Thinking of leaving Orthodoxy

[truefiction1]

Whatever kind of rubbish is this?

Did the woman with the flow of blood ask anyone's permission to touch the hem of Christ's garment in order to be healed?

For Christ's sake, but mostly for your own, just go and commune.

As for wives getting beatings, Holy Matrimony is the sacred vehicle into the Kingdom of God for married people. It must be made to be so. If one refuses to do this because of their choice of behaviors, they should be left. Matrimony is a most sacred and serious thing. Any kind of abuse is unacceptable.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

AMEN!

Whatever kind of rubbish is this?

Did the woman with the flow of blood ask anyone's permission to touch the hem of Christ's garment in order to be healed?

For Christ's sake, but mostly for your own, just go and commune.

As for wives getting beatings, Holy Matrimony is the sacred vehicle into the Kingdom of God for married people. It must be made to be so. If one refuses to do this because of their choice of behaviors, they should be left. Matrimony is a most sacred and serious thing. Any kind of abuse is unacceptable.

 

[Dorothea]

Hey all, I haven't posted in a while.

As the title says I am considering leaving Orthodoxy. For a while now I've realised that I don't come back form church feeling fulfilled like I used to but I've been trying to push that to the back of my mind. I've also posted a few questions here to try and sort out my thoughts. But the truth of the matter is it hasn't really helped and today I reached that moment where it dawns on me that "hey, I just don't feel part of Orthodoxy".

In the past I used to be quite involved with the church, mainly through the choir and contributing to the odd reading (this was in my early to late teens, I am 21 now) but I was pushed away from that with silly excuses like my "English accent" while I speak Romanian.

Then as I grew up I realised I don't agree with a lot of the views held within the Orthodox church. For example, I don't think it is a woman's duty to withstand beatings by her husband as was taught to us in church. When my mother asked one of the priests to pray for my father who had a problem with drink at the time, she was told that if she ever mentions anything about her husband again she will not be allowed back into the church. Another lady was told that if she doesn't stop taking (non-abortive) contraception to avoid a third cesarean section she will not be allowed have Communion. I don't believe that women should be banned from the church after having a baby until they are churched. I don't even believe women shouldn't be priests. It seems Orthodoxy is geared towards men and men alone.

Today, I hoped to receive Communion but Murphy's Law I got my period just a few minutes before going up. I faced the embarrassment of going up in front of three men and begging to please be allowed have communion only to be cut off with a definitive "No" before I could explain that I have to get three buses on the way in and another three buses on the way back and will therefore not be able to come in for Easter to try and have Communion again as there is no public transport on the day. I then had to walk away in shame in front of the whole church. I tried sitting through the sermon but for a long time the priest spoke about the importance of Communion to those who receive it and I couldn't take it any longer I went into the bathroom and cried.

All this because I have a normal functioning body which is supposed to menstruate once a month....am I supposed to wish for an unhealthy body?

I don't know what other branch of Christianity I would join, the only other branch I know well is Catholicism and I don't think I would feel comfortable there either.

I don't even know why I'm posting this....I guess I am so disappointed and disillusioned that I want somebody to tell me it's ok. I want to keep serving God but I don't know how when I don't even feel comfortable in church.

Whoa. Those are some strange teachings that were taught to you. Especially staying with an abusive husband. That is not encouraged in Orthodoxy from what I've learned. Also, the not receiving communion while menstruating is not a law either. I agree with others who have suggested a different parish. Don't give up.

 

[E.C.]

Yeah... find a new parish

 

[Mariya116]

Hi ChirpChirp, it does sound like a weird situation. I'm in a weird situation myself - I'm Orthodox but have not found an Orthodox parish where I really want to come back to or I did but they are very hard to travel to and park (NYC). So I found a whole non-Orthodox parish which I like and where I go all the time, and I'm torn too. I'm not allowed to commune there so I don't, but I do come up for Holy Unction. But I don't consider actually leaving Orthodoxy, I don't really believe in church hopping... so I'm in a weird place too. I have two priests I feel comfortable talking to - an old Orthodox father with very unconventional thinking, and the father at this Anglican parish. I'll probably ask the Orthodox father what he might suggest. I've thought of attending an Orthodox parish on a Saturday, and my dear new parish on Sunday for their high mass - the experience of CHRISTIANITY there is so powerful and amazing, some sermons directly answer questions in my heart. At the same time, you and I can't argue that Orthodox churches are the most beautiful thing visually you've ever seen. There is an Orthodox church named after St. Dimitri in Jamaica, Queens - magnificent does not begin to describe it.

