This seems to sum things up in the Protestant/Catholic debate...

[FireDragon76]

And of course the cross is spoken of as a baptism.. are you sure you have read the bible?

We are not justified before God by reading the Bible, but by faith.

I hear the Bible read every Sunday. I read the Daily Office a few times a week, and it always has some readings from the Bible. I have read all the New Testament through several times in my life. But my memory is not what it used to be.

Tell us what the Lord is speaking of here with respect to this baptism..

I suppose he is talking about the Cross. But, I still don't see what that has to do with anything. We appropriate the benefits of his baptism of the Cross through our Baptism and the Lord's Supper. It is there he makes his promises known to us and makes us new creatures.

 

[FireDragon76]

Who claimed the Catholic Church teaches anything else? I mentioned a concern to firedragon

Just FYI, I'm not Roman Catholic. I'm a liturgical mainline Protestant. But I agree with the bulk of Roman Catholic teachings. Many Protestants do. In the past, European politics obscured what we have in common, and that was very wrong. Since Vatican II, both groups, Protestants and Catholics, have worked to heal this division.

 

[seekingsolace]

Just FYI, I'm not Roman Catholic. I'm a liturgical mainline Protestant. But I agree with the bulk of Roman Catholic teachings. Many Protestants do. In the past, European politics obscured what we have in common, and that was very wrong. Since Vatican II, both groups, Protestants and Catholics, have worked to heal this division.

I know you aren't RCC, was just addressing an ambiguous statement. I meant no offence.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sorry I kept what was relevant. The issue was that of salvation, not the life of a believer.

Who claimed the Catholic Church teaches anything else? I mentioned a concern to firedragon.

Then why would I have disagreed? Catholics believe our salvation is only by God's grace. Our works proceed from that grace. I believe Firedragon believes the same thing.

You could have bolded what you were addressing, rather than remove the essence of what I said, but no worries.

 

[seekingsolace]

Then why would I have disagreed? Catholics believe our salvation is only by God's grace. Our works proceed from that grace. I believe Firedragon believes the same thing.

You could have bolded what you were addressing, rather than remove the essence of what I said, but no worries.

I didn't intend for it to cause offence. It seemed the conversation was going on a tangent so I tried to redirect it.

 

[FireDragon76]

Then why would I have disagreed? Catholics believe our salvation is only by God's grace. Our works proceed from that grace. I believe Firedragon believes the same thing.

Yeah. There is no disagreement between Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants here. The two groups have different emphases, but it is the belief of many theologians there is little or no essential disagreement.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

We are not justified before God by reading the Bible, but by faith.

Has anyone claimed different?

I hear the Bible read every Sunday. I read the Daily Office a few times a week, and it always has some readings from the Bible. I have read all the New Testament through several times in my life. But my memory is not what it used to be.

That's good knowing that faith comes by hearing..

I suppose he is talking about the Cross. But, I still don't see what that has to do with anything.

That's what saves us, His FINISHED work upon that cross at Calvary where He by Himself purged our sins.

We appropriate the benefits of his baptism of the Cross through our Baptism and the Lord's Supper. It is there he makes his promises known to us and makes us new creatures.

As you just said, we're justified by FAITH.. in His finished work. If there is anything else in the way of THAT, then it becomes His precious shed blood AND ________

And there is nothing besides His precious shed blood which saves us.

 

[FireDragon76]

And there is nothing besides His precious shed blood which saves us.

If you want me to get behind faith in the blood of Christ, you are preaching to the choir here
, considering that the blood of the Lord's Supper is the very same blood which was shed for us.

And I think that wraps up what I have to say on this topic.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

If you want me to get behind faith in the blood of Christ, you are preaching to the choir here
, considering that the blood of the Lord's Supper is the very same blood which was shed for us.

And I think that wraps up what I have to say on this topic.

If you understood the OT you would know that it's forbidden to drink blood. THEN there is the problem of His blood being shed.. so where's this blood you drink coming from?

WE no longer know the LORD after the FLESH.. though we have known Him thus.. so where's it coming from?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Let me guess.. a man in some assembly is saying a prayer and then his cup of wine turns into blood, right?

 

[FireDragon76]

Sigh, I'm breaking my own rule but... if drinking blood is forbidden in this dispensation... why did Christ say "This is my blood of the New Covenant"? Are you saying that Jesus doesn't really mean what he says he means?

This is the problem with understanding the Bible in a non-Christocentric manner, outside the historic Church. You read into it anything you want, regardless of the Biblical canon's patrimony. The Gospels are more important than the Old Testament. Christ's words more important than Moses'. We interpret the Old Testament in light of the New, not the other way around.

