There is NO rapture!!!

[LovedofHim]

Who is "they"?

I don't know what "replacement theology" is. I do know what the 180 year old "dispensational theology" is that came from Margaret McDonald of Glasgow Scotland is though. It attempts to replace the Israel Church Newly Married Bride of Christ with a doctrine of "futurism" saying that the prophecies were NOT fulfilled. Those are doctrines of devils. The doctrines of "futurism".

Name just one unfulfilled O.T. prophecy lovedofhim. I'll show you, or any number of other folks can show you in scripture where it is fulfilled in the New Testament in Christ and His New Jerusalem Wife who has been producing children of God for 2000 years now.

Nothing of what I share has anything to do with "what I like". Although I do Love Jesus and His Word. I am a true Berean in proving all things and holding fast that which is good and rebuking the false doctrines introduced by the wolves in sheep clothing.

So yes, the OP is 100% correct here.
Praise Jesus!

Ok, let's start here. When was this fulfilled:

Isaiah 17

1The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Wow, you've really created a whole new gospel for yourself, haven't you? According to the gospel of "dcyates", "heaven is earth". But the problem of that, you see, is your fleshly mind. You are trying to rationalize the spiritual into a box that you can understand.

You are uncomfortable with the idea that there is a spiritual place called heaven where people can actually go that is not earth.

And yes, the earth is God's footstool and God and mankind will once again dwell in harmony together.

The church's citizenship is in heaven. And the "place prepared" for us in the "Father's House" is a city prepared for us there called the New Jerusalem on Mt. Zion above.

Phl 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

So God lives in a city somewhere up there in the universe?

You're free to believe that, but don't pretend as though this is universal Christian teaching. It's not.

Scripture is clear though, our future hope is in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting in a restored and renewed creation. John's vision of the New Jerusalem isn't about some city floating down from outer space, but about the fusion of the heavenly and the earthly, the restoration of all things. I come from the position that the New Jerusalem is symbolic of the Church arrayed in the glory and splendor of God, the People of God in the full presence of God.

Again, if you want to believe there's a city somewhere up there past the Oort Cloud, that's yours to believe. But it isn't what Scripture teaches, it's not what the Church has historically taught, and it's not a dogmatic position of the Christian faithful.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcyates]

Well, since the rapture will happen well before the second coming your point is .............pointless.

Didn't you read the title of this thread? There is no rapture.

 

[dcyates]

The truth is what dcyateshadescribed is the post trib rapture.

There is NO rapture. No pre-, mid-, or post-trib. None.

 

[LovedofHim]

So God lives in a city somewhere up there in the universe?

You're free to believe that, but don't pretend as though this is universal Christian teaching. It's not.

LOL! Is the BIBLE a "universal Christian teaching", cryptolutheran?


Hebrews 12: 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Isa 66:1This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?

Scripture is clear though, our future hope is in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting in a restored and renewed creation. John's vision of the New Jerusalem isn't about some city floating down from outer space, but about the fusion of the heavenly and the earthly, the restoration of all things. I come from the position that the New Jerusalem is symbolic of the Church arrayed in the glory and splendor of God, the People of God in the full presence of God.

Again, if you want to believe there's a city somewhere up there past the Oort Cloud, that's yours to believe. But it isn't what Scripture teaches, it's not what the Church has historically taught, and it's not a dogmatic position of the Christian faithful.

-CryptoLutheran

LOL! See the above verses about the city of the Living God in heaven, where the throne of God is.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

LOL! Is the BIBLE a "universal Christian teaching", cryptolutheran?


Hebrews 12: 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Isa 66:1This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?



LOL! See the above verses about the city of the Living God in heaven, where the throne of God is.

So then, yes, you do believe that there is a city in outer space where God is?

Because, you know, a studious reader of Scripture might notice how the author of Hebrews is contrasting the assembly of Israelites gathered at Mt. Sinai with the Old Covenant and the assembly of the Church around a spiritual and heavenly Mt. Zion with a new Moses--Christ--and the New Covenant. You know, that theme throughout the Epistle to the Hebrews where the author continually compares and contrasts the old things with the new because part of the author's intent is to keep the Christian faithful from lapsing away from Christianity back to Judaism due to persecution.

