small proportion of the power of God expressed as faith, if working within an individual can take that person all the way into the will of God.
Christ is a word that means anointing.

When a person is regenerated by the faith working in them then they are saved (healed) in Christ, the anointing this creative act brings with it. It is accomplished by the Spirit.

The natural mind is set against faith working and this is obvious as seen in behavior, the way people speak to each other and their sicknesses and general dysfunction.

The spirit of Faith, the creative power, is only doing this within the person who is receptive. This receptiveness only occurs if some steps are taken.
The rebellious nature must be overcome just as Jesus has shown by example and this disarms the Kingdom of Satan as it works in the old rebellious mind.

The goal is Love. God energizes the Love in the divine nature. The divine nature cannot be found without some positioning and goal setting to find it and the same mind Jesus thinks from.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The self-righteous have no need of Christ, and He has not come for them.

"Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

[FreeGrace2]

The self-righteous have no need of Christ, and He has not come for them.

"Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Yet, the self-righteous are still quite sick. They just don't know it. Like those with serious illnesses, and are in denial of it.

One can ask any ER doctor about people who come to the ER with serious pain in their left arm and simply deny it when the EKG shows that they are having a heart attack.

They have misread their symptoms.

 

[bling]

I have a couple of issues here. Otherwise agree completely. Our birthright is not salvation...that would indicate that we are born saved with eternal life. And that is not expressed anywhere in the Bible. Quite the opposite is, however.
So to say that man is like Esau and born with an inheritance of heaven is not what is taught in the Bible. Which is another reason I truly do not believe the prodigal son story is about salvation because it implies one is born saved.

The idea that we can give up our salvation is also something that is not taught in the Bible. There are no verses that say we can give up eternal life. The very notion that we can give up eternal life negates the concept of eternal life and no longer makes it eternal.

The birthright analogy does not apply to our physical birth, but would apply to our Spiritual birth (being born again). As born again Christians we have immediately upon becoming Christian tons of gifts, but the eternal life with God in heaven is not given at that time, yet the guaranteed birthright of this life in heaven which no one can take from us is given. The Hebrew writer is talking to Christians about not giving up this birthright and uses the example of Esau.

Again the prodigal son was not “born” saved, but as a small child before the age of accountability (being knowingly responsible for his sins) the prodigal son was born in a safe condition like all newborns. If the child in in a safe condition he does not need saving, but when he rebels against the father he needs to go to the father to accept forgiveness (Loving salvation). The prodigal son story very much applies to what happens with most of us that are born into a wonderful Christian family with God being our Father.

Do you not see the prodigal son receiving salvation from the pigsty being gifted beyond his wildest dreams the same way sinner go to God and receive forgiveness and gifts beyond their wildest dreams.

Is the sinner prior to his accepting God/Christ not in the pigsty of life?


You said: “I have a couple of issues here. Otherwise agree completely.” And I went through those “issues” above, but you did not have issue with what Paul teaches us in Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up or Paul would be misleading his readers, since there would be no reason for this warning to be given to Christians.


Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our birthright of eternal life with God”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell or give up on the cheap.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The birthright analogy does not apply to our physical birth, but would apply to our Spiritual birth (being born again). As born again Christians we have immediately upon becoming Christian tons of gifts, but the eternal life with God in heaven is not given at that time

So then, was Jesus kinda confused when He said this:?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Jn 5:24

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up or Paul would be misleading his readers, since there would be no reason for this warning to be given to Christians.

Actually, Paul taught that eternal life was a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. So he did NOT teach that we can give up our gift.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yet, the self-righteous are still quite sick. They just don't know it. Like those with serious illnesses, and are in denial of it.

One can ask any ER doctor about people who come to the ER with serious pain in their left arm and simply deny it when the EKG shows that they are having a heart attack.

They have misread their symptoms.

Yes. I agree. They are the sickest of all, but Jesus is of no help to them. The gospel is for sinners. The folks who are working their way to Heaven do not have ears to hear it. The self-righteous need the full weight of the law.

 

[brotherjerry]

The birthright analogy does not apply to our physical birth, but would apply to our Spiritual birth (being born again). As born again Christians we have immediately upon becoming Christian tons of gifts, but the eternal life with God in heaven is not given at that time, yet the guaranteed birthright of this life in heaven which no one can take from us is given. The Hebrew writer is talking to Christians about not giving up this birthright and uses the example of Esau.

Again the prodigal son was not “born” saved, but as a small child before the age of accountability (being knowingly responsible for his sins) the prodigal son was born in a safe condition like all newborns. If the child in in a safe condition he does not need saving, but when he rebels against the father he needs to go to the father to accept forgiveness (Loving salvation). The prodigal son story very much applies to what happens with most of us that are born into a wonderful Christian family with God being our Father.

Do you not see the prodigal son receiving salvation from the pigsty being gifted beyond his wildest dreams the same way sinner go to God and receive forgiveness and gifts beyond their wildest dreams.

Is the sinner prior to his accepting God/Christ not in the pigsty of life?


You said: “I have a couple of issues here. Otherwise agree completely.” And I went through those “issues” above, but you did not have issue with what Paul teaches us in Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up or Paul would be misleading his readers, since there would be no reason for this warning to be given to Christians.


Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our birthright of eternal life with God”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell or give up on the cheap.

Our spiritual birth is being born in a condition of salvation...not a birthright that we will someday own. That is why Paul writes that we are new creatures. We have become like Adam before the fall, the Spirit dwells in us..we are born again in God's image and not post fall Adam's image.

