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There is NO rapture!!!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by dcyates, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    There is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
     
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  2. Darth Bagel

    Darth Bagel ๏_๏

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    Amen!
     
  3. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    And what do you make of 1st Thess 4:15-17????????


    The main two foundational scriptures used by rapture believers of any stance pre,mid or post are 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17.
    1st Corinthians 15:51-53
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
    Here we see the concept of the rapture in scripture. When the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living caught up, both to receive their new immortal, heavenly bodies.
     
  4. mbassadoor

    mbassadoor my race is almost finished

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    GREAT POST.
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member

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    It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. All theories as to its timing are based on interpretation of the meanings of various scriptures.

    But anyone who denies that there will be a rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

    As the explicitly stated scriptures for this event have already been posted in this thread, I will not repeat them.
     
  6. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    Thanks for your response, 4runner.

    Where is there a 'rapture' even hinted at in this passage?!?
    This is referring to our transfiguration from corruptible bodies into incorruptible and the general resurrection of the dead.

    I'm sorry, 4runner, but I have to disagree with your assessment of this text. This doesn't support the concept of the rapture as it is commonly understood. Too often this is seen as describing the Christian's journey to heaven with Christ. However, the Greek word for 'meet' (apantesis), in v. 17 above, bore very distinct connotations in the ancient Greco-Roman world. It designated an event where either the emperor or some other dignitary was making an official visit to a given town or city, the citizens of that city, or a delegation of citizens, would expressly go out from the city to meet the emperor or dignitary and then escort them the rest of the way into their city. What is therefore being discussed here is not a 'rapture' where Christians are whisked off to heaven, but rather where Paul intended to comfort his audience by assuring them that they and their now-dead loved ones have indeed placed their lives in the correct hands; that is, that Jesus is Lord, not Caesar.
     
  7. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    With all due respect, Biblewriter, all those "explicitly stated scriptures" are all derived from that one text that 4runner cited above: 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17. And when interpreted properly, the rapture doesn't appear there either.
     
  8. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    while i do not like the word rapture, as i believe it is misleading,
    there certainly is a gathering to Christ, at the end of the tribulation events

    it is detailed in many scriptures, including 1Thes4:13-forward...

    but Paul even clarified the message of what happens at the Lord's return in 1Thes4,
    when he wrote 2Thes2 and further explained what had to happen first...

    1Cor15 and Mat24/Mar13 cover the same gathering to Christ

    but the Lord is Coming here....those faithful believers alive at His Coming, shall be gathered to Him....here.
     
  9. Watchman_2

    Watchman_2 New Member

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    There is an end to this flesh dispensation of time as detailed in 1 Cor. 15:51-53. However, there is no 'rapture' -- meaning a separate/distinct taking of the church. The conversion taking place when Christ returns will affect everyone, including the 'church'.
     
  10. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    Yes, right, zeke. The word 'rapture' is the Latin form of the Greek term harpagmos, which has been translated into English as "caught up."
    As I've already noted, in 1 Thess 4.13-18, Paul is writing of both the 'raising to life' of the dead in Christ and of what has been all too commonly thought of as 'the rapture'. But the most pertinent phrase, hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton, in verse 16, definitely has to do with the dead in Christ being raised to new life. After all, directly translated it says: "the dead in Christ will rise first." It's hard to get any more clear than that. However, in verse 17, where Paul mentions how those who are in Christ and alive at his coming, "together with them (the previously dead that Christ will bring with him) will be caught up (harpazein; or 'snatched', since the nuance it carries is of a rather violent grasping) in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air," while the verb harpazein is often used in conjunction with the idea of death in ancient literature (Lucian paints the picture of a bereaved father utilizing conventional language as he cries out to his dead son: "Dearest child, you are gone from me, dead, snatched away [harpazein] before your time, leaving me alone and wretched" [Funerals 13]), it appears that the Jewish apocalyptic writers of the period used this term to refer to those people who will still be alive at the coming of the Day of the Lord. For example, in 4 Ezra we find, "It will be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you will be saved and will see my salvation and the end of my world. And they will see the men who were snatched up (harpazein), who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants will be changed and converted to a different spirit" (6.25-26), as well as, "Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard; for you will be snatched up (harpazein) from among men, and henceforth you will live with my son and with those like you, until the times are ended" (14.8-9). Nevertheless, we should not be thinking of this in terms of believers literally rising off the ground and floating up to see Jesus descending till we all meet somewhere at cloud level. Paul is employing symbolic imagery where we do damage to the text if we take it too literally. For instance (and again, as I've already noted), the Greek word translated as "a meeting" in the Thessalonian passage, apantesis, bore the technical meaning that relatied to the visits of the emperor or other dignitaries to a given city, where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose, to ceremonially escort their honoured guest the rest of the way into their city. Thus, Paul is here pointing to how Christ is the true king/emperor whose return should be officially recognized by us with no less importance and pomp than would be if an earthly emperor were arriving. Except in this case, rather than merely an imperial visit, Paul informs us that Christ's return will be permanent, for kai houtos pantote syn kurio esometha, "and so (in this manner) we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4.17c).
     
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  11. LovedofHim

    LovedofHim New Member

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    Psalm 50


    1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
    2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
    3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
    4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
    5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

    God is in heaven. He calls FROM above and says, "gather my saints together UNTO ME".

    Gee, what, oh what, could that possibly be saying?


    John 14


    1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2In my Father's house (WHERE?) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go (WHERE?) to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Jesus ascended into heaven, did he not? He said he was GOING there to prepare a place for us. He said he'd come again and receive us to Him.


