numenorian,
Sorry about the delay as I have had internet problems.
1. Jews and gentiles are in the church today males and females etc. This church today is to make the jewish nation jealous according to Romans 9-11.
Agreed!
2. Jews are descendants of Abraham because God used him to start this nation and this race. Because Abraham was a gentile and we are saved we are of Abraham's seed spiritually.
More precisely, the Scriptures say this:
“"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,”
Romans 4:7-11
So Abraham is the spiritual father of Gentiles because the sign of circumcision was sign from God validating the faith he had BEFORE being circumcised. He "believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." This is the foundation of gospel faith.
3. Paul was talking to jews who were not believing in Jesus and he said just because they were physical descendants doesn't mean they are true jews unless they are spiritually ruled by Christ.
It is true that Jewish physical descent was no guarantee of participation in covenantal blessings. But the phraseology of "not a completed Jew", disdained by some Jews, might come closer to the mark as far as understanding Rom. 2:28-29 than saying "not a true Jew, because it avoids the implication that so many witting or unwitting replacement teachers end up saying - that Jewish physicality is irrelevant.
And in that portion, circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit. It doesn't speak about being ruled by Christ per se. The issue is the Spirit, who accompanies the gift of faith to the believer. Where there is faith, the Spirit is there, and therefore, the Church predates the New Testament period. The people of Hebrews 11 are part of the Church because the gospel criterion is and always has been RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH ALONE.
Also, I would respectfully suggest that in Romans 9-11, Paul was principally educating the Gentile contingent in the church. Why? Because Israel knows their national hope from the Scriptures (for example, see Zacharias' words when John is born and his mouth is opened - Luke 1:68-75). To the Romans, such a country as Israel was of little importance in the context of their entire empire.
Paul made references to more prophets in Romans than in all the other NT epistles combined, though he quoted more voluminously in Hebrews. They needed an education (Rom. 1:-3, 16:25-26).
This can be applied to gentiles because Israel were the ones with the covenant and the gentiles never had a covenant and Jeremiah says that Israel was offered this kingdom Where does it say this in Jeremiah? and they rejected it in Jesus day. So both jew and gentile were brought into the new covenant at Calvary where the wall of separation fell when the veil was rent into.
Like the church itself, the new covenant is not a New Testament phenomenon. The blessings of it always have been open to the believer throughout history, if we let every word of Scripture speak:
“"Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. "Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And delight yourself in abundance. "Incline your ear and come to Me.
Listen, that you may live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.”
Isaiah 55:1-3
And what were the faithful mercies shown to David?
“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."”
Romans 4:4-8
This is when gentiles were grafted in. For the reasons given above, I have to disagree. Paul said just like we were grafted in who had no covenant, the jews as the main root of the olive tree can be grafted in again. I believe it would be more accurate to view the unbelieving nation currently not as the root, but as the cut off branches because...
1) that's what Paul calls them in Rom.11
2) when grafted in, we Gentiles "became PARTAKERS OF the rich root of the olive tree", which I would suggest is being made partakers of Christ BY FAITH, because...
3) while SOME OF THE BRANCHES were broken off, it is implied that SOME REMAINED - not Gentiles newly grafted in, but faithful Jews of the past
God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING. The righteous shall LIVE by faith.So the believers of all ages stand in a living, organic unity and form the assembly, the church of all ages.
I know this flies in the face of dispensationalist presuppositions, but it is sound doctrine nonetheless.
4. Paul shows that the church age doesn't do away with the covenant and the callings of the nation of Israel as the elect that will be at the head of the nations where the law will come forth from Zion the Holy Jerusalem on earth. Isaiah 2:2-4.
AMEN! You used the verses describing my favourite scene in all the Bible. I LONG for that day...
This is a separate earthly calling from the church. Yes. When Israel is mourning "for Him as for an only son", the church is being "caught up together with Him in the clouds" to commence its heavenly administration with Christ. The latter is the privilege of those, even Jews, who believe now. Israel must be purified (Zechariah 13:9) Israel needs not merely to be purified; Israel needs to die. It is a cardinal principle in Scripture that anything to be used by God MUST pass through death and resurrection:
“"For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.” Deuteronomy 32:36
“Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"”
Ezekiel 37:11-14
and the church is being trained through suffering right now for earthly positions in the kingdom (I beg to differ. We are to rule from heavenly places, which is the high privilege of those who follow the Lord through to the Day of the Lord, and makes real such passages as Eph. 1:8-11. The administration of the earthly kingdom belongs to the Jews under Messiah)and not purified in the future tribulation (for we will be in heaven (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 19). At the beginning, in the middle being rewarded for our works and coming out of heaven after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb to do battle at Armageddon.Here is our most significant disagreement. I do not believe in a rapture at any point before the last trumpet sounds and the Lord descends (1 Cor. 15:5-52, 1 Thess. 4:15-18). These clearly speak of the Lord's return and our going up.
But there is another reason: if the church were to be raptured before the Lord's return to save Israel, it would make Jacob's trouble entirely Jacob's problem. I maintain that God has a deep reciprocal purpose for Israel and the church together until the end, and rapture at any point before constitutes an abortion of this purpose.
5. The time of Jacob's trouble is only used in conjunction with Israel. Daniel 12:1-2; Isaiah 66:7-8; Matthew 24:21. etc.
It truly is Jacob's trouble, but I submit to you that it is also the church's final exam, having failed at most points - previous tests - in history to SHOW MERCY to the Jews (see Dr. Michael Brown's book We Have Blood on Our Hands). This is what Paul describes as the purpose for our being shown mercy:
“For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.”
Romans 11:30-31
The tribulation period is our final exam, the last chance to stand up as the true church by laying down its life for Israel. To fail at this point is to ultimately fail to be the church of Jesus Christ. It is THE watershed issue for the church of the last days, which God will not allow us to escape through rapture.
