This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[ToBeLoved]

What's wrong with Calvinism?
What makes it so horrible?

Is it Jesus that saves you or you + Jesus?

What Calvinism does is it creates those who are elect and have been drawn by God group vs. the non-elect who have not been drawn by God.

God is clear that it is ALL. That ALL would come in faith and be saved. For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that WHOMEVER believes upon Him shall have eternal life.

To tell someone who is seeking God or even an atheist that they are not elect and God has not drawn them to Himself. That is horrible disgusting doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What Calvinism does is it creates those who are elect and have been drawn by God group vs. the non-elect who have not been drawn by God.

God is clear that it is ALL. That ALL would come in faith and be saved. For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that WHOMEVER believes upon Him shall have eternal life.

To tell someone who is seeking God or even an atheist that they are not elect and God has not drawn them to Himself. That is horrible disgusting doctrine.

Another problem with Calvinism: it actually gives those in hell an excuse for being there.

"I wasn't chosen for heaven". Or, "every human is a sinner, but God only chose some sinners for heaven and He didn't choose me".

The ONLY reason anyone will end up in the lake of fire is because they rejected the free gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15

 

[ZacharyB]

“… narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)
Sad that your understanding of Mat 7:14 seems to be about one's lifestyle or works, or whatever. The verse is about narrowness in the FACT that salvation is ONLY through Jesus Christ. No other way; not by your works, your obedience, anything else.
Jesus said this:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me. Jn 14:6
That's what Jesus meant in Matt 7:14 about the way being narrow.
Or how Luke said it: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
That's what "narrow" means.

Sad that you have missed what's meant to be discerned ... again!
Spiritual brainwashing, deception, and blindness tend to do that.
Hey, maybe some day you will see the dire warnings in the NT.
But, I'm not holding my breath.

P.S. Note the blue below ... it is difficult.

 

[sdowney717]

Sad that you have missed what's meant to be discerned ... again!
Spiritual brainwashing, deception, and blindness tend to do that.
Hey, maybe some day you will see the dire warnings in the NT.
But, I'm not holding my breath.

P.S. Note in my sig that being a slave of obedience is difficult.

You are the other poster 'extraordinary'?

 

[Isaiah55:6]

I've already challenged any Calvinist to show any verse that says that one must be regenerated in order to believe. And so far, no takers.

Your position is one from silence.

The teaching that we need to be regenerated first is arrived at systematically. The same way the trinity is arrived at. The bible doesn't say the word trinity but we come to that conclusion systematically. The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must first regenerate him and then he can believe.

Again I will ask. If a unbeliever cannot seek for God like (Rom 3:10-12) says. How does he seek for God? He cannot but you say he can.

* there are a lot of questions being tossed around here all at once. I'll reply to them when I can. It's overwhelming.

 

[-57]

I've already challenged any Calvinist to show any verse that says that one must be regenerated in order to believe. And so far, no takers.

One thing I hate is a person who is claiming to be a christian making such claims as there being no takers.
I posted several verses earlier. HERE THEY ARE AGAIN

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

28in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

1 Cor 1:30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Do you still say there are no verses?

 

[-57]

How about showing us any verse that says that man does NOT have free will concerning salvation. This kind of silly argument can go both ways.

I've already posted several of them. Here they are again for you.

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

28in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

1 Cor 1:30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Do you still say there are no verses?

 

[-57]

Jesus is our Savior. But that has nothing to do with Calvinism. Every evangelical believes that, regardless of which theological camp they live in.

Why should I accept your Pelagianism?

 

[-57]

What Calvinism does is it creates those who are elect and have been drawn by God group vs. the non-elect who have not been drawn by God.

God is clear that it is ALL. That ALL would come in faith and be saved. For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that WHOMEVER believes upon Him shall have eternal life.

To tell someone who is seeking God or even an atheist that they are not elect and God has not drawn them to Himself. That is horrible disgusting doctrine.