    And just where, oh where, do you think the church, who has washed in the blood of the Lamb, is in this passage as it stands before the throne of God and the Lamb, with the angels and the four beasts?

    Revelation 7:

    9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    And look at this one. In this passage, the church, who has overcome by the blood of the Lamb, is said to be DWELLING IN HEAVEN! Gee, when do we get there?


    10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    You want more? I've got more.
     
  12. Darth Bagel

    Darth Bagel ๏_๏

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    Thanks for the edifying post!
     
  13. Super Kal

    Super Kal Senior Veteran

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    dcyates is right... it doesnt teach a rapture.
    it teaches resurrection. the only time we're caught up is when the first resurrection happens, as described in Rev20 and 1 Thes. 4:15-17
     
  14. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    also consider,

    cloud(s)...a mass multitude....see Heb12:1.
    air...see 1Cor15's mystery change...synonym for pneuma.

    and as you prob. know, caught up is more properly translated "seized".

    up is just not in the manuscripts at all...(in that particular scripture)
    .

    the Lord is Coming here, raising the dead
    and changing all of us to be like them,
    and gathering all the faithful (changed dead and changed alive) together

    right here!
     
  15. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    First of all, thank you for your response, LovedofHim.

    I'm sure you have plenty more such as you've cited above. However, given that heaven is the dwelling place of God, and that God is spirit, heaven isn't really a 'place' with extension in spatial terms. That is to say, it's not like we could send a rocket up into space and then definitively point it to where heaven is.
    And certainly, Jesus' ascension to the Father was naturally 'up'. But couldn't that direction have been for purely symbolic purposes? I mean, strictly speaking, all he really needed to do was rise up to the nearest cloud in order to get across to his disciples that he was going to heaven. He couldn't very well have achieved the same thing by moving sideways. (And obviously, moving 'down' would have communicated the exact opposite message.)

    But that said, the testimony of Scripture is that, far from heaven being actually 'up' in relation to ourselves (after all, my 'up' here in Canada is entirely different from the 'up' of somebody living in, say, Argentina -- which is essentially my 'down'), heaven is really here. It's simply that we're not able to fully perceive heaven because we're on the wrong, fallen side of the veil that separates the two realities.
    For example, when Elisha's servant awoke deathly afraid to find the city in which they were completely surrounded by the Aramean army, Elisha assured him by explaining that "those who are with us are more than those who are with them." He then prayed that God would "open his eyes that he may see," whereupon he saw the heavenly host waiting there ready to protect them (2 Kgs 6.15-19).
    Moreover, when God renews creation, heaven and earth will be one and the same, the way it was always meant to be (as in Gen 1&2). Note also that Jesus teaches us to pray that God's will be done here on earth just as it is in heaven. Additionally, notice in Revelation 21 where the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly city, descends from heaven to earth (not the other way around), thus symbolizing God's ultimate uniting of heaven and earth. Furthermore, we're told that at this time: "I heard a loud voice from the throne say, 'See! God's home (Gk. skene, 'tabernacle') is with mankind, and he will live (Gk. skenosei, 'tabernacle') with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God'" (Rev. 21.3). Especially noteworthy is that this "loud voice" quotes from a catena of OT texts; namely Lev 26.11-12: "Moreover, I will make my dwelling (lit. 'tabernacle') among you, and my Spirit will not reject you. I will also walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people" (see also Jer 31.33); Isa 7.14: "...and she will call his name Immanuel (i.e. 'God-with-us'; see also Isa 8.8, 10); and Ezek 37.27: "My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people" (see also John 1.14).
    Thus, the overwhelming witness of Scripture is that, far from us going to be with God in heaven, God's desire is to come and be with us here on earth.
     
  16. dcyates

    dcyates Senior Member

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    Put another way, if we really were to be 'raptured' up into the clouds at Christ's second coming, we'd be passing Jesus on his way down to earth.
     
  17. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven

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    Well, since the rapture will happen well before the second coming your point is .............pointless.
     
  18. realtruth101

    realtruth101 New Member

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    This is a very good example of spiritualizing everything written in the bible, This is really bad Hermeneutics, If you interpret the bible this way, were do you start or end this spiritualizing. Is the story of Jesus real or is it to all spiritual allegory, I've tried to debate spiritualizers, and found you can't! because none of the written word of God is as what it says, they always spiritualize reality away, Its a really strange belief system!:confused: and talk about confusing!
     
  19. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    O
    This scripture shows us that our mortal bodies will be changed into immortal bodies in a twinkle of and eye whether we are dead or alive when Jesus returns. This is what the rapture/resurrection is about. It is not about being delivered from the Tribulation, but to receive our immortal bodes.





    I actualy agree with most of what you have said here. This passage is referring to the resurrection more so than the rapture the rapture is a side note. Paul as you said is comforting the Thessalonias in the fact that their dead will return with Christ from Heaven, but he does add as a side note that we who are alive and remain until Christ return will also be caught up, this is what is referred to as the rapture. Your idea that posttribbers believe we go to Heaven at the posttrib rapture is a false assumption. We agree with what you have stated. when Jesus returns we meet Him in the clouds and ''escort'' Him back to Earth. I think what you have a problem with is the idea of a pretrib rapture. The fact is that as Christ is returning we will be changed into immortal bodies, the dead will be raised, and the living saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is the rapture
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2011
  20. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    Since this is not a pre/post trib debate, and yourindoctrination has blinded you. You point is.........pointles.

    By the way choose Wisely, we meet the Lord in the Air, and return with Himn to reign on the Earth.
     
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