This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[FreeGrace2]

Interesting, scripture please?

*****Oops, how do I separate all your points?******

How about starting with the 13 verses I noted in my post?

 

[Isaiah55:6]

How about starting with the 13 verses I noted in my post?

No I mean I jumbled all my answers inside your quote box. I don't know how to fix it. I'm new here, still learning.

*also, does anyone know how to move this to a different thread? We kinda hijacked a 'OSAS' thread.

 

[-57]

Uh, yeah, that was part of my point. And when you realize that v.5 equates being "made alive" with "have been saved", you will realize when you read v.8 that faith PRECEDES salvation and being made alive.


Grace does NOT come later. v.8 is later, sure. But v.8 tells us WHEN faith occurs; before salvation, which means before being made alive.

We are saved (made alive) by grace THROUGH FAITH.

So, still want to argue that faith comes later?

If we are saved through faith, how can it be later than being saved?

I have tried to show you several times with a dozen verses that a "dead man" can't have faith.

I have heard this story on several occasions.....a man is drowning, going under for the third time. This time for good. But a life preserver is tossed to him and the man grasp it with his finger tips and then pulled towards the bot where he is saved.

That story is often used as an analogy towards ones salvation. But it is flawed.

In reality we have already drowned. Were floating on the bottom of the lake. Dead. We can't grasp the life preserver. Were dead. God Himself has to jump in, grab us, bring us to the top and then give us life. Regenerate us.

Or, it's like the man about to die....God is holding out the medicine on a spoon and all the guy has to do is stick out his tongue and touch the medicine and he will live. But, once again this is flawed. To live the man can do nothing. God has to dump the medicine down the mans throat to be saved.

You have no part in your salvation. It is all God. Regeneration then faith. Or do you claim you have a part in your salvation?

 

[-57]

Uh, yeah, that was part of my point. And when you realize that v.5 equates being "made alive" with "have been saved", you will realize when you read v.8 that faith PRECEDES salvation and being made alive.


Grace does NOT come later. v.8 is later, sure. But v.8 tells us WHEN faith occurs; before salvation, which means before being made alive.

We are saved (made alive) by grace THROUGH FAITH.

So, still want to argue that faith comes later?

If we are saved through faith, how can it be later than being saved?

That's not what I said. I said faith comes later as it is what is also given to us at the moment of regeneration.

...are you still denying faith is a gift from God?

 

[brotherjerry]

Yes..man has faith, God gives hope. God does not give man both the thing to hope for and the how to hope for it....He gives man the Hope. God did not give Adam the faith to believe that eating of the fruit would cause death. It was because of Adam's faith that he did not before that time. It was by Abraham's faith that he offered up his son. It was because of Noah's faith that he built the ark as God commanded. Man has faith when it even comes to things that are not spiritual...I have faith that when I put my key in the ignition and turn it that my truck will start. Faith is not just spiritual, even the Biblical description used in Hebrews 11 is not restricted to things of the Spirit.

 

[-57]

Yes..man has faith, God gives hope. God does not give man both the thing to hope for and the how to hope for it....He gives man the Hope. God did not give Adam the faith to believe that eating of the fruit would cause death. It was because of Adam's faith that he did not before that time. It was by Abraham's faith that he offered up his son. It was because of Noah's faith that he built the ark as God commanded. Man has faith when it even comes to things that are not spiritual...I have faith that when I put my key in the ignition and turn it that my truck will start. Faith is not just spiritual, even the Biblical description used in Hebrews 11 is not restricted to things of the Spirit.

Did God give Abraham and Noah the faith or did they pick it up along the way?

 

[brotherjerry]

They were born with the ability to have faith. Faith in the sun coming up every morning, faith that the plants will come up that were planted, all sorts of faith. They have to be exposed to that which is Spiritual in order to have faith in that or not. This is evident by the many degrees of faith we see in the world today when it comes to life after death...anything from nothing, to Eternal Life of the Bible and everything in between. Some people have faith in Buddha. Is that a faith that will save them? No because it is faith in the wrong thing, not because God has not given them faith. That is what the Bible teaches about idols...people that have idols have faith, they have a hope and assurance as the Bible describes faith. But in the end they will be let down and have death. But those that have hope in the promises of God, and the assurances of Him being Just, of Him never lying, those that have the faith in the right thing, will be rewarded for they did not let the distractions of the world interfere with their faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have tried to show you several times with a dozen verses that a "dead man" can't have faith.

Yes, you tried. But didn't succeed.

I have heard this story on several occasions.....a man is drowning, going under for the third time. This time for good. But a life preserver is tossed to him and the man grasp it with his finger tips and then pulled towards the bot where he is saved.

That story is often used as an analogy towards ones salvation. But it is flawed.

In reality we have already drowned. Were floating on the bottom of the lake. Dead. We can't grasp the life preserver. Were dead. God Himself has to jump in, grab us, bring us to the top and then give us life. Regenerate us.

Your story is also as flawed as the first one. Your view equates being spiritually dead with being physically dead, which misses the whole point.