Sounds like you are stripping God of being sovereign and providence. To me that's horrible disgusting doctrine.
You're theology disallows God to say...... Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sad that you have missed what's meant to be discerned ... again!
Spiritual brainwashing, deception, and blindness tend to do that.
Hey, maybe some day you will see the dire warnings in the NT.
But, I'm not holding my breath.

P.S. Note the blue below ... it is difficult.

Your understanding of Rom 6:16-19 is woefully lacking. And your response to my post completely ignored the post.

Will you ever address my posts? Or just keep "preaching" your own views of things?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The teaching that we need to be regenerated first is arrived at systematically. The same way the trinity is arrived at. The bible doesn't say the word trinity but we come to that conclusion systematically.

I disagree. The Bible very plainly refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God. And we find all 3 mentioned in the last verse of 2 Cor. So no, we don't need a "systematic" approach to prove the Trinity. The Bible reveals the Trinity clearly.

And I've already shown that regeneration follows faith from Eph 2:5 and 8.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must first regenerate him and then he can believe.

Very fuzzy logic going on here. Your amalgamation of verses is a mixed bag. Yes, man's heart is evil, and man is a slave of sin. But the quote from Rom 3 doesn't apply to everyone, for the Bible also notes that man does seek God, and that God wants man to seek Him (Acts 17:26). And 1 Cor 2:14 isn't about the gospel. In context, it's about a "message for the mature" (v.6) and the "deep things of God" (advanced doctrines which are ONLY for believers) in v.10. So it was cited out of context for your points.

And again, Eph 2:5 and 8 refutes your logic completely.

Again I will ask. If a unbeliever cannot seek for God like (Rom 3:10-12) says. How does he seek for God? He cannot but you say he can.

The 9 verses that follow v.9 in Rom 3 are quotes from the OT to demonstrate that "all have sinned" and there is "none righteous". None of the 9 verses applies to everyone. They are examples of HOW everyone is a sinner and that none are righteous.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Why does God reward anyone if it is He who causes them to seek Him? The writer of Hebrews KNEW that some do seek God.

We read about Cornelius and Lydia who were "worshipers of God" even while unsaved. And they responded to the gospel.

 

[-57]

The teaching that we need to be regenerated first is arrived at systematically. The same way the trinity is arrived at. The bible doesn't say the word trinity but we come to that conclusion systematically. The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must first regenerate him and then he can believe.

Again I will ask. If a unbeliever cannot seek for God like (Rom 3:10-12) says. How does he seek for God? He cannot but you say he can.

* there are a lot of questions being tossed around here all at once. I'll reply to them when I can. It's overwhelming.

Isaiah55:6.....well put. +1

 

[FreeGrace2]

One thing I hate is a person who is claiming to be a christian making such claims as there being no takers.

Does the Bible allow any believer to hate another human? No. I see a problem here. And by my statement of there being "no takers" I clearly meant that no one has given any verses that prove their claim.

I posted several verses earlier. HERE THEY ARE AGAIN

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

28in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

1 Cor 1:30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Do you still say there are no verses?

No, there still aren't any. None of these verses SAY what you claim. Maybe you think they MEAN what you claim, but they sure don't SAY what you claim.

So, to prove your view, please exegete each one of them to show that they MEAN what you claim.

As I recall, I've already addressed each of these verses. And I don't recall any refutation of my response.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus is our Savior. But that has nothing to do with Calvinism. Every evangelical believes that, regardless of which theological camp they live in."

Why should I accept your Pelagianism?

you don't have to accept anything. And I don't have Pelagianism as you seem to think.

Please explain how Calvinism relates to salvation. One is saved by grace through faith, per Eph 2:8. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

 

[-57]

Does the Bible allow any believer to hate another human? No. I see a problem here. And by my statement of there being "no takers" I clearly meant that no one has given any verses that prove their claim.


No, there still aren't any. None of these verses SAY what you claim. Maybe you think they MEAN what you claim, but they sure don't SAY what you claim.

So, to prove your view, please exegete each one of them to show that they MEAN what you claim.

As I recall, I've already addressed each of these verses. And I don't recall any refutation of my response.

