They've had enough of church

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Thanks for sharing your personal journey. What do you think would need to happen, besides the people who were kind to you and you love and miss them, for you to find rest in that church again?

Have the issues over which you left been resolved? Are these issues for anybody else?

May the Lord bless and encourage you as you pursue his will for your life?

Oz

Well, I'm now healed and delivered, I'm now working, and most of the conflicts I had are now resolved although those were not the reasons I left, but it makes it easier to return.

Your question is a powerful one, which I need to think about carefully. My off the cuff answer is that I'm in a comfortable place, but I know there's more. I'll get back to you.

Thank you very much and God bless!
 
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NannaNae

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"This is one of the blessings of living in a country (Australia) where giving to the church is not tax deductible. So the church can never know how much any one person is giving. It's a blessing because giving is then based on the heart and ability to give. Nobody is discriminated against or favoured, based on their giving or lack of giving.


that is cool

we have never claimed what we give on our taxes.
bible says not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing..
which in ancient speak goes something like don't let your butt wiping hand/ sides know what your covenant hand is doing..

so whenwe learned that ages and ages ago what that means and how it ties into it is what he means by "give to Cesar what is Cesars ( giggle giggle ) and to God what is Gods " ( or what he asks of you ) because like Jesus is God's right hand your right hand is you covenant making/ bond making hand.. and that understand comes down to us to today in that you shook with you right hands for a good reason.. it was your clean side.. it is what was expectable side what you make oaths or deals with... and they presented no one their left hand.

so we have never claimed on our taxes what we give .. and always ask Him what it is we are to give or we have a fall back position.. that I have already described .
and if we make a covenant and stick to it .... it usually does stuff that is just kind of interesting . ohhhhhhh it shakes what can be shaken and the stuff that floats is so sad..

we are just kind of tired of nominal.. luke warm .
 
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Levette64

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I'm new here, but would really like to comment on this.

I've been to many churches over the years, some good, some not so good, some just weird.

I lived in another state for several years up until a few years ago, after moving back here, I began searching for a church. Denomination didn't matter, as long as it was a church that had good Bible based teaching.

I ended up attending a church where several family members of mine attend, but I found that I didn't feel welcomed, week after week, month after month, and no one approached me, no one talked to me.

I enjoyed the services, the worship and the sermons, but I was left feeling alone in a sea of people.

I left there and began attending an AG church, and I experienced the SAME thing. I started to think it was me, I am reserved, so I tried to get involved in the AG church, reaching out for volunteer opportunities, but it seemed like doors kept slamming in my face.

I was about to give up on church altogether.

But I couldn't stop thinking about the first church I attended, and the lack of welcoming. All I could think was, it's great that they are getting new people there, but it is useless if they have no reason to stay.

I emailed the pastor and told him my concerns, and also informed a family member who is heavily involved, but I still attended the AG church for a while after that.

All the while praying that God would lead me.

Now I have nothing against the AG denomination, but one Sunday they had a special preacher, he didn't finish his sermon that morning so they announced they would continue that evening.

I felt moved to go that evening, and it was not for me, let's just say it was too charismatic for me. I felt compelled to stand up and leave in the middle of the service.

I was done.

At least I thought I was.

The next Saturday, we had a family gathering, and I found myself relaying what had happened the Sunday before to a relative, and I heard myself say, I will be back at church tomorrow! Meaning the first church I attended.

I have to say, I believe God used me to make them aware of the lack of welcoming because my experience has been totally different than when I attended before.

I am developing relationships, and am in a small group with some wonderful women.

Sometimes instead of being 'done', we need to figure out what God wants us to do. In my case, I believe I am where God wants me to be, and I truly believe that if I hadn't experienced what I did and pointed it out to the church then I would not be at church at all.

Churches should never be stuck in a place where there is no growth, and a sign of a good church is a willingness to change the things that need to be changed. A church can't do that without people willing to stand up and work towards those changes.

