They won't build it! Hardhats vow not to work on controversial mosque

[LightHorseman]

I never said those people were. I even said they have the law on their side.

You just said they should be kicked out of the US because they are a threat. If that isn't claiming they're of the sword wielding variety, why do you want to kick them out?

 

[armyman_83]

You just said they should be kicked out of the US because they are a threat. If that isn't claiming they're of the sword wielding variety, why do you want to kick them out?

Forgive me--I thought you were talking about those non-muslims who were advocating the building of the "community center". I do apologize.

As to those Muslims, I believe, through legal channels--they should be removed from this country--yes.

 

[LightHorseman]

You are free to be disgusted. Just as I am free to post my own opinions and views here, even if I am an active duty service member. If I were to stand in a picket with a t-shirt that said "U.S. Infantry" on it, do you think that I would be a legitimate state sponsered speaker? And your Recon? Just as anyone who sees my signature won't say--"wow he is totally a Federal Agent acting in accordance with some Federal Government mandate."

Thats not what I'm saying. But just for funzies, try it. Wear something with US ARMY printed on it next time you go to piquet a mosque or a homosexual funeral or a women's literacy group or whatever it is you do on your days off. Wait and see how long it takes your OC to come and have words with you about it.

 

[LightHorseman]

As to those Muslims, I believe, through legal channels--they should be removed from this country--yes.

What's "threatening" or "sword wielding" about them?

Factual specifics please.

 

[armyman_83]

Thats not what I'm saying. But just for funzies, try it. Wear something with US ARMY printed on it next time you go to piquet a mosque or a homosexual funeral or a women's literacy group or whatever it is you do on your days off. Wait and see how long it takes your OC to come and have words with you about it.

And words could be all they could say. Because it would be well within my rights to picket a blind-homosexual-elderly-animal-shelter if I wanted to. So long as I was not in Uniform and followed the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

 

[LightHorseman]

And words could be all they could say. Because it would be well within my rights to picket a blind-homosexual-elderly-animal-shelter if I wanted to. So long as I was not in Uniform and followed the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Nothing in the UCMJ about conduct bringing the military into disrepute? Nothing about promoting inequitable treatment or discrimination of fellow members? If they can can homosexuals and adulterers for what they do out of uniform, I don't know why you think you'd be immune.

 

[armyman_83]

What's "threatening" or "sword wielding" about them?

Factual specifics please.

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 9:5)

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). " (Surah 9:123)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united in Islam, so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them at the same." --Ibn Khaldun

"'The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
--Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Bk. 2, No. 35


​

 

[LightHorseman]

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 9:5)

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). " (Surah 9:123)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united in Islam, so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them at the same." --Ibn Khaldun

"'The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
--Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Bk. 2, No. 35


​

What's your point? I can quote you passages from the Bible where God commands his followers to slaughter entire communities and to sacrifice children to him. Now, you and I both know about the subtleties of things like the new covenant and such, that render such passages irrelevent to Christians, and we understand that no, we aren't actually meant to stone rape victims to death.

You wanna tell me you know the Koran and its meaning and message well enough that you can unequivocally say that those suras are not similar? Because the moderate Muslims (you know, the people who study the whole thing, rather than cherry pick it looking for excuses to rage) say that it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Think about it for 2 seconds... if some Muslim somewhere were quoting, say, 1 Samuel 15:3, or Judges 11:30-40, in an effort to convince other Muslims of how evil and bloodthirsty the Christian Bible is, you'd be incensed, right? Well do unto others as you would have them do unto you, dude.

 

[armyman_83]

Nothing in the UCMJ about conduct bringing the military into disrepute? Nothing about promoting inequitable treatment or discrimination of fellow members? If they can can homosexuals and adulterers for what they do out of uniform, I don't know why you think you'd be immune.

Adultry and Homosexuality are expressly prohibited by the UCMJ--Freedom of speech and the ability to demonstrate is not.

 

[armyman_83]

What's your point? I can quote you passages from the Bible where God commands his followers to slaughter entire communities and to sacrifice children to him. Now, you and I both know about the subtleties of things like the new covenant and such, that render such passages irrelevent to Christians, and we understand that no, we aren't actually meant to stone rape victims to death.

You wanna tell me you know the Koran and its meaning and message well enough that you can unequivocally say that those suras are not similar? Because the moderate Muslims (you know, the people who study the whole thing, rather than cherry pick it looking for excuses to rage) say that it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Think about it for 2 seconds... if some Muslim somewhere were quoting, say, 1 Samuel 15:3, or Judges 11:30-40, in an effort to convince other Muslims of how evil and bloodthirsty the Christian Bible is, you'd be incensed, right? Well do unto others as you would have them do unto you, dude.

The people that are commanded to be destoryed generally broke the law--wereas--with Islam, it is merely a matter of taking over non-muslims. Since the rise of Mohamet, Islam has been spreading itself by the sword. I am not saying that Christendom hasn't done the same--only that Islam is wrong. Do you, as a Christian, believe that Islam is a way to eternal life?

 

[Ayersy]

The people that are commanded to be destoryed generally broke the law--wereas--with Islam, it is merely a matter of taking over non-muslims. Since the rise of Mohamet, Islam has been spreading itself by the sword. I am not saying that Christendom hasn't done the same--only that Islam is wrong. Do you, as a Christian, believe that Islam is a way to eternal life?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica](Deuteronomy 13: 5)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;"[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Deuteronomy 13: 6)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Deuteronomy 13:15)[/FONT]

Just sayin', your book has the same junk in it.

