This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

Marvin Knox

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To say that I have no idea what you are talking about it is an understatement.
You quoted a comment that I made to ToBeLoved about how she must have been offended by your opinion about my writing.

Thank you for your comment that you made about my posts by the way.

Are you thinking here that the comment made by me was made to you instead of her or what?

I don't seem to understand the meaning of your post here.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Why do you not just explain what you believe exists and occurs during salvation? That sounds much simpler and will get us to the point quicker.
Get us to the point quicker? I didn't realize that you were part of the conversation between FreeGrace2 and I.

He knows what two things he said occurs at the same time. It's in his post - which I was commenting to him about. Just read his post (which came before mine to him) and you will be right up to speed.

You will find his post to which I was commenting in my post #692
 
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Marvin Knox

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Do you regenerated as your word instead of born-again? Born-again is biblical, so why make it so confusing.
No - regeneration is a different word and concept entirely in scripture.

Regeneration is biblical as well as "born-again" of course. - both in concept theologically and in the actual English translation of the word as used in many or even most translations.

Perhaps it is confusing to you because you don't understand how different theologians use the term.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Diagree.
To be spiritually alive is to have your sins forgiven by Jesus Christ and His justification and righteousness.
I disagree as would most theologians.

One who has been made spiritually alive would indeed have his sins forgiven. But that is not the definition of being spiritually alive.
The Holy Spirit is given to us for many reasons, one being that our spirit TESTIFIES WITH the Holy Spirit that we are the children of God.
Of course.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I disagree as would most theologians.

One who has been made spiritually alive would indeed have his sins forgiven. But that is not the definition of being spiritually alive.
.
And I'm sure there are theologians who disagree with those theologians.

Again, in faith we come to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. He gives us His righteousness and justifies us with His victory over sin. Then we are sent the Holy Spirit by Christ.

Why do you have such difficulty explaining what you believe. Doesn't God tell us to always be ready to tell others what we have in Christ Jesus?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I don't consider anything that you have to say regarding scripture any more.
That is your freedom. :)

It makes no sense to me.
I completely understand. No hard feelings.

It wasn't too long ago as I recall that you said that mercy and compassion were included in salvation and then completely ignored Paul's reference to both in election in Romans 9.
I think your "recaller" needs a tuneup.

God DOES choose whom He will to save. Period.
Of course He does. I even noted that. Maybe you missed my point, which is why my post hasn't made sense. He chooses to save believers, which is what 1 Cor 1:21 says. Which I quoted.

My point is that God doesn't choose who will believe, which is the logical conclusion of Calvinism's doctrine of election and regeneration before faith.

It's not based on human will or exertion - Rom 9:16.
I agree. God did all the work. Man can only receive the benefit of God's work.

Regeneration comes first - John 3:6-8.
Except there is nothing in that passage (or any other passage) that teaches that regeneration comes first. In fact, Eph 2:5 and 8 teach the exact opposite. That being "made alive" (born again or regenerated) occurs WHEN one is saved per v.5 and v.8 gives us the order of occurrence for salvation and faith. We are saved through faith, demonstrating that faith precedes salvation.

Therefore, faith precedes regeneration logically. But they occur at the same time, per the grammar of 1 Jn 5:1.

The Calvinist logic is based on scripture. To say otherwise is a lie.
It is NOT, and that is no lie.
 
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FreeGrace2

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They exist at the same time.

That is not the same as saying that they "occur" at the same time.

I'm using the two words in the way shown below.

"exist" = to have real being whether material or spiritual
"occur" = to come into existence : to happen

You are using the two words in quite another way. One that is not warranted by the grammar of the passage in 1 John 5:1. You seem to do that sort of thing a lot here.
It seems to me that you are playing a word game. Because "to have a real being" and "to come into existence" certainly can be seen as being the same thing. Maybe you just don't want to admit that.

btw, haven't you noticed that your definition of "occur" which is "to come into existence" really is the same as "existing"?

So, how are they different? I don't see it at all.

If something comes into existence (it occurs), it exists.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FG...just as a note on both of these. When they mention "partakers" or use 'metachoi' the "partnership" is not with Christ, it is with other partakers.
Hebrews 3:1 "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus...." The partaking is not done with God in this verse, it is done with brethren.
Hebrews 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ..." Again this is not partaking with Christ, but of Christ...so the partakers...or partners are you and I.
The Greek word means a partner. So a "partner of Christ" certainly is a partner with Christ. And it's about fellowship with Christ. We can't have fellowship with Him unless we partner with Him. Or abide in Him (Jn 15).
 