After all, 'we' are the church, the body of Christ, and if one part of the body doesn't work, we have to do what we can to get it to work.

But then, being 'done' sure is a lot easier. But is that what God would want?

Or is it what the enemy would want?

Because he sure doesn't want us to fellowship with other believers.

Matthew 18:20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
 
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OzSpen

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Levette,

Welcome to CF. I'm pleased you have joined us and I trust that you'll be back here many times over.

You have raised some excellent points here and I commend you for talking to the pastor about the unfriendly church. It takes incredible initiative and thoughtfulness about the direction of the church to do this, especially if you might be new to a church.

I really appreciate your statement that 'I believe God used me to make them aware of the lack of welcoming because my experience has been totally different than when I attended before'. I thank God that they listened and did something about what was happening to visitors.

My wife and I have a friend who goes to a very large church not far from where we live. She finds the church very unwelcoming and cold. When she came to our much smaller church with us last Sunday, she found the church to be so warm and welcoming towards her.

I look forward to more or your insightful posts.

In Christ,
Oz



I'm new here, but would really like to comment on this.

I've been to many churches over the years, some good, some not so good, some just weird.

I lived in another state for several years up until a few years ago, after moving back here, I began searching for a church. Denomination didn't matter, as long as it was a church that had good Bible based teaching.

I ended up attending a church where several family members of mine attend, but I found that I didn't feel welcomed, week after week, month after month, and no one approached me, no one talked to me.

I enjoyed the services, the worship and the sermons, but I was left feeling alone in a sea of people.

I left there and began attending an AG church, and I experienced the SAME thing. I started to think it was me, I am reserved, so I tried to get involved in the AG church, reaching out for volunteer opportunities, but it seemed like doors kept slamming in my face.

I was about to give up on church altogether.

But I couldn't stop thinking about the first church I attended, and the lack of welcoming. All I could think was, it's great that they are getting new people there, but it is useless if they have no reason to stay.

I emailed the pastor and told him my concerns, and also informed a family member who is heavily involved, but I still attended the AG church for a while after that.

All the while praying that God would lead me.

Now I have nothing against the AG denomination, but one Sunday they had a special preacher, he didn't finish his sermon that morning so they announced they would continue that evening.

I felt moved to go that evening, and it was not for me, let's just say it was too charismatic for me. I felt compelled to stand up and leave in the middle of the service.

I was done.

At least I thought I was.

The next Saturday, we had a family gathering, and I found myself relaying what had happened the Sunday before to a relative, and I heard myself say, I will be back at church tomorrow! Meaning the first church I attended.

I have to say, I believe God used me to make them aware of the lack of welcoming because my experience has been totally different than when I attended before.

I am developing relationships, and am in a small group with some wonderful women.

Sometimes instead of being 'done', we need to figure out what God wants us to do. In my case, I believe I am where God wants me to be, and I truly believe that if I hadn't experienced what I did and pointed it out to the church then I would not be at church at all.

Churches should never be stuck in a place where there is no growth, and a sign of a good church is a willingness to change the things that need to be changed. A church can't do that without people willing to stand up and work towards those changes.

After all, 'we' are the church, the body of Christ, and if one part of the body doesn't work, we have to do what we can to get it to work.

But then, being 'done' sure is a lot easier. But is that what God would want?

Or is it what the enemy would want?

Because he sure doesn't want us to fellowship with other believers.

Matthew 18:20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
 
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P1LGR1M

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Pilgrim,

Your 2 posts are way too long for me to absorb and respond to. I encourage you to make MUCH shorter posts. I don't know how many others don't have the time to address such lengthy posts.

You asked, I responded.


If this issue doesn't concern your fellowship at all, why have you spent 2 lengthy posts in addressing it?

Since you did not read it, I will try to point out what this following statement means, which sums up the issue addressed in the posts:

Originally Posted by OzSpen

Does this concern you or your church?

