This seems to sum things up in the Protestant/Catholic debate...

[Root of Jesse]

Protestant Zero Sum Theology:
There is one pie with only so many pieces in that pie. It’s either all Jesus or Jesus has to share slices of that pie with other entities (Pope, Mary, Saints, priests). If the Pope is important, he somehow takes away from
Jesus. If Mary is important, she must be taking something away from Jesus. This is the zero-sum problem. It’s all about addition and subtraction: zero sum.

Catholic Participation Theology:
Christ as a Divine Person of the Trinity can use creatures to magnify His power, grace and glory. So it’s not about addition or subtraction, but about multiplication. The Pope doesn’t subtract from Christ. His office participates within Christ. Mary doesn’t subtract, instead her “soul magnifies the
Lord.”


Fire away!

 

[Optimax]

Check this verse.

Pope is not in the list.

Priest is not in the list.

The Only Priest is Jesus, He is High Priest.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; KJV

Pope is man's idea not a gift to born again people from Jesus.

 

[Steeno7]

Correct. What separates the RCC from the rest of Christianity is the many things they have added to Christ. Anything added to Christ, takes away from Christ.

 

[Akibahara]

I believe there's a "saved Catholic" and a "saved Protestant." All you have to do is fully trust Jesus Christ as Lord, he alone atones for our sins, and we're willing to repent of them - if a Catholic believed this, and fully believed in other Catholic doctrine unrelated to salvation, I believe he or she is saved.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Check this verse.

Pope is not in the list.

Priest is not in the list.

The Only Priest is Jesus, He is High Priest.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; KJV

Pope is man's idea not a gift to born again people from Jesus.

If you read the Greek for Eph 4:11, the word ποιμένας actually means "Shepherd".

Words don't matter, both priests and pastors (which are synonyms) describe men/women who have the job of nurturing Christ's sheep.

 

[Souldier]

If you read the Greek for Eph 4:11, the word ποιμένας actually means "Shepherd".

Words don't matter, both priests and pastors (which are synonyms) describe men/women who have the job of nurturing Christ's sheep.

There is only one shepherd. Thats the reality we must be learning. If a Church doesn't teach their flock this truth then the flock will never grow but will remain infants in Christ. No man can be our advocate when we stand before God. The pope will not be there, nor will any other man be able to speak for us. Christ Himself will say "well done, you fed me when i was hungry, and you clothed me when i was naked". We must all stand on our own and follow the spirit. This can only be done by following the words of Christ.



John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Optimax]

If you read the Greek for Eph 4:11, the word ποιμένας actually means "Shepherd".

Words don't matter, both priests and pastors (which are synonyms) describe men/women who have the job of nurturing Christ's sheep.

If words do not matter as you said.

Then your argument is mute to start with.

The words in the OP don't matter.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree. I don't believe Luther intended to do so, but people ran with his ideas and created a minimalist form of Christianity that has little to say about the created means that God uses to dispense his grace (and no, I'm NOT talking about church sacraments, but a sacramental view of life as articulated by Fr. Alexander Schmeeman). There's nothing "sacred" in the world anymore for the Protestant, except words. This leads to a very intellectualized spirituality that is almost gnostic in tone and disembodied.

But as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[BobRyan]

Protestant Zero Sum Theology:
There is one pie with only so many pieces in that pie. It’s either all Jesus or Jesus has to share slices of that pie with other entities (Pope, Mary, Saints, priests). If the Pope is important, he somehow takes away from
Jesus. If Mary is important, she must be taking something away from Jesus. This is the zero-sum problem. It’s all about addition and subtraction: zero sum.

Catholic Participation Theology:
Christ as a Divine Person of the Trinity can use creatures to magnify His power, grace and glory. So it’s not about addition or subtraction, but about multiplication. The Pope doesn’t subtract from Christ. His office participates within Christ. Mary doesn’t subtract, instead her “soul magnifies the
Lord.”


Fire away!

The difference is that the Protestant model declares the Bible to be the rule and test of all tradition, practice doctrine - and declares that "people can read it" without having to constantly be "told what to think".

Thus "We must EACH stand before the judgment seat of God" 2Cor 5:10 and there will be no "papal appeal" accepted -- in other words no one will be allowed the excuse "well the pope told me to do it".

In the Protestant model you may not torture or kill someone or 'nicely exterminate them' for religious differences. If you do you are making a big mistake.

In the Protestant model mistakes in the past can be apologized for - and you can then simply "move on".

So then the "Christ in the Bible" - the "Gospel in the Bible" and the "Christianity that you find in the Bible" is the primary driver in the Protestant model.

And for a few protestant groups - the Bible is a "reliable trustworthy record - historic account - of sacred history" starting from Genesis 1. So then we are virgin-birth-ists, literal-resurrection-ists, creation-ists ... etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[prodromos]

There is only one shepherd. Thats the reality we must be learning. If a Church doesn't teach their flock this truth then the flock will never grow but will remain infants in Christ. No man can be our advocate when we stand before God. The pope will not be there, nor will any other man be able to speak for us. Christ Himself will say "well done, you fed me when i was hungry, and you clothed me when i was naked". We must all stand on our own and follow the spirit. This can only be done by following the words of Christ.