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FreeGrace2

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No - regeneration is a different word and concept entirely in scripture.

Regeneration is biblical as well as "born-again" of course. - both in concept theologically and in the actual English translation of the word as used in many or even most translations.

Perhaps it is confusing to you because you don't understand how different theologians use the term.
Why not just define the difference between regeneration and being born again then????

This does nothing to advance the discussion.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Now this I have a bit of a difference of opinion on. For only natural men can come to know Jesus, those that are spiritual already know Jesus. It is only a natural man who seeks God for salvation, because someone who is saved is already saved.

Until you have the indwelling of the Spirit, you are a natural man. There is no third category of people that are almost spiritual, or that are natural men but have spiritual knowledge. The Bible never declares anything like that. There were all sorts of examples of natural men who sought Jesus; Judas Iscariot for one, the rich young ruler for another, all natural men who sought salvation, who wanted a savior, but when one was presented to them they rejected Him. The Gospel is a message for everyone and everyone can understand it, accepting it or rejecting it is entirely up to that person to do so.
Judas did no seek Jesus. Jesus chose him.

Nothing is said about the final status of the rich young ruler.

Speaking from experience - many people go away to think about things - often many times - before finally becoming a disciple.

Regarding the other things you said that you disagree with me about ---- all I know is what it says in Romans. No one seeks God.

No one can even say Jesus is Lord (from the heart at least) except by the Holy Spirit.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father (through His Spirit I would think) draws that person.

You say that natural men cannot have spiritual knowledge. They have to be spiritual men to have spiritual knowledge. You say that the scriptures do not allow for any 3rd kind of man - only those with or those without the Spirit of God. You say that until the indwelling of the Spirit of God you are a natural man. Bingo. (Welcome to the Reformed side. Let's join forces.:))

As the scriptures say:

"Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in Heaven." and "and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
 
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Marvin Knox

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Why not just define the difference between regeneration and being born again then????

This does nothing to advance the discussion.
I have - again and again and again and again until it is staring to get old for me and for everyone else I would think.

Regeneration is the generation by God Himself of spiritual life in a person where none has existed since the fall of the first Adam.

Being born again is the opening salvo in a life lived in the Kingdom of God.

Unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God.

What is necessary is a new creation - one wherein dwells the Spirit of God.

Regeneration of the dead spirit of men and the birth of that man into the Kingdom of God are related concepts. But they are not the same thing.
 
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brotherjerry

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Judas did no seek Jesus. Jesus chose him.

Nothing is said about the final status of the rich young ruler.

Speaking from experience - many people go away to think about things - often many times - before finally becoming a disciple.

Regarding the other things you said that you disagree with me about ---- all I know is what it says in Romans. No one seeks God.

No one can even say Jesus is Lord (from the heart at least) except by the Holy Spirit.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father (through His Spirit I would think) draws that person.

You say that natural men cannot have spiritual knowledge. They have to be spiritual men to have spiritual knowledge. You say that the scriptures do not allow for any 3rd kind of man - only those with or those without the Spirit of God. You say that until the indwelling of the Spirit of God you are a natural man. Bingo. (Welcome to the Reformed side. Let's join forces.:))

As the scriptures say:

"Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in Heaven." and "and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

Judas did not seek God? Really? Were not all the Jews seeking the Messiah? And even after being called to follow Christ, do you not think that Judas was still searching for what He expected to be the Messiah?
As to the Rich Young Ruler...final outcome is irrelevant...when we see him in the story, he was a natural man.

And yes a spiritual man will only have advanced knowledge of spiritual things. The Gospel of Christ however, is specifically designed to lead a natural man to become a spiritual creature. There is no middle ground for men, no third category, but God is Good and great enough to provide what is needed to lead a natural man to become a spiritual man. That is the grace that is God.

Never disagreed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...even FG understands that and accepts that. I have disagreements with how one comes to that, and who is able to receive that indwelling. I would contend that it is God's desire that all come to know Christ and receive eternal life as the Bible states. Thus all have the ability to receive Christ, all have the ability to understand the Gospel of Christ. But all will not listen, they will reject the Gospel. Not because God did not give them an ability, but because of their own will. Just as accepting the free gift of salvation, is an act of will to receive it. Again not because God made them through election, choose them through granting of an ability that others do not have...but because they choose to.