It is just a fact of life that fellowships often have a base fellowship and a revolving fellowship. New Churches are started over disputes which could not be reconciled. New denominations started over doctrinal differences.

But this kind of diversity and dispute has always taken place. Paul did not declare doom on the Corinthians, the writer of Hebrews did not give up on his people, but rather...they addressed the error and exhorted them to follow sound doctrine and practice.

Does this issue concern my fellowship? Not at all, unless we factor in basic principles which have existed since Christ began building His Church.


The bottom line is not that it doesn't affect my Church at all, but that this kind of dissension has always been a part of the Church, it is nothing new, and advocacy of this type of defection is contrary to the Body as a whole.

This type of mentality can be seen often on the forums, and usually accompanying those advocating defection is another gospel.

There will be many who will use this type of teaching to justify their defection, and it is just my view, but this will do more harm than good.

God bless.
 
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Levette64

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Levette,

Welcome to CF. I'm pleased you have joined us and I trust that you'll be back here many times over.

You have raised some excellent points here and I commend you for talking to the pastor about the unfriendly church. It takes incredible initiative and thoughtfulness about the direction of the church to do this, especially if you might be new to a church.

I really appreciate your statement that 'I believe God used me to make them aware of the lack of welcoming because my experience has been totally different than when I attended before'. I thank God that they listened and did something about what was happening to visitors.

My wife and I have a friend who goes to a very large church not far from where we live. She finds the church very unwelcoming and cold. When she came to our much smaller church with us last Sunday, she found the church to be so warm and welcoming towards her.

I look forward to more or your insightful posts.

In Christ,
Oz

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure about initiative, all I knew was that I felt like I had to do something, and contacting the Pastor was really quite out of character for me. But I also believe that God sometimes moves us to do things we wouldn't ordinarily do in order to furthur His Kingdom.

The church I go to isn't a large church, far from it, but it is growing. The AG church I attended was really large, so I was surprised at the lack of welcoming. But I guess it doesn't matter how many people go, but the character of the members.

I attended a large Southern Baptist church when I lived in another state and it was very warm and welcoming from the first day I attended. Likewise with a Methodist church I attended years ago. So I was surprised and a bit appalled at the lack of welcoming in my recent attendance at 2 different churches.

My son and his wife are members of an AG church in another State which I attended when I visited them, and it was a totally different experience from the AG church I attended here, so I don't even think denomination has much to do with it.

Also there are many issues which may cause a person to leave a church, I left the Methodist church years ago because the higher ups in the church had a secret vote to get rid of the Pastor at the time. My feelings were that the whole church congregation should have had a say, not just the few who paid the largest tithes. I felt it was sneaky and underhanded. BTW, I would have voted for him to stay because he was a Pastor who spoke the truth and wasn't afraid to step on toes. They ended up with what I call a "feel good preacher" who preached "vanilla" sermons, and I walked away. The whole sordid thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I didn't attend church for a long time.

But I found that not attending was not good for my spiritual well being.

It's not easy in my area to find a good Baptist or even Non-denominational church that teaches the truth of the gospel. This area is predominantly Roman Catholic, and any churches outside of that are few are far between.
 
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OzSpen

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You asked, I responded.

Since you did not read it, I will try to point out what this following statement means, which sums up the issue addressed in the posts:

The bottom line is not that it doesn't affect my Church at all, but that this kind of dissension has always been a part of the Church, it is nothing new, and advocacy of this type of defection is contrary to the Body as a whole.

This type of mentality can be seen often on the forums, and usually accompanying those advocating defection is another gospel.

There will be many who will use this type of teaching to justify their defection, and it is just my view, but this will do more harm than good.

God bless.

Pilgrim,

I did read large sections of your 2 lengthy posts but they were too long to respond to.

I think it's a bit harsh to say that those advocating defection are accompanied by (advocating?) 'another gospel'.
 
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OzSpen

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Thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure about initiative, all I knew was that I felt like I had to do something, and contacting the Pastor was really quite out of character for me. But I also believe that God sometimes moves us to do things we wouldn't ordinarily do in order to furthur His Kingdom.