 

[wanderingone]

I wonder why there hasn't been more articles on why Churches aren't allowed in the ENTIRE country of Saudi Arabia......

"Let there be a Mosque in America when there are Churches in Mecca."

Why would you want America to mimic the government of Saudi?

 

[wanderingone]

WHY? why when theres so many other places they could build their mosque do they they choose the sight of the twin towers.

You do understand there is more than one mosque in NYC? That like churches there are multiple congregations, and like a lot of churches they are meeting in various temporary places like storefronts until they can raise enough money for larger facilities, why should areas be off limits in a city where land is so limited and valuable?

Personally I see no reason for the issue of the trade center to have anything to do with the development of other tracts of land. I think it just as tacky to defend the choice with silly emotional drivel about how the mosque can have an interfaith community center as it is to protest the building of the mosque with silly emotional drivel about a piece of land being sacred because people died there.

 

[wanderingone]

hey folks, there is a simple solution to this.

if the muslims so badly want a mosque there, then let THEM build it!

So you want to limit employment to Muslim construction workers? Seriously? Do you think that it would be that difficult to find Muslim companies and workers to build the place? Let all the "Americans" refuse to build and see how fast the work visas are issued for people to come in and do the jobs they refuse to do.

 

[seashale76]

So you want to limit employment to Muslim construction workers? Seriously? Do you think that it would be that difficult to find Muslim companies and workers to build the place? Let all the "Americans" refuse to build and see how fast the work visas are issued for people to come in and do the jobs they refuse to do.

I see your point. Just like the Muslim cabbies in the US want to refuse picking up those who have alcohol and feel justified in doing so, it's the same situation when non-Muslim construction workers with similar convictions feel justified in refusing to build things. They all need to get new jobs if their convictions get in the way.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Why would you want America to mimic the government of Saudi?

Obviously the Saudis are his role model... we should emulate them in many things.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I just find it strange that one religious building being built is having so much hooping and hollering over it, when the rights of all Non-Muslims are being infringed in a whole country.

What rights would those be? Saudi Arabia doesn't have the same First Amendment that the US does.

I never said that America invented Freedom or Democracy, nor have I proposed to remove Muslims' rights-- from the bill of rights (though I would not be opposed to such an idea).

Why stop there? why not just round them all up and put them in camps?

Muslims want to have tons of religious freedom, but in many Islamic countries there exists little freedom for Non-Muslims.

So you want to be more like them... good luck with that.

You see, the problem with claiming to be better than your enemies is that you actually have to be better than your enemies... and nobody said that would be easy.

What I am saying is--don't decry Americans for getting heated over a Mosque being built--when ALL NON-Muslims cannot build their places of worship in Saudi Arabia--by law!

So Saudi Arabia is your new role model... I guess you're right; religious freedom is for chumps.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I respect Jihadists more than "moderate Muslims"--at least Jihadists aren't tip toeing around the issues.

"Moderate" Muslims do not tip toe around issues. I have confronted the evil acts comitted under the guise of Islam and have defended my faith when others have tried to bash it(for lack of a better phrase).

Jihad means struggle, and I can't see how you respect the Taliban or Al Qaeda with thier ability to intentionally kill civilians to make a statement. Then of course, military leaders have intentionally blown up civilian targets to make a statement. So I guess I can see your viewpoint; the deaths of civilians are justified so long as your statement is understood by the rest. Just like they're willing to restrict freedom of religion against non-Muslims(something not permitted in Islam), you are willing to do the same. Well, you're downright for no Muslim to live in the United States.

 

[kiwimac]

The U.S. should demand that religious equality be showed to Christians in Saudi Arabia (and all parts of the world). And we should be willing to back up such demands with physical force.

Honestly, you can't have total religious freedom. So while we are drawing lines in the sand it doesn't seem too illogical to go ahead and outlaw a faith that is rather dangerous to those who do not adhear to the said faith. Should we allow the people to serve Kali? Lets just bring back the Thuggee and why not Baal worship? Why not let people let "their children pass through the fire"--its religious freedom after all!

As to the "Community Center", they are--by law allowed to build where they please. So long as the funding is not tax payer money, they have the right to build it, even if it is in very poor taste. Personally I would like to see the laws changed to forbid Muslims from entering America, or living therein.

When Islamic nations are free for non-muslims to visit/live with equal rights--then maybe we can start a two-way street.

Why support a faith that does not show the same support for our citizens?

I've news for you. There are already Kali worshippers in the US. Baal worship is also allowed under the First Amendment. I am fascinated to find that your 'solution' to those darn Muslims is to turn the US into a mirror image of Saudi Arabia.

 

[kiwimac]

What makes us better is that Islam is not a part of our daily lives, and that its adhearants are a small part of the population.



Yes--I dislike Islam and believe it to be a threat.



We do have much more religious freedom compared to most of the world, but there are always limits. Remember it was Christians who founded America, so naturally there is a bit more inclination toward the Judeo-Christian faith system.



I just feel that we should stop the followers of Mohamet from entering our country, and kick out those who do adhear to Islam. Islam is a threat, in my view. If Islamic countries want to ban Christianity--that is their right as a nation, just as it is America's right to ban Islam. Why blur lines? We know where each other stand, each one on the other side of the line--with drawn swords.

If you are talking about the Founding Fathers, they were mostly Deist and driven by Enlightenment humanism. If you're talking about the small colonies of Christian groups who arrived on US shores. Almost the first thing they did was to pass laws attacking other groups of Christians.