Also it's הַשָּׁמַיִם, ha-shamayim "the heavens"; rather than so much "Heaven" in Isaiah 66. The stuff up there, the sky, the sun and moon and stars all that "stuff" in the heavens, that's God's throne, it's poetic to describe the immeasurable greatness of God. He's higher than the highest heavens, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcyates]

This is a very good example of spiritualizing everything written in the bible, This is really bad Hermeneutics, If you interpret the bible this way, were do you start or end this spiritualizing. Is the story of Jesus real or is it to all spiritual allegory, I've tried to debate spiritualizers, and found you can't! because none of the written word of God is as what it says, they always spiritualize reality away, Its a really strange belief system! and talk about confusing!

"Spiritualizing"?!? If anything, I'm DE-spiritualizing an over-spiritualized reading of the biblical text. My contention is that instead of us spending eternity as disembodied spirits, our physical bodies will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible, and we'll spend eternity here on a renewed earth with God dwelling in our midst.

 

[LovedofHim]

So then, yes, you do believe that there is a city in outer space where God is?

Because, you know, a studious reader of Scripture might notice how the author of Hebrews is contrasting the assembly of Israelites gathered at Mt. Sinai with the Old Covenant and the assembly of the Church around a spiritual and heavenly Mt. Zion with a new Moses--Christ--and the New Covenant. You know, that theme throughout the Epistle to the Hebrews where the author continually compares and contrasts the old things with the new because part of the author's intent is to keep the Christian faithful from lapsing away from Christianity back to Judaism due to persecution.

Also it's הַשָּׁמַיִם, ha-shamayim "the heavens"; rather than so much "Heaven" in Isaiah 66. The stuff up there, the sky, the sun and moon and stars all that "stuff" in the heavens, that's God's throne, it's poetic to describe the immeasurable greatness of God. He's higher than the highest heavens, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

You'll see.

I find it redundant and a little bit absurd that I should have to try to convince a fellow Christian that there is a heaven, that God prepared a place there for us there called the New Jerusalem.

 

[dcyates]

OThis scripture shows us that our mortal bodies will be changed into immortal bodies in a twinkle of and eye whether we are dead or alive when Jesus returns. This is what the rapture/resurrection is about. It is not about being delivered from the Tribulation, but to receive our immortal bodes.

Aside from the 'rapture' part, we agree completely.

I actualy agree with most of what you have said here. This passage is referring to the resurrection more so than the rapture the rapture is a side note. Paul as you said is comforting the Thessalonias in the fact that their dead will return with Christ from Heaven, but he does add as a side note that we who are alive and remain until Christ return will also be caught up, this is what is referred to as the rapture. Your idea that posttribbers believe we go to Heaven at the posttrib rapture is a false assumption. We agree with what you have stated. when Jesus returns we meet Him in the clouds and ''escort'' Him back to Earth. I think what you have a problem with is the idea of a pretrib rapture. The fact is that as Christ is returning we will be changed into immortal bodies, the dead will be raised, and the living saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is the rapture

I'm glad you acknowledge that we agree on much more than we disagree. (That lends itself far more to a civil correspondence.) But something that I haven't mentioned yet with regard to this text is that the reference to 'clouds' is again not meant to be understood in a wooden literal sense -- that is, as those fluffy-looking, gathering of precipitation. Rather wh[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]en we look at this text again, and bear in mind the larger narrative of the Bible as a whole, we find the fingerprints of Israel's exodus experience, which looms so large throughout Scripture. Here in 1 Thessalonians, Paul describes the awaited parousia of Christ:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]For we declare this to you by the Lord’s own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with a call from an archangel, and with God’s shofar; and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who remain will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord" [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](1 Thess 4.15-17). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]God's descent from heaven, the cry of command, the shofar, the angel's call, the people's approach, and the clouds -- all strongly recall Israel's theophanic experience with YHWH at Mount Sinai in Exodus 19.9-20. When we read the two texts together, the correspondences are really quite undeniable.[/FONT]

 

[dcyates]

Wow, you've really created a whole new gospel for yourself, haven't you?