The church I go to isn't a large church, far from it, but it is growing. The AG church I attended was really large, so I was surprised at the lack of welcoming. But I guess it doesn't matter how many people go, but the character of the members.

I attended a large Southern Baptist church when I lived in another state and it was very warm and welcoming from the first day I attended. Likewise with a Methodist church I attended years ago. So I was surprised and a bit appalled at the lack of welcoming in my recent attendance at 2 different churches.

My son and his wife are members of an AG church in another State which I attended when I visited them, and it was a totally different experience from the AG church I attended here, so I don't even think denomination has much to do with it.

Also there are many issues which may cause a person to leave a church, I left the Methodist church years ago because the higher ups in the church had a secret vote to get rid of the Pastor at the time. My feelings were that the whole church congregation should have had a say, not just the few who paid the largest tithes. I felt it was sneaky and underhanded. BTW, I would have voted for him to stay because he was a Pastor who spoke the truth and wasn't afraid to step on toes. They ended up with what I call a "feel good preacher" who preached "vanilla" sermons, and I walked away. The whole sordid thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I didn't attend church for a long time.

But I found that not attending was not good for my spiritual well being.

It's not easy in my area to find a good Baptist or even Non-denominational church that teaches the truth of the gospel. This area is predominantly Roman Catholic, and any churches outside of that are few are far between.

Lavette,

I can understand many of the dynamics you have described of why people come and go from churches, but a friendly, welcoming church is a great start for new folks.

Thanks for sharing the issues relating to why you left various churches.

I agree that not attending is not helpful for one's spiritual well being. However, there are dynamics that influence such. I'm currently encouraging a retired pastor and his wife into church as they are evangelicals in a very liberal denomination. They would not attend most of the churches in that denomination because they don't believe and teach the gospel. Since they have been in that denomination and style of worship for so long, it is difficult to find a new church that is acceptable. It's a tough slog in trying to get alongside of them to encourage them to be in a worshipping, proclaiming community of believers.

In which part of the USA do you live? When my wife and I lived in your country we were in the states of Washington, Ohio, Indiana and California.

Oz
 
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P1LGR1M

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Pilgrim,

I did read large sections of your 2 lengthy posts but they were too long to respond to.

I think it's a bit harsh to say that those advocating defection are accompanied by (advocating?) 'another gospel'.


Not much point in continuing to comment on what I said when you have not bothered to read it to the point where you understand the context of the statements.

To sum up this point, I will say that I have seen a number of advocates of this type of message...who are also accompanied by another gospel. That is not to say that everyone who becomes discouraged with Church attendance, or the fellowship they are currently part of, is guilty of this. As I said, many of us will, I think, at some point or another get discouraged. Many of us will engage in Church Hopping. But when it comes to advocating that people leave fellowships altogether...I see that as harmful.

It is interesting that the other member recounts leaving a fellowship...because the deacons got rid of the Pastor, and brought in someone they felt could do a better job.

There's listening to the congregation for you. We see both the "leadership" which disagreed with this Pastor's authority, as well as the congregants' disfavor of who was brought in.

It is just my view that Pastors should be men capable of leadership, as well as all who hold positions of authority in a fellowship (Sunday School Teachers). But clearly there is a leadership prescribed in Scripture, and when that authority is corrupted, either by a congregation unwilling to respect that authority, or corrupt leadership itself, then we depart from a Biblical model of Christian Fellowship.

I just have not seen those who advocate such a mentality, those I have spoken with on forums, that is, not be accompanied by a gospel that differs in some way from an orthodox view. It is usually about glorifying the individual, rather than glorifying Christ and edification of the Body. I look at the modern approach to fellowship as flawed, but that will just be the case when more than one person is involved. We are going to have problems, and we are going to disagree with some things we hear from the pulpit sometimes, but the big picture is that people are ministered to in this approach, being saved, and being taught.