FreeGrace2...you were guilty. There were takers. There were verses given that proved the claim. I'm truly sorry if you disagree with what the verses teach.
You're addressing of the verses was clearly ad-hoc and the thoughtless process you used was evident.

The very first verse presented shows we are chosen and not that we do the choosing.
John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:65 is pretty clear. You can't come to Christ unless it is granted by the father......And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

 

[-57]

I said this:
"Jesus is our Savior. But that has nothing to do with Calvinism. Every evangelical believes that, regardless of which theological camp they live in."

you don't have to accept anything. And I don't have Pelagianism as you seem to think.

Please explain how Calvinism relates to salvation. One is saved by grace through faith, per Eph 2:8. That's the Bible, not Calvinism.

Calvinism would have no problem with that verse. If you back up <----- to verse 2:5 we read.....even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We were made alive. Grace is mentioned without faith. Faith comes later as it is what is also given to us at the moment of regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2...you were guilty. There were takers.

The "takers" failed to provide any verse that supports their claim.

There were verses given that proved the claim.

I addressed each verse and showed otherwise.

I'm truly sorry if you disagree with what the verses teach.

I don't disagree with what the verses both SAY and MEAN. I do disagree with how Calvinists view them.

You're addressing of the verses was clearly ad-hoc and the thoughtless process you used was evident.

So, because I disagree with your view, my process is "thoughtless", huh? Interesting.

The very first verse presented shows we are chosen and not that we do the choosing.

That isn't the issue. The issue in election is for WHAT we have been chosen. How many categories of election are you aware of in Scripture? I can show you 6 of them.

John 15:16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Go back to John 6:70, where Jesus said the same to all 12 disciples, including Judas. Obviously He wasn't speaking about salvation.

John 6:65 is pretty clear. You can't come to Christ unless it is granted by the father......And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

OK. John 6:45 tells us who God does draw to the Son; those who have listened and learned from the Father. It's all in context.

Now I suppose I'll be charged with more "thoughtless" process in my response to these 2 verses.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

And I've already shown that regeneration follows faith from Eph 2:5 and 8.
*I don't see what you see in (Eph 2:5&8) if anything I feel it helps my case.



for the Bible also notes that man does seek God, and that God wants man to seek Him (Acts 17:26).

*I agree. He does want us to seek him and he rewards those who do. I fully agree. I suggest you study the Prescriptive and decretive wills of God.

And again, Eph 2:5 and 8 refutes your logic completely.
*No it doesn't


The 9 verses that follow v.9 in Rom 3 are quotes from the OT to demonstrate that "all have sinned" and there is "none righteous". None of the 9 verses applies to everyone.

*How do they not apply to everyone ? Seeing how they all say things like "not even one, no one, all"

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

*I agree, no problem there

Why does God reward anyone if it is He who causes them to seek Him?
*Prescriptive and decretive will of God

We read about Cornelius and Lydia who were "worshipers of God" even while unsaved. And they responded to the gospel.

*Interesting, scripture please? For the Cornelius and Lydia part

*****Oops, how do I separate all your points?******

 

[FreeGrace2]

Calvinism would have no problem with that verse. If you back up <----- to verse 2:5 we read.....even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Uh, yeah, that was part of my point. And when you realize that v.5 equates being "made alive" with "have been saved", you will realize when you read v.8 that faith PRECEDES salvation and being made alive.

We were made alive. Grace is mentioned without faith. Faith comes later as it is what is also given to us at the moment of regeneration.

Grace does NOT come later. v.8 is later, sure. But v.8 tells us WHEN faith occurs; before salvation, which means before being made alive.

We are saved (made alive) by grace THROUGH FAITH.

So, still want to argue that faith comes later?

If we are saved through faith, how can it be later than being saved?

 

[sdowney717]

Calvinism would have no problem with that verse. If you back up <----- to verse 2:5 we read.....even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We were made alive. Grace is mentioned without faith. Faith comes later as it is what is also given to us at the moment of regeneration.

Yes, the regeneration is of His grace, faith coming after and good works after that.
Notice our faith is not even mentioned here by Paul, just His grace, the faith comes later.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.