What?!? A "whole new gospel"?!? Where the heck do you get that from anything I've posted?!?

According to the gospel of "dcyates", "heaven is earth".

No, according to the witness of Scripture, earth will be heaven, just as it was always meant to be (see Gen 1&2, and 3.8).

But the problem of that, you see, is your fleshly mind. You are trying to rationalize the spiritual into a box that you can understand.

You are uncomfortable with the idea that there is a spiritual place called heaven where people can actually go that is not earth.

I'm not at all uncomfortable with the idea of a spiritual 'place' called heaven where people can go after death. What I'm more concerned about -- at least for the purposes of this discussion -- is our ultimate destination after we're all physically resurrected.

And yes, the earth is God's footstool and God and mankind will once again dwell in harmony together.

"'Heaven is my throne', says YHWH, 'and the earth is my footstool'." (Isaiah 66.1) refers to all of creation constituting God's temple/palace/home. But because he wishes to dwell with his people, he also allowed his Sh'khinah (i.e. his Divine Presence) to reside in the Most Holy Place (qodesh haqqodashim) in the Tabernacle/Temple.

The church's citizenship is in heaven. And the "place prepared" for us in the "Father's House" is a city prepared for us there called the New Jerusalem on Mt. Zion above.

Phl 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

If I understand what you intend by this reference to Philippians 3.20, even that doesn't say what it's often thought to mean. Virtually every time I hear someone bring up this text they interpret as saying something along the lines of:
"Paul is saying here that we are citizens of heaven and therefore our existence here on Earth is not where we really belong. This is not our true home and "we're justa passin' through" and all that sort of thing. And since heaven is where we really belong, then when our time comes, that's just fine because, when it all comes down to it, we really can't wait to leave here and go up to heaven where we truly belong anyway."
But that's decidedly NOT what Paul is saying here at all. Citizenship simply didn't work that way in the ancient world. Not all the people who resided within the borders of the Roman Empire were citizens; that was a special status for only a relative few. Paul is drawing on the fact that the population of Philippi was largely made up of ex-army veterans. After Roman legionnaires had served their time in the army, the practice was that each soldier was granted the status of a citizen and given a plot of land—in this case, in Philippi in northern Greece. As such, the Philippians were known for being fiercely proud of their status as citizens of Rome.
But notice that! They were not citizens of Philippi. They were not even citizens of the Roman Empire. Rather, they were citizens of the city of Rome! Being citizens of the city of Rome did not mean that Philippi was not their true home, that there would come a time when they would leave there and go live in the city of Rome for the rest of their lives. Instead, for these Philippians being a citizen of Rome meant that they agreed that they would represent all that Rome was and all that Rome meant in that place where they lived. They were, in effect, colonists who were extending Roman values, Roman traditions, and the Roman way of life to that place in northern Greece. Part of that agreement was that, if they were faithful representatives, if they were ever attacked by some enemy, the emperor would send his army to deliver them (i.e. save them).
This is the imagery Paul is employing here. He's telling his audience that since they are in Christ and therefore Christians, they are members of God's covenant community. Thus they are citizens of heaven, the city of God, and as such they are to represent heavenly values and are to extend the godly way of life to that place where they're living. Moreover, it is from God that we await our "Deliverer, the Lord Jesus Christ."
We, too, are citizens of heaven and as such are to represent all that that means here where we live. This passage has nothing to do with going to heaven after we die.

Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Yeah, a city which, Revelation 21 tells us, will descend from heaven to earth.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

You'll see.

I find it redundant and a little bit absurd that I should have to try to convince a fellow Christian that there is a heaven, that God prepared a place there for us there called the New Jerusalem.

I believe in heaven, I just don't believe it's a physical location. Nor do I make many assumptions about what Scripture says rather little over. I'm content that where Christ is, I shall be also and that one day God will make all things new.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcyates]

The word "ano" denotes the heavenly realm, which is here, though constituting a different space and time separate from our own.