I just have a problem with telling people it is okay to go it alone, and while that may not be the message of the "dones" exactly, it will be interpreted, I think, by many that way, and result in more falling away than "improved worship."

God bless.
 
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pilgrim42

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Not much point in continuing to comment on what I said when you have not bothered to read it to the point where you understand the context of the statements.

To sum up this point, I will say that I have seen a number of advocates of this type of message...who are also accompanied by another gospel. That is not to say that everyone who becomes discouraged with Church attendance, or the fellowship they are currently part of, is guilty of this. As I said, many of us will, I think, at some point or another get discouraged. Many of us will engage in Church Hopping. But when it comes to advocating that people leave fellowships altogether...I see that as harmful.

It is interesting that the other member recounts leaving a fellowship...because the deacons got rid of the Pastor, and brought in someone they felt could do a better job.

There's listening to the congregation for you. We see both the "leadership" which disagreed with this Pastor's authority, as well as the congregants' disfavor of who was brought in.

It is just my view that Pastors should be men capable of leadership, as well as all who hold positions of authority in a fellowship (Sunday School Teachers). But clearly there is a leadership prescribed in Scripture, and when that authority is corrupted, either by a congregation unwilling to respect that authority, or corrupt leadership itself, then we depart from a Biblical model of Christian Fellowship.

I just have not seen those who advocate such a mentality, those I have spoken with on forums, that is, not be accompanied by a gospel that differs in some way from an orthodox view. It is usually about glorifying the individual, rather than glorifying Christ and edification of the Body. I look at the modern approach to fellowship as flawed, but that will just be the case when more than one person is involved. We are going to have problems, and we are going to disagree with some things we hear from the pulpit sometimes, but the big picture is that people are ministered to in this approach, being saved, and being taught.

I just have a problem with telling people it is okay to go it alone, and while that may not be the message of the "dones" exactly, it will be interpreted, I think, by many that way, and result in more falling away than "improved worship."

God bless.

Well said. I think it is very important that we be part in the solution and not part of the problem. There are not many churches around, and if we find one and go there, it will no longer be perfect.
Christianity has never been a "go it alone" concept. It has always been a "group" concept. Thank God. In this country we have the freedom to chose what church we want to attend. The government doesn't chose for us.

Ken :bow:
 
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SoulBap6

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The Church and the Church family, is many things to many people, but I find today people have a the idea is one hour and gone. Please don't go over that hour and entertaining the congregation with music and make sure you have Coffee and donuts just in case. You need a pick me up before church.

Watered down sermons not to offend anyone is the order of the day. So the people won't get offended or convicted. Many have left the church and it has been and still is Gods House church is people and people make the church and what it suppose to be is a House of prayer and a place to hear the Gospel preached and where it is to be taught, for Christians to grow and soul to be saved it is not a country club for Saints it is a Hospital for sinners.

I hear this Exodus of the Church but its you that have to make the difference. If you our a member say something be proactive in your church. I preach at a rescue mission out reach from my Church. Believe me I don't get bored when I go soul winning with people from the church knocking on door and inviting them to church.

The church has enough bench warmers and if you don't feel that the church your in is the right place then ask God to show you where you need to be, you get away from God people and pretty soon you will be right back in the world. Christians need Christians you associate with the world soon you will doing what the world does. It is heart breaking to me to see the lost souls I see God needs workers in the field. I am no one without the Lord and I do need the support of my brothers and sisters in Christ.


When I had a Heart attack my Church family was their to pray for me. Help my wife and showed the love of Christ to me. Maybe my church is different than yours but I would pray not I would hope that the Holy spirit would be blessing your life and to feel the love of the church in all members. Nothing is perfect in this world don't give up on church trust in the lord and he will show you the way. May God richly bless you
 
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P1LGR1M

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The Church and the Church family, is many things to many people, but I find today people have a the idea is one hour and gone. Please don't go over that hour and entertaining the congregation with music and make sure you have Coffee and donuts just in case. You need a pick me up before church.