I beg to differ about eternal life not being given at the time of salvation.
John 3:36 "He who believe in the Son HAS eternal life" It goes on to explain also "he who does not obey the Son will not see life" The first portion of that verse speaks of currently in the current tense. The second portion speaks in future tense...if you never obey the Son you will never see life. You have this life to obey and none other.

John 5:24 "...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life"

John 6:47 "...I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life"

1 John 3:15 indicates that eternal life abides in us by stating "you know that no murderer HAS eternal life abiding in him".
This matches up with what Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:14 "...will become in him a well of water sprining up to eternal life"

1 John 5:11 "...that God HAS given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

It is quite clear that eternal life is a current condition of a true believer.

As to the 'age of accountability' You do realize that is not actually taught in the Bible? Please cite a verse where it indicates that anyone is not held accountable until they are a certain age. Now before you, or anyone else goes off the rails...I too believe in the age of accountability doctrine. But I also realize that what the Bible does teach is that all men are sinners. "All have sinned", not "all over the age of x have sinned". And that "through one man sin entered the world", not "through one man sin entered the world for anyone over the age of x"

Prodigal son. What I find most of the time is the folks that apply this to salvation tend to ignore the older son in the story. If you apply the spiritual birth to the younger son, then do you not apply it to the older as well? He never left the father...he served and never neglected a command of the father. And he became angry but the father never gave him a young goat to celebrate with his friends.
What they also neglect is that the father never says that the younger son was once alive, became dead, and is alive again. It simply states he was dead and "has begun to live".

 

[AllanV]

The self-righteous have no need of Christ, and He has not come for them.

"Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Everyone falls short there is not one. Therefore what is the scripture saying.
Self righteousness is not righteousness before God.
There is no way forward for the self righteous they are right in their own minds only.
Instead of believing in self one must believe in God and say words of revelation from an anointing and this will, if done correctly purify the inside, the mind. Faith will increase.

 

[ZacharyB]

I simply quote NT verses which obviously warn of believers losing salvation.

Some believers were seen by God before the foundation of the world
who were faithful until the end, practiced righteousness, were obedient.
These special believers are called God's elect.

There are about 10 NT verses for each of the 3 criteria above,
and they have been posted here (and not believed) several times.

Today's Laodicean believers (Rev 3) prefer to simply trust in John 3:16, etc.
Yes, you can read about yourselves in Rev 3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I simply quote NT verses which obviously warn of believers losing salvation.

What is actually obvious is that NONE of the verses you've quoted say anything about loss of salvation. Zero.

Some believers were seen by God before the foundation of the world
who were faithful until the end, practiced righteousness, were obedient.
These special believers are called God's elect.

No. God elects ALL believers. Eph 1:4

 

[AllanV]

I simply quote NT verses which obviously warn of believers losing salvation.

Some believers were seen by God before the foundation of the world
who were faithful until the end, practiced righteousness, were obedient.
These special believers are called God's elect.

There are about 10 NT verses for each of the 3 criteria above,
and they have been posted here (and not believed) several times.

Today's Laodicean believers (Rev 3) prefer to simply trust in John 3:16, etc.
Yes, you can read about yourselves in Rev 3.

When an individual has an active faith it is like a portion of the creative powers of the whole universe are being released within. A new creation inside. This Spirit of faith must be active, mostly constantly, and this will take a person into a deep communion with God. Only Jesus is acceptable to God and His nature must be found. God's energizing Spirit will magnify the Love in the divine nature when it is found.
It is not a case of reading it somewhere and thinking it is already accomplished.

 

[brotherjerry]

I simply quote NT verses which obviously warn of believers losing salvation.

Some believers were seen by God before the foundation of the world
who were faithful until the end, practiced righteousness, were obedient.
These special believers are called God's elect.

There are about 10 NT verses for each of the 3 criteria above,
and they have been posted here (and not believed) several times.

Today's Laodicean believers (Rev 3) prefer to simply trust in John 3:16, etc.
Yes, you can read about yourselves in Rev 3.

There is no obvious about it Zach...because none of the verses you speak of state anything about salvation.

Unlike the plethora of verses that speak of salvation and an eternal security.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged..."
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we ARE saved..."
1 Corinthians 15:2 "by which also you ARE saved..."
Luke 19: "And Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house...'"
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son HAS eternal life..."
John 5:24 "...and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life...."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."
John 6:54 "....drinks my blood HAS eternal life"
1 John 5:11 "...that God HAS GIVEN us eternal life...."

Verse after verse after verse tell you that once you are saved, you HAVE eternal life....That Salvation is not something for the future but is a state of being now. Christ is never spoken of as "going to be your salvation" but instead is always referred to "as our salvation".

It is only when you add to the meaning of words and do not take the Bible for the simple truth that it is that you come into your man made doctrines of relying upon man own self for salvation. And that is exactly what you are doing Zach...you do not trust that God can keep you saved, so you have put your trust in yourself to keep your salvation. Me I prefer to trust that God is much more capable of keeping me safe than I am. And the gratitude I have for that is displayed in my works. I have become approved by God because I trust in God. The Israelite's did not surrender to God and trust God, and He had them wander the wilderness for 40 years. Don't be like a Israelite, put your trust in God and have faith in the knowledge that He will keep you safe, safer than you could ever manage on your own.