Let me guess.. a man in some assembly is saying a prayer and then his cup of wine turns into blood, right?

It's Christ himself saying it, through the minister, using his own words. And it's not a physical change in the elements necessarily, it's a presence whose mechanism cannot and need not be explained.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Sigh, I'm breaking my own rule but... if drinking blood is forbidden in this dispensation... why did Christ say "This is my blood of the New Covenant"? Are you saying that Jesus doesn't really mean what he says he means?

Because He was going to the cross willingly to shed it for the forgiveness of our sins. Every Jew there at the time knew perfectly well that they were not drinking His blood.. if they needed to do that then the Lord would have cut Himself open and poured it into the cup for them.

This is the problem with understanding the Bible in a non-Christocentric manner, outside the historic Church. You read into it anything you want, regardless of the Biblical canon's patrimony. The Gospels are more important than the Old Testament. Christ's words more important than Moses'. We interpret the Old Testament in light of the New, not the other way around.

The problem with drinking blood is that His blood was shed, that's why I asked where it's coming from?

It's Christ himself saying it, through the minister, using his own words. And it's not a physical change in the elements necessarily, it's a presence whose mechanism cannot and need not be explained.

Again, because that's how we remember Him in His death til He comes.. by that precious shed blood that was shed for us where He bore our sin in His own body on that tree.

 

[FireDragon76]

Every Jew there at the time knew perfectly well that they were not drinking His blood

Of course some found it offensive, so they left.Remember, many of his disciples left him when he told them they must drink his blood to have eternal life.

Jesus challenged Jewish conventions in many ways, and how they interpreted the Law, why is this surprising to that he should say that the disciples must drink his blood?

The problem with drinking blood is that His blood was shed, that's why I asked where it's coming from?

It's a mystery of faith.

As ViaCrucis has said before, you don't think every drop of blood was purged from his body when he died, or that his resurrected body has no blood in it now?

Again, because that's how we remember Him in His death til He comes.. by that precious shed blood that was shed for us where He bore our sin in His own body on that tree.

It's not a remembrance, it is a participation in his divine life. That is why he gave us this sacrament, so that we should "evermore dwell in him, and he in us", in the words of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. By the power of the Holy Spirit, he becomes present for us until he comes again in glory.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Of course some found it offensive, so they left.Remember, many of his disciples left him when he told them they must drink his blood to have eternal life.

And that is exactly WHY they left, because they took Him literally.. the WORD made flesh.. the one who has the WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE..

He isn't literally a Lamb as in an animal although He is of course the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

As ViaCrucis has said before, you don't think every drop of blood was purged from his body when he died, or that his resurrected body has no blood in it now?

I can't be dogmatic about it.. although He did tell Thomas that He had FLESH and BONE.. the exact same thing that He calls His body in Eph 5.. we are not His BLOOD, but we ARE His FLESH and His BONE.

It's not a remembrance, it is a participation in his divine life. That is why he gave us this sacrament, so that we should "evermore dwell in him, and he in us", in the words of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. By the power of the Holy Spirit, he becomes present for us until he comes again in glory.

If you're a true believer He is already IN YOU, and He shall never leave you nor forsake you. On the other hand, if you're not truly His and have not His Spirit, then I could understand why eating Him might be so important.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Unless you're a babe in Christ, you should know if His Spirit is in you or not. Even then it doesn't take long to realize this once you're His..

So if you're not sure, then there must be a reason WHY.. and if you're not sure about it.. remember that the LORD wants to give you everything there is in His Son.. so I would go to my room and ask Him for help in this matter.. I would personally literally fall on my face and ask Him into your heart.. you don't need to understand everything, just truly believe that He ALONE died for your sin (willingly) on that forsaken cross.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I remember not too long ago I learned an important lesson (and had to be corrected) from a few brothers here. That His BLOOD is in heaven.. Hebrews 12 says this..

..but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Rick Otto]

Liturgical music is worship, so to paraphrase what you said, you get bored out of your skull with worship. Doesn't surprise me. And I wonder why you would judge people regarding how we worship.
The poignant part of the Jews saying "This is a hard saying" and walking away, is that Jesus did not chase after them and try to re-explain what he meant. He meant what he said, and they didn't accept it. It's you who can't process mysticism.

As confused as all that is, I'm certain you believe it's true even though none of it is.
There is nothing coherent about it except your intent to discredit me.
I do grow tired of such petty maliciousness.

 

[Root of Jesse]

As confused as all that is, I'm certain you believe it's true even though none of it is.
There is nothing coherent about it except your intent to discredit me.
I do grow tired of such petty maliciousness.

None of what I said is malicious.