Watered down sermons not to offend anyone is the order of the day. So the people won't get offended or convicted. Many have left the church and it has been and still is Gods House church is people and people make the church and what it suppose to be is a House of prayer and a place to hear the Gospel preached and where it is to be taught, for Christians to grow and soul to be saved it is not a country club for Saints it is a Hospital for sinners.

I hear this Exodus of the Church but its you that have to make the difference. If you our a member say something be proactive in your church. I preach at a rescue mission out reach from my Church. Believe me I don't get bored when I go soul winning with people from the church knocking on door and inviting them to church.

The church has enough bench warmers and if you don't feel that the church your in is the right place then ask God to show you where you need to be, you get away from God people and pretty soon you will be right back in the world. Christians need Christians you associate with the world soon you will doing what the world does. It is heart breaking to me to see the lost souls I see God needs workers in the field. I am no one without the Lord and I do need the support of my brothers and sisters in Christ.


When I had a Heart attack my Church family was their to pray for me. Help my wife and showed the love of Christ to me. Maybe my church is different than yours but I would pray not I would hope that the Holy spirit would be blessing your life and to feel the love of the church in all members. Nothing is perfect in this world don't give up on church trust in the lord and he will show you the way. May God richly bless you

I think we need to understand that every fellowship is different, and in finding a fellowship that is beneficial to us, and where we can be beneficial to those we fellowship with is something that might take a while for some of us. In reality, fellowship is not meant to be the sole source of what is Christian in our lives, but, I think most of us would admit, especially if we have jobs or lives where we are constantly exposed to the world itself, that there is a comfort to be among those where at the least we have a common belief and it is a relief to be among those of like belief.

While we could pick apart a number of issues in any given fellowship, we also have to recognize our own contribution to those issues, lol. If we say the fellowship is unwelcoming or unfriendly...how friendly are we? If we believe our fellowship is in error doctrinally...why do we go there?

But in your example of when you had a heart attack, it seems you were part of a fellowship that had genuine concern for you. I would suggest that in many of the fellowships available today, we will find that same genuine concern.

All fellowships are going to range in varying degrees of maturity in the believers attending, and that is simply a basic principle of the Church. We can't expect everyone to perfectly example Christian conduct and knowledge, because just like ourselves, everybody else there is in a process of growth.

Even if we attend a fellowship, say, are saved in a fellowship which may not be an optimal fellowship, it is not until we grow in Christ where we are better able to make decisions which may impact our lives. And refraining from fellowship has been, at least in my own case, something that has adverse effect in my walk with Christ. I can see a difference between regular fellowship and worship, and having an attitude in which I see no importance in going. First and foremost we should go to worship the Lord, and deal with the social aspects afterward.

As I said before, I view regular worship and fellowship as part of the training we go through. Some will accelerate their growth by active study outside of Church, while some may be content, at least for the time, to remain under the tutelage of the leadership of their fellowship. I think we should also acknowledge that we are not the ones that set the standard for how others walk with Christ, nor should we judge those that we feel do not meet the standard we set. Scripture sets the standard, and if we are part of a fellowship we believe fails in the standard set by God, then we have a responsibility to leave that fellowship. In about twenty years now of attending fellowships, I can say that only one fellowship I left was for a legitimate reason that violated the Word of God, in which discipline of sin was not meted out, but overlooked. The rest of the Church Hopping was primarily due to my own pride, and dealing with issues of pride has been a direct result of resolving not to abandon a fellowship because of issues that didn't change the reason I should place first for having a "home church." Which is to have a place where I can go to worship God. If social interaction results in friendships, great. But knowing that there are simply going to be personality conflicts any time more than one person is involved, perhaps the limited time we spend together in corporate fellowship is not such a bad idea after all.