Goes to show how much depends on particular parishes, on a particular individual situation. I know a guy who converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism only to discover he wasn't happy. He said it sounds good on paper, but a parish is empty, there are just a few old immigrants, and he is left wondering "Why am I here?" The last time I talked to him, he considered exploring Anglicanism...

It's really a challenge when a parish doesn't work out. Try to see what you really want to do - you are a cradle Orthodox and it's a big deal in my eyes. I would try to first see what you can do within Orthodoxy before moving elsewhere. May the Lord guide your path.

 

[Mariya116]

St. Dimitri's Greek Orthodox church in Jamaica, Queens, NY.

 

[ChirpChirp]

Hey, thanks everyone for the replies! I haven't had time to write back but I've been reading through all the comments! It's reassuring to know I'm not crazy!

I'm surprised that some of the comments were saying they had never heard of a woman being refused because of her period. I think in Romania they are very strict regarding menstruation, pretty much every Romanian woman I've talked to has been taught that it's a sin to even enter the church when you're on your period.

I think the comments about finding a different parish are very sensible. The only reason I go there is because of my Confessor who is an amazing man and has also pretty much watched me grow up the past ten years. My mom got quite upset and told him what happened, his reply was "The Lord deliver us from such antiquated nonsense".

Mariya that church is like a living icon!!

 

[Anhelyna]

ChirpChirp - I first learned of the no-Communion-while-menstruating thing from a Greek Orthodox friend - who has since got married and moved to Canada with her husband . To say I was shocked was putting it mildly !

 

[ChirpChirp]

Yeah I really hate it I kept telling myself that I just don't have enough faith to accept it but it doesn't make sense or feel right! That and not being allowed enter the church after having a baby.

 

[katherine2001]

It depends--some say that you can't receive while on your period, while others will tell you it's fine. Ask your priest. ChirpChirp, I agree with others. Maybe you can try a different parish. My sponsor's husband told me that my sponsor had been told by the priest at the Greek parish that they had originally attended (he was a priest monk) told him that women couldn't receive during their period. Our mission is OCA, so I finally asked our priest (who came once a month to serve from a parish about 90 miles away) about it and he said it was fine to receive. I was really thankful that I asked because it always seemed like I was on my period the week that he came to serve.

 

[Cappadocious]

I kept telling myself that I just don't have enough faith to accept it but it doesn't make sense or feel right!

There is a popular saying: You were baptized, not lobotomized.

I think this folk taboo about menstruation came from the following:

1. Taking the Old Testament laws as prescriptive for us today.
2. Viewing women and their bodily processes as unclean and/or inferior to men.
3. The practical difficulties which menstruation caused women prior to the advent of modern hygiene.

Of these three, only the third is an acceptable reason to give a woman for why she need not come to church or receive communion while menstruating; but, since we live in the 21st Century, why would this be an issue? As for the former two reasons, they are anti-Christian.

Read what St. Gregory Diologos wrote when he found out about this taboo:

jbburnett.com/resources/gregory-grt_menstru.pdf‎

 

[Philothei]

Yeah I really hate it I kept telling myself that I just don't have enough faith to accept it but it doesn't make sense or feel right! That and not being allowed enter the church after having a baby.

Chirp,
The canon that forbids you to enter the church after you have a baby is the SAME as for anyone who does not take communion for a period of time ...they need to reinstated to the church. Although the priest is NOT aware of their absence for over 3 Sundays they break the canon just the same as you would if you were "nursing a newborn". So there...the mothers are NOT sinful they are just bringing up a baby and they need time to be with the new born.