The veil separates the fallen world from heaven, Gods throne room. In ancient Judaism it was believed that the sacredness of the holy of holies came from the fact that the aforementioned veil was thin, and the space and time God occupies was nearly present in our own.

When Christ returns and the dead are resurrected, Gods space and time will merge with ours, forming the New Creation.


Im thankful for being delivered as well!

A wholehearted 'AMEN', as well.

 

[zeke37]

Unscriptural terms will always lead astray...

Each of us in our own time, at the end of our lives of 'tribulation', are gathered unto Christ. (tribulation is not a futuristic calendar singular event)

yes, i agree...

Also, the word "Return" does not occur in the New Testament but a handful of times, Never does it refer to a "future" event.
The one place it occurs, is in Acts 15 where it is explicitly stating that God returned as Promised and fulfilled Amos 9.

the point is obvious that He returns..it is taught over and over again...

since you mentioned Acts...

Acts1:9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Col3:4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

1Cor15:35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:




1Thes4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Zec14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

ahhh...there's too many!

Christ has Come INTO His believers and established the Kingdom of God in the 'earth' of our 'earthen' bodies. The majority of the world doesn't see it of course.

ya ok...
but there is going to be a gigantic manifestation of that,
at the end of the age
and it will include a very real physical end time scenario

1 Cor 15 simply describes our resurrection in store for us. Many have already left this world and come forth as described in 1 John 3:2.

1Cor15 also teaches of the time when all of us who are alive at the time of His Coming,
will be changed to be like the returning dead...
the dead come with Him....here....

Mark 13 simply covers the happenings in AD 70 as well as describing the way by which God preaches the gospel through us, His messengers, in bringing Christ into us, the "gathering". This has been going on for 2000 years now.

The religion of "futurism"... I thank God to have been delivered out of that

and yet...

Luk21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

you think all things are fulfilled? really?

 

[LovedofHim]

I believe in heaven, I just don't believe it's a physical location. Nor do I make many assumptions about what Scripture says rather little over. I'm content that where Christ is, I shall be also and that one day God will make all things new.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus is dwelling in heaven in a glorified body. Moses and Elijah are there in body. It is a REAL location. The word "physical" denotes earthly/touchable.

 

[Gnarwhal]

It's real, but it's not somewhere else. It's merely occupying a different space/time from our own here on Earth.

 

[LovedofHim]

It's real, but it's not somewhere else. It's merely occupying a different space/time from our own here on Earth.

Well, the interdimensional theory is an interesting one but unprovable, therefore only speculation.

It is not occupying a different space/time from our own. God sees all, knows all, in real time.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Well, the interdimensional theory is an interesting one but unprovable, therefore only speculation.

It is not occupying a different space/time from our own. God sees all, knows all, in real time.

Of course but He's not physically present in our midst yet. He will be when the new heaven and new earth are brought together in the new creation.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Jesus is dwelling in heaven in a glorified body. Moses and Elijah are there in body. It is a REAL location. The word "physical" denotes earthly/touchable.

I agree that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven in a glorified and physical body. What I don't believe is that heaven is a location.

Where is Christ? He is with His Father. Where is the Father? Everywhere.

I'm content with that mystery.

Turning heaven into an outer space location with XYZ coordinates is science fiction, not theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LovedofHim]

I agree that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven in a glorified and physical body. What I don't believe is that heaven is a location.

Where is Christ? He is with His Father. Where is the Father? Everywhere.

I'm content with that mystery.

Turning heaven into an outer space location with XYZ coordinates is science fiction, not theology.

-CryptoLutheran

I, personally, don't believe in an outer space location. I believe heaven is all around us but we can't see it. Eden was not destroyed. The Tree of Life is still in God's garden. But the way to Eden was barred.

I don't think that means I'm talking about another dimension but rather that our eyes are covered - we lost the ability to "see" in the Fall.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I don't think that means I'm talking about another dimension but rather that our eyes are covered - we lost the ability to "see" in the Fall.

Well in essence God established a veil separating heaven and earth. A veil that we can't see... So... You're sort of right. When Christ returns and the dead are resurrected, the restored, renewed heaven and earth will be married together as the New Creation, the veil will be pulled back.