The saying, "Familiarity breeds contempt" is true in our own homes, and few of us are completely free of becoming complacent in relationships. But being aware of that might help us to cast off what is typical, and seek to attain to love God wants us to have for each other and those in the world who desperately need Christ. It is said, "You are the only Bible some people will ever read," and should our interaction in the world result in someone wanting to know the reason why we may be different, it is a good idea to have somewhere to direct them. A local fellowship is a good place to point them to, where, hopefully, if they visit, they will hear the Word of God and come to saving faith in Christ.

God bless.
 
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Levette64

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Lavette,

I can understand many of the dynamics you have described of why people come and go from churches, but a friendly, welcoming church is a great start for new folks.

Thanks for sharing the issues relating to why you left various churches.

I agree that not attending is not helpful for one's spiritual well being. However, there are dynamics that influence such. I'm currently encouraging a retired pastor and his wife into church as they are evangelicals in a very liberal denomination. They would not attend most of the churches in that denomination because they don't believe and teach the gospel. Since they have been in that denomination and style of worship for so long, it is difficult to find a new church that is acceptable. It's a tough slog in trying to get alongside of them to encourage them to be in a worshipping, proclaiming community of believers.

In which part of the USA do you live? When my wife and I lived in your country we were in the states of Washington, Ohio, Indiana and California.

Oz

To answer your last question, I live in Pennsylvania, and it is currently very cold here.

I would encourage your friends to pray about it, I found myself praying a lot when I was searching for a church home. I also realized that going to church is really not about me, having my needs met is just a secondary benefit, but the main point is to worship a God who loves me. If we do this with a genuine heart, no matter if we are standing in a field or in a building, everything else will fall into place.

That was the lesson God laid on my heart when I was feeling alone in the middle of a church building, surrounded by 200 people. It wasn't about who was there next to me, it wasn't about me, it wasn't about who was or wasn't talking to me, it was to be about a One and Holy God. When I started worshipping authentically without worrying about everything else around me, that's when God lead me to where I belonged.
 
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OzSpen

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Levette,

Very cold for you in PA and very warm for me in SE Qld. We have visited in the Lancaster PA area when we lived in OH (old order Amish country of Ashland OH).

I agree that church is where we can worship God, but it is also a place of teaching. All of life is to be lived to the glory of God so worship is what I do in this office where I'm typing. I support the view that praying about which church to attend is so important.

However Heb 10:25 does have a personal dimension that is needed when we gather together, 'encouraging one another'. This 'one another' ministry does involve me. Heb 10:25, 'not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching' (NIV).

Oz


To answer your last question, I live in Pennsylvania, and it is currently very cold here.

I would encourage your friends to pray about it, I found myself praying a lot when I was searching for a church home. I also realized that going to church is really not about me, having my needs met is just a secondary benefit, but the main point is to worship a God who loves me. If we do this with a genuine heart, no matter if we are standing in a field or in a building, everything else will fall into place.

That was the lesson God laid on my heart when I was feeling alone in the middle of a church building, surrounded by 200 people. It wasn't about who was there next to me, it wasn't about me, it wasn't about who was or wasn't talking to me, it was to be about a One and Holy God. When I started worshipping authentically without worrying about everything else around me, that's when God lead me to where I belonged.
 
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Levette64

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Levette,

Very cold for you in PA and very warm for me in SE Qld. We have visited in the Lancaster PA area when we lived in OH (old order Amish country of Ashland OH).

I agree that church is where we can worship God, but it is also a place of teaching. All of life is to be lived to the glory of God so worship is what I do in this office where I'm typing. I support the view that praying about which church to attend is so important.

However Heb 10:25 does have a personal dimension that is needed when we gather together, 'encouraging one another'. This 'one another' ministry does involve me. Heb 10:25, 'not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching' (NIV).

Oz

I agree, I just know for me personally I needed to realize that first and foremost I was there to worship my Lord. Initially my motives were more selfish than anything, I was looking at it, 'What am I getting out of this?, instead of 'What am I giving to God?' I am still working on this.