John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

And yet the verse from Ephesians says some are shepherds.

 

[GoingByzantine]

If words do not matter as you said.

Then your argument is mute to start with.

The words in the OP don't matter.

Your argument is based in words, you said their is no "priest" in the NT aside from Christ, when pastor and priest are both synonyms for shepherd.

 

[Souldier]

And yet the verse from Ephesians says some are shepherds.

Shepherds lead by example .The fact that some shepherds leave their flock as nothing more than infants proves that they themselves are just infants. Infants leading infants. They lead by example.

Its really carnelism. I know its sounds bad but its just the truth brother.

I good shepherd leads his flock by example, and he leads them to grow up and follow The Shepherd.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Shepherds lead by example .The fact that some shepherds leave their flock as nothing more than infants proves that they themselves are just infants. Infants leading infants. They lead by example.

Its really carnelism. I know its sounds bad but its just the truth brother.

I good shepherd leads his flock by example, and he leads them to grow up and follow The Shepherd.

What do you make of 1 Peter 5?

 

[Souldier]

What do you make of 1 Peter 5?

That is exactly the scripture im basing my opinion on. That and many others too. A good leader will lead his flock to not need him the rest of their life. He would't want them to depend on him all their lives. He would want them to learn to rely on the Lord, just as He himself does, or at least how he should be doing anyway. If the leader tries to keep people under his wing then hes not leading by good example.

This whole idea of following holy fathers and popes is counter productive to spiritual growth and walking in the spirit. We must all bear our own cross. We must all stand before God alone. We must all learn to walk in the spirit. What do you think this scripture is saying?



1 John 2:24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

The Children of God
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.





1 Co 3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.


11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I don't agree with much of what you have said so far Souldier, but some of it I definitely agree with. Nobody wants to feel "stuck" in their faith, we should always be moving closer to the lord.

 

[Souldier]

I don't agree with much of what you said Souldier, but some of it I definitely agree with. Nobody wants to feel "stuck" in their faith, we should always be moving closer to the lord.

When you have people denying that we need no teacher, and denying that the scriptures are the authority, then we have reason to be critical of all this holy fathers and pope stuff.

No Christian should ever be lead to think that scripture alone is not the authority, nor should they ever be lead to think that we must have a teacher. The truth is that teachers lead people astray, and paul has warned that in the last days people would no longer endure sound doctrine but would instead heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.

This probably sound foreign to you. It did to me as well at one time. But now i understand and i see the truth.

 

[GoingByzantine]

When you have people denying that we need no teacher, and denying that the scriptures are the authority, then we have reason to be critical of all this holy fathers and pope stuff.

No Christian should ever be lead to think that scripture alone is not the authority, nor should they ever be lead to think that we must have a teacher. The truth is that teachers lead people astray, and paul has warned that in the last days people would no longer endure sound doctrine but would instead heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.

This probably sound foreign to you. It did to me as well at one time. But now i understand and i see the truth.

I believe Christ is the authority, and that he entrusted his sheep to his disciples. Those disciples started a chain of elders that still teach today.

You have made me consider something I never have before though, when we constantly rely on others to guide us we may actually be missing out on a personal relationship with Christ. I need to consider that more.

 

[Souldier]

I believe Christ is the authority, and that he entrusted his sheep to his disciples. Those disciples started a chain of elders that still teach today.

You have made me consider something I never have before though, when we constantly rely on others to guide us we may actually be missing out on a personal relationship with Christ. I need to consider that more.

With respect, scripture is the only trusted authority. Please do not be offended by what im saying. The apostles would never have prayed to saints, or even establish this notion of "sainthood" in the first place. That contradicts the whole idea of glorying only in the Lord, and the concept of the holy spirit advocate.

They would never have treated icons as anything holy. They would preach Christ and Christ alone. They would preach putting away carlism and seeking heaven.

 

[FireDragon76]

A priest is not a leader in the sense a Protestant evangelical understands the term. He just stands in for Christ, but is himself a humble servant and has no authority beyond what is given to him by the Gospel promises to preach and proclaim the forgiveness of sins and bring souls to repentance.

 

[FireDragon76]

With respect, scripture is the only trusted authority. Please do not be offended by what im saying. The apostles would never have prayed to saints, or even establish this notion of "sainthood" in the first place

Prove it. You are just making assertions.

When the martyr Polycarp died for the faith in the early second century, everyone tried to touch his body because they regarded it as holy. Polycarp himself was instructed by the apostle John. You don't think somehow the church fell into error after only two generations, do you?

I do not see an evangelical faith based on a personal relationship with Christ in contradiction with the catholic faith as practiced by the early church, by men like Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Athanasius, and Chrysostom. It's a false dichotomy born of northern European nationalism, not a serious analysis of history.