That is not to say that God does not influence people. Never to reject the Gospel...because that would go against His desire to see all saved. But God does not remove our free will to make the decision ourselves...He has just made it incredibly easy for us (and man still fails).
 
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brotherjerry

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The Greek word means a partner. So a "partner of Christ" certainly is a partner with Christ. And it's about fellowship with Christ. We can't have fellowship with Him unless we partner with Him. Or abide in Him (Jn 15).
Yes we are partners...but not partners with Christ...we are partner with other believers of Christ. Remember we are the bride...not the groom. And in matters of the spirit the groom is the head of the house. And fellowship also does not equate to equality or equal divisions, as partnership implies. As it pertains to Christ, we are partners in the salvation that Christ has provided...that is how we OF Christ.

In the grand scheme of things, this matters little. It is however, easy to see that in the verses in Hebrew there is no direct claim of being partners with Christ, as the "partakers" being spoken of is fellow believers. You would have to make an implication that is not present to claim it is with Christ as well.
 
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Marvin Knox

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It seems to me that you are playing a word game. Because "to have a real being" and "to come into existence" certainly can be seen as being the same thing. Maybe you just don't want to admit that.

btw, haven't you noticed that your definition of "occur" which is "to come into existence" really is the same as "existing"?

So, how are they different? I don't see it at all.

If something comes into existence (it occurs), it exists.
faith precedes regeneration logically. But they occur at the same time, per the grammar of 1 Jn 5:1.
Faith does not precede regeneration logically. If anything it is the other way around as any good systematic theology will testify.

But be that as it may:

Originally you said that faith precedes regeneration. You have also said that they happen at the same time. You say that 1 John 5:1 proves both of those points unambiguously.

This is the verse that you say clearly tells us that they happen at exactly the same time or (depending on which post of yours we look at) that faith precedes regeneration.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
1 John 5:1

Logically the verse does not teach what you say that it does.

Logically the verse does teach that one who possesses faith has also been regenerated. No problem there. That has always been the Reformed position.

But it does not follow logically that one who has been regenerated also has faith.

You obviously believe that to be the case. But the verse does not teach that as you say that it does.

Reformed theologians (and I), on the other hand, have no problem with the idea that regeneration precedes faith. In fact there are many reasons to believe that it does.

It may or may not be true that one can be regenerated for a period of time before they exercise faith.

Paul may have kicked against the goads for quite a period of time before he was compelled to get off the fence about Christ through Christ's dramatic intervention. That mirrors my own conversion experience as well.

We have no idea how long it was before Lydia heard and responded to the gospel. We are not told. We are only told that the Lord opened her heart so that she could believe.

But those points are not what we have been talking about here. We have been talking about whether 1 John 5:1 teaches that faith precedes regeneration or, alternately, whether it teaches that they happen at exactly the same time.

It does not logically follow that either of those two things is necessarily the case - as you say it is.

It seems to me that you are banking on the fact that some here do not have a good grasp concerning the discipline of logic.

Ultimately of course, people will have to decide for themselves if this verse teaches clearly that faith and regeneration happen at the same time or that faith precedes regeneration.

The logical answer to that question is always going to be that the verse does not prove that. That will be the logical answer no matter how you play with words.

Whether people can see the logic or not is beside the point.

This thread has grown tiresome.

"expos4ever" was right about one thing for sure. No one here is likely to give an inch.

Some pretend that they do not understand what I have been saying.

Some are so entrenched against anything that they think might give a leg up to the dreaded Calvinism that they will do anything rather than even give a nod to that side.

And at least one prominent participant isn't equipped to follow the logic and or the study of the scriptures involved in good systematic theology.

For what ever reason -- you are all on your own now. I'm moving on.

May God bless you all. :)
 
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sdowney717

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Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Looking at the order here, salvation which is God's justifying of us, being made righteous in His sight comes AFTER our being regenerated and renewed in the Holy Spirit.

but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Saved through regeneration, means, regenerated-renewed is the beginning process whereby we are then saved later.
Saved comes after regeneration and is due to His mercy and grace alone.

The Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

After we are justified by God's grace, we are then heirs, which is glorification with Christ having eternal life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I have - again and again and again and again until it is staring to get old for me and for everyone else I would think.
Well, myself and at least one other poster think otherwise.

Regeneration is the generation by God Himself of spiritual life in a person where none has existed since the fall of the first Adam.
Except you're ignoring the "re-" part of the word. It's something that has occurred again.

Being born again is the opening salvo in a life lived in the Kingdom of God.
OK, now please define what "opening salvo" means. Also, you've ignored the "again" part. Again.

Unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God.
We all know that. No one gets into the kingdom unless they are born again.

What is necessary is a new creation - one wherein dwells the Spirit of God.
Right. And this "new creation" is what being RE-generated and born AGAIN is all about. They are the same thing.

Regeneration of the dead spirit of men and the birth of that man into the Kingdom of God are related concepts. But they are not the same thing.
Your answer here didn't help your view.

The Trinity created man (Adam) in their image. Adam had a body, soul and human spirit. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that one worships God with spirit (human) and truth (God's Word and way). When Adam rebelled, his human spirit died, from which we get the term "spiritual death".

All progeny of Adam are born spiritually dead. Meaning that all progeny is born with a dead human spirit, so that we can't worship God in our spiritually dead state.

When one believes on Christ, they are born AGAIN. Meaning their human spirit is "made alive" (Eph 2:5). That is RE-birth, or RE-generation.

So, being born again, or begin regenerated ARE the same thing. Exactly. Just different words.

Regenerated
Born again
Reborn
New born
New birth
 
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ToBeLoved

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Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Looking at the order here, salvation which is God's justifying of us, being made righteous in His sight comes AFTER our being regenerated and renewed in the Holy Spirit.
I don't see the order of what happens here that you say that you do? I see an 'and', nothing that indicates order.

Is there a reason that you say it indicates proof when it does not?
 
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brotherjerry

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I don't see the order of what happens here that you say that you do? I see an 'and', nothing that indicates order.

Is there a reason that you say it indicates proof when it does not?
I sure am glad you said something...Cause I was just about to as well...all these verses floating around that are trying to claim some sort of an order and all I see are "AND" instead of "THEN". There is no ORDER given there is only AND statements.
 
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Marvin Knox

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To say that I have no idea what you are talking about it is an understatement.
I just popped in here again because I wanted to be sure that I corrected the mistake that I made regarding you.

I didn't want to just add a P.S to my last post to you (post #701) because I didn't want this apology to get lost in the shuffle.

I am very appreciative of what you said about my posts being clear and well thought out. Others don't feel the same apparently - but thank you at least for saying so.

I especially appreciate what you said since you and I are not necessarily on the same side of things. Or at least I don't know whether we are or not.

I can see that this misunderstanding has all been my bad, as it were.

I referenced your kind comment in a post directed to ToBeLoved. She was commenting about how I was not clear in my posts and that I was only trying to sound intelligent and that I was not a good writer etc.

When I referenced your comment to me, I used the "quote" feature to reprint it for her.

In retrospect, I should have just referenced it in general or perhaps only written it out for her in normal type.

When I used the quote button instead - it made it appear that I was writing a dual post to her and also to you.
I was not. It was meant for hers eyes only.

It must have been a shock when I appeared to be taking exception to what you had intended to be a compliment to me.

Sorry about that. It was all my mistake.


I have decided to leave this thread now because I am having to repeat myself too often to make my points. Also some here seem not to want to have a really thorough dialog about these doctrines. It also appears that at least one is not equipped or is way too emotionally vested to do so.

It reminds me of what you said about these little talks never amounting to anything in so far as anyone being willing to change their mind about what they subscribe to concerning doctrine.

There are many here who have a "Berean" attitude about these things. But there are many more who do not.

Thank you again for your kind compliment to me. God bless you and yours.

See you on the other side. :)
 
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expos4ever

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I have decided to leave this thread now because I am having to repeat myself too often to make my points. Also some here seem not to want to have a really thorough dialog about these doctrines. It also appears that at least one is not equipped or is way too emotionally vested to do so.
Thanks for the kind words - I wondered whether there was some misunderstanding. I wish I could be more upbeat about this being a place where people actually move forward in understanding but I remain skeptical. I am not saying its a complete waste of time - one can hone one's communication skills and perhaps the occasional lurker reads something that causes them to actually shift their position, if only a little.
 
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