6. The jewish nation will have the ministry of the 144,000 jews and the woman which is Israel in Revelation 12 will be preserved in the wilderness in the middle of the tribulation until the end of the tribulation and will be reunited with the remnant. Read Jeremiah 31:31-32 and Hebrews 8:7-13 and you will find the new covenant has never been given to the nation and will not until they look on him whom they have pierced and he forgives their sin and puts his law into their hearts and no man will teach them etc.
I believe this view of when the new covenant was given is incorrect for several reasons:
1) The new covenant is the confirmation of previous covenantal promises.
“For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."”
Romans 15:8-9
“And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people, And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant- As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old- Salvation FROM OUR ENEMIES, And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US; To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant, The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.”
Luke 1:67-75
2) The new covenantal blessings were envisioned throughout the prophets.
(Is. 4:2-4, 9:6-7, 32:15-18, 55:1-3, Jer. 33:6-9, 14-16, Ezek. 36:23-28, Hos. 14:1-5, Joel 2:28-29,Zech.13:1-2 and many, many more)
3) The new covenant answers the dilemma created by the Law of Moses:
How can an unrighteous people - which is what the Law continually exposes - possess the land permanently - when the Law promises expulsion and exile for disobedience?
Only a righteous people can permanently possess the land. Therefore, only a people IN CHRIST can possess the land permanently, which is why the new covenant has been envisioned by God as part of the everlasting covenant, along with the Abrahamic, Davidic and Mosaic covenants.
7. The new covenant with Israel and the kingdom of David were to happen in Jesus day and they rejected it[see above]. Both of these covenants were unconditionally eternal in coming true. They were also conditioned by a generation who would obey the Messiah. Have you ever read George Peter's three-volume masterpiece, The Theocratic Kingdom? That's exactly what he argues. But let's suppose all Israel had repented at the preaching of the kingdom through John and Jesus? Then why would Jesus need to die for Israel? The Bible says that Jesus was delivered up according to “the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God". Acts 2:23 NASB
Individuals are saved but collectively as a nation. Read 1 Chronicles 28:6-8. It cannot be completely and officially complete until the times of the gentiles comes to an end and their covenant will come true.
Absolutely, because "all Israel" is saved. And it HAS TO BE "all" Israel because that is what God said through Jeremiah. This is THE outstanding feature of the everlasting covenant yet unrealized.
Paul talked about this in Romans 11:25-32. Paul would have never been concerned about the nation of Israel, his physical brethren if they were not to fulfill the kingdom covenant as head of the nations. This covenant is to bring Israel and Judah together once and for all.
8. Every jew must come to the cross and they will be able to as a nation because the new covenant is already in force. They will have this knowledge at this time for they will look at him whom they have pierced (Revelation 1:7).
9. The rapture in no way prevents Israel from being saved as a nation for there will be tribulation believers and the ministry of the 144,000 jews and the 2 witnesses of which at least one of them is Elijah (Malachi 4:5,6). Zechariah 13:9 says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will be brought through the fire. Their nation will almost be snuffed out and Christ will save them at the battle of Armageddon ....and the church has an integral part to play in that process. Reciprocally, Israel is the catalyst for the church to come into the fulness of its identity as the Bride prepared for her Bridegroom, in walking the path of the cross on behalf of the stricken, beleaguered, and still-blinded nation, until the Lord appears in the clouds and they are pierced to the heart.
10. You have to understand the covenants of Israel are without repentance and will happen separate from the church. Plainly, Paul teaches that in Christ, we have been made partakers of their covenantal promises (I know that what I am saying flies in the face of dearly- held presuppositions, but I hope you will see that what I am saying is biblical):
“Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.”
Ephesians 2:11-13
The clear implication is that we are now partakers of what Israel enjoys. This is why Paul says that what Christ has done is reason "for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy" (Rom. 15:9) - because God owes us nothing, strangers as we were to the covenants of promise.
who will have a part in the earthly calling (similar to the way angels influence things now) but will also have access to other things in heaven and other places of the universal KoG.
11. So the gentile part of the church being grafted in will not prevent the nation of Israel to be grafted in again and will not prevent her from embracing the covenant God promised them about the land and the kingdom which is the covenants of Abraham and David. AMEN!
12. There will be nothing to prevent them from being purified and saved in order to accept their covenants. (Daniel 9:24-27 and Romans 11:25-32). Just because we can be called spiritual Israel (I would be careful with the term 'spiritual' Israel - it's questionable biblically (when the Bible says Israel, it means Israel, not the church; the Israel of God are believing Jews),but further, the replacement people use it a lot to justify their wholesale identity theft of the heritage of Israel in the prophetic and covenanted promises of God) doesn't do away with Israel's callings and gifts according to their earthly calling and covenant concerning the land (Abrahamic Covenant) and the Kingdom on Earth (Davidic Covenant). AMEN.
13. The true church is not physical Israel and the nation of Israel has a physical aspect of their calling on earth as head of the nations. (Isaiah 2:2-4). The church was not promised this (here's something to ponder: many places in the Psalms and Proverbs, this phraseology is used - "the righteous shall inherit the land". If "all he promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ Jesus, could we have a share too in the land? Just floating a possibility based on this promise to "the righteous"...) and the apostles will all rule over the tribes of Israel at this time. (Matthew 19).
The olive tree doctrine preventing Israel to fulfilling their covenants is not scriptural and not in correct context of the word across the board. I'm not sure what you mean about the olive tree doctrine. Are you speaking of MY references (see above) to the olive tree? I'm an arborist, a tree man, so Paul's olive tree statement is particularly special to me, and because he used it, it is doctrine. Jerry kelso