Being spiritually dead doesn't mean loss of function, which is your view. And Jesus refutes that idea clearly in Jn 5:24 where He said the "dead will hear and will live".

Or, it's like the man about to die....God is holding out the medicine on a spoon and all the guy has to do is stick out his tongue and touch the medicine and he will live. But, once again this is flawed. To live the man can do nothing. God has to dump the medicine down the mans throat to be saved.

Another flawed story, and not relevant to how one is saved.

You have no part in your salvation. It is all God.

Correct. All I can do is RECEIVE God's salvation. Which is by grace (I don't earn or deserve it) THROUGH faith.

Regeneration then faith.

Since Paul equated being "made alive" with "have been saved" in Eph 2:5 and then said in v.8 that we are saved through faith, your statement is in error. Faith, then regeneration.

Or do you claim you have a part in your salvation?

I have no part. I can only receive God's salvation. He provides ALL of it. I contributed nothing to my salvation, as it was offered to me complete already.

I remain amazed that Calvinism does not understand this simple fact. By receiving God's gift doesn't mean we had anything to do with His gift.

The gift is His to give; complete already. It is offered complete; no need to assemble.

Now, if my salvation gift required some assembly, then I would "have a part" in my salvation. But I don't because it came complete in every way.

Here's a story that is not flawed. Think about walking down a street and coming to a homeless man who is hungry. You have a wrapped pastrami and rye sandwich with you. You hold out your hand with the sandwich in it to the man, who takes it.

Did he "have a part" in your sandwich?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's not what I said. I said faith comes later as it is what is also given to us at the moment of regeneration.

But Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved (made alive from v.5) through faith. Therefore, faith comes SOONER, not later.

...are you still denying faith is a gift from God?

Faith as a noun is a gift. God gives us the body of knowledge (faith) that we are to believe.

The action of believing is not a gift.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You have no part in your salvation. It is all God. Regeneration then faith. Or do you claim you have a part in your salvation?

Why then are not all in Christ? If regeneration comes first.

 

[-57]

Why then are not all in Christ? If regeneration comes first.

Can you answer the question? If you can't that's OK.

 

[-57]

But Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved (made alive from v.5) through faith. Therefore, faith comes SOONER, not later.


Faith as a noun is a gift. God gives us the body of knowledge (faith) that we are to believe.

The action of believing is not a gift.

Why doesn't God give everybody enough faith to believe? (that seems to be your claim. Correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can you answer the question? If you can't that's OK.

I come to God in faith and belief.

Now answer my previous question. Thanks.

 

[-57]

I come to God in faith and belief.

Now answer my previous question. Thanks.

Actually God came to you. Chose you.
What makes you seem so special that you had the ability to choose Jesus as your savior?

 

[nobdysfool]

Why then are not all in Christ? If regeneration comes first.

Because God is not obligated to regenerate even one person. Whom He does regenerate are those whom He ordained to salvation, and foreknew (not what they would do, but who they would be). Tough as it may be to swallow, God predestined some to salvation, and did not predestine others to salvation. That is His right to do as Sovereign God. Why he did so that way has not been fully revealed to us (mankind). Every person plays a part in His Plan. Man is not and cannot thwart God's Plan and Purpose. It is all proceeding according to His Plan and Purpose.

And before the "I won't serve a God like that!" meme comes up, my answer to that is "You have no choice! Serve Him and live, or reject Him and die." Job 38ff is a good remedy for those who think their so-called "free will" is equal to God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Actually God came to you. Chose you.
What makes you seem so special that you had the ability to choose Jesus as your savior?

No. No. No. It does not work that way, we come to Christ in faith.

 

[-57]

No. No. No. It does not work that way, we come to Christ in faith.

Who calls you? Draws you? Gives you to Jesus? Regenerates you? Gives you the faith to believe?

 

[-57]

Yes, the regeneration is of His grace, faith coming after and good works after that.
Notice our faith is not even mentioned here by Paul, just His grace, the faith comes later.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

as it says above....He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[sdowney717]

No. No. No. It does not work that way, we come to Christ in faith.

Actually you were a lost sheep. And Christ goes after His lost sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"But Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved (made alive from v.5) through faith. Therefore, faith comes SOONER, not later.

Faith as a noun is a gift. God gives us the body of knowledge (faith) that we are to believe.

The action of believing is not a gift."

Why doesn't God give everybody enough faith to believe? (that seems to be your claim. Correct me if I'm wrong)

I don't see any connection between my comment and your response. I noted from Scripture that salvation (being made alive) is through faith. Proving that faith (belief in the gospel) precedes regeneration. Which you've not refuted.

God has given "enough faith" for everyone to believe. But not all do, for a wide variety of reasons. It ranges from complete antagonism towards God, as seen in activist atheists, to complete indifference.

btw, the question you posed as if to be my "claim" isn't. I don't think the question is even legitimate. It's not about "having enough faith to believe".

It's about believing "the faith". Seems most get it backward. Faith is a noun. To believe is a verb. The verb is directed to the noun.

iow, we believe "the faith".