This seems to sum things up in the Protestant/Catholic debate...

[ThatTrueLight]

SS, saying the body of Christ , the Church, is made of flesh and bone is adding to what Scriptures say. The Church is a people, nowhere does the Scriptures say the people of God are "flesh and bone". You are just using this intellectually dishonesty to skirt around the real issue, that whoever drinks the bread and cup unworthily sins against the body and blood of Christ , because they are joined together in the Lord's Supper.

Then you're ignorant of the scriptures.. a common theme..

Eph 5

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Now let's see if you're able to admit being wrong.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

And perhaps an apology for saying that I'm intellectually dishonest.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am wrong, and I apologize. You have a superior knowledge of Scriptures, for sure, on a technical point But I still believe you are wrong about the Lord's Supper. Just having a "Head-knowledge" of the Bible is not enough, we also need virtues that come from a living faith.

I don't spend hours reading the Bible... that is not actually required to be a Christian, nor was it necessarily the intention of the Reformers. All that is required is that I have faith in Christ, which I do. Part of that faith is that he has baptized me, accepted me as one of his own by the water and the Spirit, and that I feed on him in the Holy Eucharist. I also trust in priests or pastors that show the fruits of the Spirit to teach me and instruct me in the faith.

On the contrary, I have encountered preachers and pastors, not evidencing the fruits of the Spirit, that lead a great many souls to spiritual harm and that teach erroneous doctrines. When I was a teenager I hung out with one such group, being innocent and wanting to know the things of God after being raised a nominal Methodist and having a deep hunger to know God. They were mostly Baptists. They taught that real Christians burn rock music albums and books. The husband of the sunday school teacher was a religious fanatic that bought fantasy books just so that other people could not, then he burned them. They were judgmental and legalistic in their own way, even if they knew the Scriptures far better than me. Thank God they never rebaptized me, but I have learned to be more discerning. It's not just about head knowledge of the Bible, something I was prone to believing because I am inherently intellectual. Our head must serve a heart illumined by the Holy Spirit and showing forth the fruits of faith.

That is my only concern in this discussion. Not who reads the Bible more and takes it seriously- I believe we both take the Bible seriously, but perhaps I should be reading the Bible a bit more than I do. I am busy a lot and seldom feel I have time for it. But the faith of Christ was meant for His Church, not for individuals alone. It is not all about "me and my Bible", Christianity is inherently confessional, not individualistic.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I am wrong, and I apologize.

Accepted Brother! And My sincere apologies anytime I may offend.. and I know that I'm good at that, I need to get a lot worse at that.

You have a superior knowledge of Scriptures, for sure, on a technical point But I still believe you are wrong about the Lord's Supper. Just having a "Head-knowledge" of the Bible is not enough, we also need virtues that come from a living faith.

It's fine to be wrong, I welcome it.. in fact being wrong is part of GROWING in the grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.. I personally wish Christians would welcome being wrong more often. It's a GOOD THING to be corrected by the word of God.

And while it's possible to have head knowledge without virtue, I do believe that I have Christ in me, my hope of glory.

I don't spend hours reading the Bible... that is not actually required to be a Christian, nor was it necessarily the intention of the Reformers. All that is required is that I have faith in Christ, which I do. Part of that faith is that he has baptized me, accepted me as one of his own by the water and the Spirit, and that I feed on him in the Holy Eucharist. I also trust in priests or pastors that show the fruits of the Spirit to teach me and instruct me in the faith.

My advice would be to spend hours in the word in prayer, and less listening to men who are not any different than you. Men can be deceived with the greatest intentions, that is why the Sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, is such a vital piece of the full armour of God. Without it we have NO HOPE of standing against the wiles of the devil.

