This seems to sum things up in the Protestant/Catholic debate...

[ThatTrueLight]

Who SEALED them with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the Day of redemption after they believed?

 

[FireDragon76]

What does any of this have to do with salvation? This is concerning the life of the believer.

If you are really saved, you will want to gather with others to hear the Holy Gospel preached and to make the Eucharist (the Great Thanksgiving), to receive the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Blessing in the Lord's Supper. This is what the faithful have always done.

 

[seekingsolace]

If you are really saved, you will want to gather with others to make the Eucharist (the Great Thanksgiving), to receive the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Blessing in the Lord's Supper. This is what the faithful have always done.

Again, this is not what was being debated. No person is denying the importance of fellowship and communion.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It's analogous to Abraham believing and then receiving the sign of circumcision which is the seal of the righteousness of faith.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Everyone who believed in the New Testament was baptized and got involved in their local congregations. They heard the teachings of the successors to the apostles, they received the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Blessing from those whom the apostles laid hands on. It is this novel idea that Christianity is "me and my Bible" that is the problem here. It is simply unscriptural, it's a syncretic non-Christian religion.

Go read the Didache. It is one of the earliest Christian documents outside the New Testament. Their worship was absolutely liturgical and the Lord's Supper was at the center of it.

Amen.

 

[FireDragon76]

Who SEALED them with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the Day of redemption after they believed?

Christ himself does this, through the ministry of those lawfully ordained or installed for that purpose. This is why the name of Jesus Christ is invoked so often in our sacraments. A name has power, and Christ gave that power to the Church.

You are used to seeing some priest or pastor as a "leader", he is really a servant of God, doing God's work.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What does any of this have to do with salvation? This is concerning the life of the believer.

Just...everything. We live our faith 24 hours a day, and by God's grace are saved.

 

[seekingsolace]

and by God's grace are saved.

So you agree.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Just...everything. We live our faith 24 hours a day, and by God's grace are saved.

So you agree.

Impolite to cut out what I really said. But to your point, if you think the Catholic Church teaches ANYthing else, you don't know Catholicism as you should. But living your faith is important. If you don't RESPOND to God's grace, you will be turned away.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Christ himself does this, through the ministry of those lawfully ordained or installed for that purpose. This is why the name of Jesus Christ is invoked so often in our sacraments. A name has power, and Christ gave that power to the Church.

You are used to seeing some priest or pastor as a "leader", he is really a servant of God, doing God's work.

By your own admission then, God alone saves.. there's not a man anywhere who has sealed any other man with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.

For example, when a priest baptizes an infant, or even an adult for that matter.. THAT saves nobody.

 

[FireDragon76]

Again, this is not what was being debated. No person is denying the importance of fellowship and communion.

Well, if it's just a memorial meal to remind us of Christ's death... why do it except blind obedience? I could be reminded of Christ's death just as easily as looking at a crucifix or reading the Gospels. It seems rather pointless God created a ritual with no benefit for us.

That explains why the typical Baptist church has infrequent communion. Because the theology says "it's not important". "Jesus is always present with us", they say, which is something you cannot verify the way you can with the sacrament of Holy Communion. God has bound himself to us in a covenant to be with us sacramentally every time we get together to celebrate his Supper.

No, the sacrament is not just about his death. It is also about the promise of new life he gives to us, ascended into heaven at the right hand of God, but also present for us under the bread and wine. For a brief period, earth is in heaven, the Holy Table is surrounded by angels, archangels, and powers, and we all sign praise to the Lamb who feeds us of himself.

I will tell you, frequent communion makes it no less important to me. It doesn't work that way. How could being with Jesus possibly become ordinary to a true believer?

 

[FireDragon76]

For example, when a priest baptizes an infant, or even an adult for that matter.. THAT saves nobody.

The Bible contradicts you. 1st Peter 3:21

It's not just "baptism", "getting wet". It is performing the baptism in the name of Jesus in the Holy Trinity. Then the minister performs the Baptism, but it is God's work. Baptism is not a work, it is a gift from God to the believer.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The Bible contradicts you. 1st Peter 3:21

Show me where that says a man baptizing another man saves them?

1 Peter is speaking of Christ's baptism upon the cross of Calvary.. His baptism saves us.. where He by Himself purged us from our sins.

 

[FireDragon76]

Show me where that says a man baptizing another man saves them?

1 Peter is speaking of Christ's baptism upon the cross of Calvary.. His baptism saves us.. where He by Himself purged us from our sins.