The canon is old and the fear of disease is the cause of this canon that a mother has to stay away not only a church gathering but ANY gathering for 3 weeks or so. In Greece we have reduced it to 15 days for the people work and need to go to work. It is not like the old days when families had one working.... So it depends on the church and the area you are. If they observe this or not.

Secondly from a pastoral perspective this prayer is terrible with the sense that puts so much emphasis on the 'blood" and bleeding...That is truly a Jewish Kosher law that was instituted by the jews about menstrual bleeding and the disgust of the woman bringing a baby in "sinful state" for it is in the bible that a woman was not to bear her babies in such a manner but it was a result from the fall.

Having explained this I want to reassure you that most or at least some priests like my husband change the wording a bit so it is not like the woman is 'dirty' etc. This prayer and others are going to be included to the next upcoming ecumenical council I guarantee you many are not happy with them at all including the funeral service Too much gloom not enough hope in the resurrection of Christ IMHO.

Do not stress over it! We are traditional but not traditionalists

 

[Philothei]

There is a popular saying: You were baptized, not lobotomized.

I think this folk taboo about menstruation came from the following:

1. Taking the Old Testament laws as prescriptive for us today.
2. Viewing women and their bodily processes as unclean and/or inferior to men.
3. The practical difficulties which menstruation caused women prior to the advent of modern hygiene.

Of these three, only the third is an acceptable reason to give a woman for why she need not come to church or receive communion while menstruating; but, since we live in the 21st Century, why would this be an issue? As for the former two reasons, they are anti-Christian.

Read what St. Gregory Diologos wrote when he found out about this taboo:

jbburnett.com/resources/gregory-grt_menstru.pdf‎

1. There are canons
2. no...there are canons that say that a man cannot receive if he has a nocturnal emission soooo no...

3. no again ...it has to do with the fall...the way women bear children and the reminding us of what man lost with his folly.

Our bodies are not what they would have been for sure they got a point there. BUT we for sure through the incarnation of Christ and the blessing of the womb of Theotokos are freed from this "curse" of Eve.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

The menstruation 'rules' actually apply to men too, I've always been told. It was because you're not supposed to receive if you have any blood flowing from your body. It was thought that the Body and Blood of Christ would likewise flow out of your wound - old misunderstandings about how our bodies worked. I once asked our priest, mostly joking, if I could receive because I had cut my finger on the way to Liturgy.

Most priests take the view of St. Clement of Rome (I think it was him) on this: if a woman wants to abstain while she is menstruating, that's fine and a pious option for her, but she is not to be forced or coerced into it. It's very much like headcovering. I can't find the quote right now, unfortunately.

 

[gzt]

I once asked our priest, mostly joking, if I could receive because I had cut my finger on the way to Liturgy.

You shouldn't in that case! Unless you're sure it's definitely stopped bleeding by then. At least, this is the common teaching, not a joke or a rarity. I'd take this concern more seriously than menstruation - they're separate systems from the usual flow of blood.

 

[truefiction1]

No wonder.

 

[Columba7]

I see the menstruation issue as a classic example of enforcing a rule while forgetting why the rule was applied in the first place. If the reason for a practice has been debunked, so too should be the practice.

 

[Philothei]

I see the menstruation issue as a classic example of enforcing a rule while forgetting why the rule was applied in the first place. If the reason for a practice has been debunked, so too should be the practice.

yeah it seems like a remnant of an old law.... But if we believe Christ did not come to abolish the law then that canon according to traditionalists should hold I think that is what the ones who hold this view would say. I do observe this by the way and I do not find it either discriminatory or chauvinistic. I take it as a way for women to contemplate the Incarnation of Christ and how much the human race should be thankful to the Holy Trinity for saving us all from sin and giving us life in Christ the new Adam.

When the time comes I think these human imperfections and "interpretations" would cease since in the Kingdom to come we will see the truth and indeed there is no reason to worry about things like this one

 

[Philothei]

You shouldn't in that case! Unless you're sure it's definitely stopped bleeding by then. At least, this is the common teaching, not a joke or a rarity. I'd take this concern more seriously than menstruation - they're separate systems from the usual flow of blood.

I agree

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My cat, Mimsy, gave me a couple of scratches so I think I'll abstain from Communion for a week or two...