 

[FireDragon76]

Truelight, listening to men is what the Scriptures command:

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." 2nd Thessalonians 2:15

".. I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." 1st Timothy 3:15

St. Paul does not have a low view of the Church at all. For him it is not just as assembly of individual men and women. It's something far more than that. God has ordained that our salvation is tied up with our brothers and sisters, this even reflects on his Trinitarian nature as a community of three divine persons sharing one common essence. He has ordained that we work out our salvation together.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Truelight, listening to men is what the Scriptures command:

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." 2nd Thessalonians 2:15

".. I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." 1st Timothy 3:15

St. Paul does not have a low view of the Church at all. For him it is not just as assembly of individual men and women. It's something far more than that. God has ordained that our salvation is tied up with our brothers and sisters, this even reflects on his Trinitarian nature as a community of three divine persons sharing one common essence. He has ordained that we work out our salvation together.

Once again I disagree.. men can have the best intentions and be dead wrong.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

And of course Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.. and let God be true and all men be liars.

 

[Root of Jesse]

27 pages and counting. I guess that didn't sum things up.

I don't claim to speak for anyone else, and was expecting lots of comments.

 

[FireDragon76]

Truelight, you are presenting a false dichotomy. Faith in Man OR God. Faith in the Church OR God. It's a false dichotomy that I don't face.

Don't you realize that faith in Christ is faith in man? Christ is a man, the perfect man. He has ordained our salvation to come through our humanity, not separated from it.

I don't believe any man is infallible. But that also includes me, if I am to be humble, which Christ commands. That means I need to submit to other people, put my own personal opinions aside enough to trust God to work through them for my salvation.

You may not realize this but you are engaged in a religious syncretism. Chances are you are an American. Americans believe in their own ability to decide for themselves what is true and what is not, to be "captain of their own soul". Many Christians have absorbed it living in America, because we take it for granted as part of our consumerist culture. You can go to Burger King after all and "have it your way". Everything is customizeable and self-expressive. But this is not Christian, in fact it is anti-Christian.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Truelight, you are presenting a false dichotomy. Faith in Man OR God. Faith in the Church OR God. It's a false dichotomy that I don't face.

Don't you realize that faith in Christ is faith in man? Christ is a man, the perfect man. He has ordained our salvation to come through our humanity, not separated from it.

The Lord Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.. He is God and He ALONE is TRUTH.

I don't believe any man is infallible. But that also includes me, if I am to be humble, which Christ commands. That means I need to submit to other people, put my own personal opinions aside enough to trust God to work through them for my salvation.

Christ ALONE saves.. there is not a thing that ANY MAN does that saves another man.. nothing, not baptizing them, not confirming them... nothing even remotely close to that.. men are saved by the precious shed blood of Christ alone, and they are SEALED by God unto the day of redemption when they believe on Him.

You may not realize this but you are engaged in a religious syncretism. Chances are you are an American. You believe in your own ability to decide for yourself what is true and what is not, to be "captain of their own soul". Many Christians have absorbed it living in America, because we take it for granted as part of our consumerist culture. You can go to Burger King after all and "have it your way". Everything is customizeable and self-expressive. But this is not Christian, in fact it is anti-Christian.

What part of let God be TRUE and every man a liar didn't you understand me saying?

 

[seekingsolace]

Truelight, you are presenting a false dichotomy. Faith in Man OR God. Faith in the Church OR God. It's a false dichotomy that I don't face.

Don't you realize that faith in Christ is faith in man? Christ is a man, the perfect man. He has ordained our salvation to come through our humanity, not separated from it.

I don't believe any man is infallible. But that also includes me, if I am to be humble, which Christ commands. That means I need to submit to other people, put my own personal opinions aside enough to trust God to work through them for my salvation.

So you are ready to accept the teachings of fallible men, over the inerrant word of God?

Are you saved by Grace through faith in Christ, or man? The Bible has everything you need to live a godly life and save you.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christ ALONE saves.. there is not a thing that ANY MAN does that saves another man..

False dichotomy. Christ alone saves... that was coined by the early Protestants, and yet they did not understand it the way you do. A visible Church was the ordinary means of salvation for them. So your understanding of that term, "Christ alone" is new, novel, recent innovation. It is not what the apostles taught.

What part of let God be TRUE and every man a liar didn't you understand me saying?

Taken out of context and used to justify your own autonomy. I used to think exactly like this. Remember a few months ago? People were correcting me here a lot, and frankly I was acting like a heathen. Then I realized I needed the Church, I needed other Christians. And you know what, the Holy Spirit confirmed it as well.