I've learned that it's not about what I am feeling, but standing on His Word, the ultimate Truth. My feelings are as changeable as the wind, but God never changes, and His Word never changes.

Ultimately, worship, teaching, learning, and being there for our Brothers and Sisters all comes together. I am truly thankful for my Church family, God has put them in my life for His purposes.

Oh and I only live about an hour from Lancaster and have been there several times.
 
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Slim was a country music legend in Australia. He died in 2003, but up until 2007 he had sold more than 7 million records in Australia alone.

Oh yeah!! I ran through some of Slim's stuff on the 'tube". Definitely my kind of music - does remind me of Cash's style, but a better singer, I think.

Thanks for the "heads up", y'all.

I liked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA8bF5WLCD4
 
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Crossdriven, its absolutely true factions divide the church. But we can see in Scripture its always been a battle. It's Spiritual warfare. There is a lot of blame to go around, but the reality is there is bad theology in the church that is defended as if its God's word and people get offended and take it personally. How many of the church people are just goats? How many are just chaffs that Jesus says to let them be. How many false prophets are truly in the church. Then there is division because God's people are swayed by the world's desires. Who is what is very difficult to determine.

Should I as a Baptist be hand in hand with Catholics, Methodist, Lutherans, Oneness Pentecostal? When it comes down to what determines a Christian, I can't say I can hold hands with all. Can I hold hands with one talking about the nones? I have no idea. There is not a theological stance behind him. He could be a Mormon or follower of Rob Bell for all I know. Maybe I'm offending Ozspen by questioning Thom's doctrinal belief, but the reality I I have no idea who he is and I think it is my responsibility as a Christian to at least know who is making such claims before I consider his theology worth it. Does that make me divisive? I guess it could. Our maybe "What theology does Thom hold to" is a fair question and all it requires is, "god question. It's ...... and is why he attends a ...... And this should demonstrate at least a belief in the Trinity and he believes inerrancy of Scripture. No doubt it doesn't necessarily mean I have to agree with his ideas. But it gives a base point which I have none right now.
Oh, I absolutely agree. You shouldn't listen to anyone just because they claim they are a Christian. You need to test people by their fruit, as we are commanded.

Just remember that not all disagreements are worth causing division over. There is a difference between heresy and a difference of opinion. If they will not accept the Gospel of our Lord, then we know their words are not to be trusted.

On the other hand, if our disagreement is over whether Baptism ought to be done as a baby with sprinkled water or through full immersion at the time of salvation, we can put our doctrinal dispute behind us. We may disagree, but we can still work together.

But my point was more that we close our ranks to outsiders, either intentionally of unintentionally.
 
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Oh, I absolutely agree. You shouldn't listen to anyone just because they claim they are a Christian. You need to test people by their fruit, as we are commanded.

Just remember that not all disagreements are worth causing division over. There is a difference between heresy and a difference of opinion. If they will not accept the Gospel of our Lord, then we know their words are not to be trusted.

On the other hand, if our disagreement is over whether Baptism ought to be done as a baby with sprinkled water or through full immersion at the time of salvation, we can put our doctrinal dispute behind us. We may disagree, but we can still work together.

But my point was more that we close our ranks to outsiders, either intentionally of unintentionally.

Cross,

The topic is, 'They've had enough of church'. If the disagreement is over whether one should attend a church gathering or not to be a Christian, is that worth having a disagreement and division about?

Oz
 
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Cross,

The topic is, 'They've had enough of church'. If the disagreement is over whether one should attend a church gathering or not to be a Christian, is that worth having a disagreement and division about?

Oz

Depends. Are we speaking of the Church as the local church, or universal church? If you are a Christian, you are undoubtedly part of the Church. If you aren't, then you have no claim to being part of the Church.

But if we're talking about being a local church, we can't honestly say not attending cuts you off from Christ. That path ends with madness. Are shut ins cut off from Christ because they don't attend meetings at a local church?
 
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