The Cross is not a baptism. It's many things but its not a baptism.

I've never heard anyone teach what you are teaching. Why is that? Don't you think that is a bit strange? How could billions of Christians possibly be wrong on this issue, and you alone are right?

I do believe people can be saved that aren't baptized. No historical church teaches they cannot be. However, such situations are extraordinary.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

The Cross is not a baptism. It's many things but its not a baptism.

I've never heard anyone teach what you are teaching. Why is that? Don't you think that is a bit strange? How could billions of Christians possibly be wrong on this issue, and you alone are right?

Wrong again, read what it says... it's speaking of CHRIST suffering for sin and being raised from the dead.

And of course the cross is spoken of as a baptism.. are you sure you have read the bible?

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Tell us what the Lord is speaking of here with respect to this baptism..

 

[ThatTrueLight]

In fact, when we are baptized we are losing our life and being raised in His.. it is the very essence of what baptism is..dying and being raised from the dead.

 

[FireDragon76]

Liturgical music is worship, so to paraphrase what you said, you get bored out of your skull with worship. Doesn't surprise me.

I wonder if he thinks worship is supposed to be "entertaining"?

I get bored at church too sometimes. It's not necessarily a comment on the service, it just represents the Old Adam reasserting himself.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Man does not, but God works through men to do his work. He ordains it. Christ ordained apostles to go with authority and baptize and teach. Every major Protestant group teaches they have the authority of the apostles.

A Christian of one is NO Christian at all. Satan will become your Pastor soon enough in such a case.

whoever drinks the bread and cup unworthily sins against the body and blood of Christ , because they are joined together in the Lord's Supper. That is implied in the verse 11:27. Ordinary bread causes no sin if consumed unworthily, only something that has been set aside for a sacred use could do that. The sacred use is to be for God's people the body and blood of Christ.

Our head must serve a heart illumined by the Holy Spirit and showing forth the fruits of faith.

Man does not, but God works through men to do his work. He ordains it. Christ ordained apostles to go with authority and baptize and teach. Every major Protestant group teaches they have the authority of the apostles.

There are so many things that I see here that are true but are taken the wrong way to implicate a human being having authority that belongs to the Holy Spirit. Let's look at all the 12 disciples at the time of the last supper. Who was eating and drinking unworthly? Judas. Did they all examine themselves to see if it was them? Yes, they did. If you want to take that as a literal interpretation of the scripture then there it is. The sacredness is in leaving the offering there and in the reconciliation to Himself.

Your right that our head must serve a heart illuminated by the Holy Spirit and showing forth the fruits of faith. The number one thing that Jesus thru the Holy Spirit demands is one faith (receiving thru the Holy Spirit) one Lord (who elects us all but needs us to examine ourselves to be sure the old nature does not rule) and one spirit ( humanly of love thru His Holy Spirit)

That to me covers the whole aspect of sacramental taking and receiving of bread and wine.

 

[seekingsolace]

Impolite to cut out what I really said. But to your point, if you think the Catholic Church teaches ANYthing else, you don't know Catholicism as you should. But living your faith is important. If you don't RESPOND to God's grace, you will be turned away.

Sorry I kept what was relevant. The issue was that of salvation, not the life of a believer.

Who claimed the Catholic Church teaches anything else? I mentioned a concern to firedragon.

 

[seekingsolace]

Well, if it's just a memorial meal to remind us of Christ's death... why do it except blind obedience? I could be reminded of Christ's death just as easily as looking at a crucifix or reading the Gospels. It seems rather pointless God created a ritual with no benefit for us.

That explains why the typical Baptist church has infrequent communion. Because the theology says "it's not important". "Jesus is always present with us", they say, which is something you cannot verify the way you can with the sacrament of Holy Communion. God has bound himself to us in a covenant to be with us sacramentally every time we get together to celebrate his Supper.

No, the sacrament is not just about his death. It is also about the promise of new life he gives to us, ascended into heaven at the right hand of God, but also present for us under the bread and wine. For a brief period, earth is in heaven, the Holy Table is surrounded by angels, archangels, and powers, and we all sign praise to the Lamb who feeds us of himself.

I will tell you, frequent communion makes it no less important to me. It doesn't work that way. How could being with Jesus possibly become ordinary to a true believer?

I don't think anyone claims communion is "not important", my view leans towards spiritual presence. I'm not sure if your message was meant for another, did I say communion was a death ritual or an ordinary event?

Sorry if you thought that was my impression. In no way do I take away from the importance of the Lords Supper.