The Church is a messy place but that messiness is part of the work God has given us to do for our salvation so we can grow into the kind of creatures he wants us to be.

And again, pitting the Bible against men is a false dichotomy. The Bible may or may not be inerrant (I am not a fundamentalist on that issue), but it definitely is a matter of interpretation. And I have to be humble enough to be willing to submit my interpertations to the Church, to Christian community, and not be autonomous.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

False dichotomy. Christ alone saves... that was coined by the early Protestants, and yet they did not understand it the way you do. A visible Church was the ordinary means of salvation for them. So your understanding of that term, "Christ alone" is new, novel, recent innovation. It is not what the apostles taught.

What does any man do to save another man?

 

[FireDragon76]

What does any man do to save another man?

Man does not, but God works through men to do his work. He ordains it. Christ ordained apostles to go with authority and baptize and teach. Every major Protestant group teaches they have the authority of the apostles.

A Christian of one is NO Christian at all. Satan will become your Pastor soon enough in such a case.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Man does not, but God works through men to do his work. He ordains it. Christ ordained apostles to go with authority and baptize and teach. Every major Protestant group teaches they have the authority of the apostles.

A Christian of one is NO Christian at all. Satan will become your Pastor soon enough in such a case.

Once again, what does any man do to save another man? Will you answer that for me?

 

[Root of Jesse]

It isn't an "intellectual exercise" for me either, although that part is important. I get bored out of my skull with the droning of traditional liturgical music and it's hyper focus on the wording. The weirdest part for me however is when everyone completely shuts down their intellect as if they and Jesus don't know what a metaphor is, and something supernatural is happening outside themselves, inside the bread and wine.
My take is that the people who walked away and the reason it was a "hard saying" is because so many people are so literalist in their thinking, they can't process metaphor.

Liturgical music is worship, so to paraphrase what you said, you get bored out of your skull with worship. Doesn't surprise me. And I wonder why you would judge people regarding how we worship.
The poignant part of the Jews saying "This is a hard saying" and walking away, is that Jesus did not chase after them and try to re-explain what he meant. He meant what he said, and they didn't accept it. It's you who can't process mysticism.

 

[seekingsolace]

False dichotomy. Christ alone saves... that was coined by the early Protestants, and yet they did not understand it the way you do. A visible Church was the ordinary means of salvation for them. So your understanding of that term, "Christ alone" is new, novel, recent innovation. It is not what the apostles taught.

I'm fairly sure the Apostles quite clearly defined the means to salvation in the Gospels. Your comments are starting to get concerning.

Acts 26:18 – to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Ephesians 1:7-8: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence

Ephesians:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is not to be taken lightly because of what it signifies.

That still doesn't make sense, if what it signifies were not in fact communicated through the sign of bread and wine, especially given the Scriptural context in 1st Corinthians 11.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm fairly sure the Apostles quite clearly defined the means to salvation in the Gospels. Your comments are starting to get concerning.

Everyone who believed in the New Testament was baptized and got involved in their local congregations. They heard the teachings of the successors to the apostles, they received the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Blessing from those whom the apostles laid hands on. It is this novel idea that Christianity is "me and my Bible" that is the problem here. It is simply unscriptural, it's a syncretic non-Christian religion.

Go read the Didache. It is one of the earliest Christian documents outside the New Testament. Their worship was absolutely liturgical and the Lord's Supper was at the center of it.

 

[seekingsolace]

That still doesn't make sense, if what it signifies were not in fact communicated through the sign of bread and wine, especially given the Scriptural context in 1st Corinthians 11.

Sure it does, they are gathered in Church for a purpose. A spiritual presence does not have to be a physical manifestation of blood and flesh.

 

[seekingsolace]

Everyone who believed in the New Testament was baptized and got involved in their local congregations. They heard the teachings of the successors to the apostles, they received Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Blessing from those whom the apostles laid hands on. It is this novel idea that Christianity is "me and my Bible" that is the problem here. It is simply unscriptural, it's a syncretic non-Christian religion.

What does any of this have to do with salvation? This is concerning the life of the believer.