Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

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Righttruth

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Okay, to be precise Oscar probably should have included 'new' before tongues as the vast majority (all?) of the translations do; but I think that we get his point.

But with his avoidance of the word 'new', it may lead to the thinking of unknown tongue that requires interpretation.

Another thing that I have noticed is that Oscar is mixing up fruit of the Spirit with spiritual gifts. Only fruit is not bound by any law.
 
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Righttruth

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What are you getting at here?

I don't see anything in the KJV translation of the verse that says anything different.

The use of the gift of tongues was in regular general use in churches right through to the 4th Century. Then as the church became mixed with pagan influences because of the great influx of nominal pagan Christians because of Emperor Constantine's edict that pagan temples should be closed and everyone worship at Christian churches, the supernatural gifts of the Spirit declined. It was that mixture of paganism that people who were not fully dedicated to Christ, plus a general decline in holiness, and the increase in formalism that put paid to the free operation of the gift of tongues and divine healing in the church. However, there were Charismatic groups that exhibited these gifts at times right through the subsequent history of the Church, but because they did not fit with the Church when it became RCC, they were treated as heretical. But the only evidence of these groups came from their enemies and transcripts of trials, because the literature generated by the groups was destroyed. But we can get clues of the true nature of these groups out of what their enemies said about them, and they sounded not much different from the Charismatic groups we have today! So, even though the official "orthodox" Church rejected tongues and healing, the Holy Spirit still moved outside of that, as He still does when our modern churches become so formalised that the Holy Spirit has no freedom to move how He wants to move. There is plenty of evidence around that the gift of tongues as practiced by modern-day Charismatics and Pentecostals is totally genuine, if people are prepared to look in the right places, instead of relying on the old, mouldy chestnuts that cessationists continue to trot out of the backside of their horses!

Reading through your earlier replies, it is apparent that you are equating fruit of the Spirit with spiritual gifts.
 
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Reading through your earlier replies, it is apparent that you are equating fruit of the Spirit with spiritual gifts.

Not really. What I am saying is that the fruit of the Spirit is the godly character that the Holy Spirit is working to establish in us. The gifts of the Spirit are the tools that the Spirit provides to enable that to happen. If the way the gifts are used do not cause the fruit of the Spirit to develop in a person then they are being misused. So, if a person prays in tongues regularly and as a result he becomes more loving, peaceful, joyful, good, patient, kind, gentle, faithful, and self controlled, then his use of the gift of tongues has to be in the Spirit and not in the flesh. But if a person uses a gift in a weird way that makes others confused, depressed, and lose their peace, then it is being misused and not in the Spirit.
 
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Biblicist

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It is extremely important to know the difference.
The reason why I inserted my flippant remark is that without reading Oscarr's previous posts I realised that he would not be equating the two as being one, which was evidenced by his last post.

I will admit I was certainly intrigued to see how he was going to reply to your question.
 
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Alithis

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Okay, to be precise Oscar probably should have included 'new' before tongues as the vast majority (all?) of the translations do; but I think that we get his point.
yeah .. theres a lot of nit picking and hair splitting going on over these topics .. siigh
 
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Righttruth

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Not really. What I am saying is that the fruit of the Spirit is the godly character that the Holy Spirit is working to establish in us.

It can be established only with a yielding spirit. It is not automatic.

The gifts of the Spirit are the tools that the Spirit provides to enable that to happen.

They are not related. Gifts are meant for common good.

If the way the gifts are used do not cause the fruit of the Spirit to develop in a person then they are being misused.

That is what I am saying too in a different way.

So, if a person prays in tongues regularly and as a result he becomes more loving, peaceful, joyful, good, patient, kind, gentle, faithful, and self controlled, then his use of the gift of tongues has to be in the Spirit and not in the flesh. But if a person uses a gift in a weird way that makes others confused, depressed, and lose their peace, then it is being misused and not in the Spirit.

But Paul said that if he prayed with his spirit, his mind will be unfruitful. Self-control is fruit, not a gift.
 
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Righttruth

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The reason why I inserted my flippant remark is that without reading Oscarr's previous posts I realised that he would not be equating the two as being one, which was evidenced by his last post.

I will admit I was certainly intrigued to see how he was going to reply to your question.

I have replied to his answer no. 65
 
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Biblicist

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They are not related. Gifts are meant for common good.
As much as Paul was saying that the Manifestations of the Spirit (along with two specific parallel Offices in 12:28) are intended to uplift and edify others; our ability to pray/praise the Father in the Spirit (tongues) is definitely the one operation that is specifically designed to benefit and uplift the individual. Of course when we couple tongues with interpretation within the congregational meeting, then these two can provide some limited edification to the group.
 
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It can be established only with a yielding spirit. It is not automatic.

If a person is genuinely born again and filled with the Spirit he will have a yielding spirit. If he didn't, there would be some doubt about that although he might have religion, he might not be genuinely converted.

They are not related. Gifts are meant for common good.

I'm talking about the effects that the gifts have upon the person.

But Paul said that if he prayed with his spirit, his mind will be unfruitful. Self-control is fruit, not a gift.

But the more he prays with his spirit, the more self-controlled he will be. That is my point.
 
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Righttruth

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As much as Paul was saying that the Manifestations of the Spirit (along with two specific parallel Offices in 12:28) are intended to uplift and edify others; our ability to pray/praise the Father in the Spirit (tongues) is definitely the one operation that is specifically designed to benefit and uplift the individual. Of course when we couple tongues with interpretation within the congregational meeting, then these two can provide some limited edification to the group.

OK. But the most important part of bearing the fruit of the Spirit cannot be ignored. One may not have the gift of tongues!
 
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Righttruth

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I'm talking about the effects that the gifts have upon the person.

Different gifts may be found in different persons. All given for common good. I don't see a verse that indicates gift having effect on an individual. Do you?

But the more he prays with his spirit, the more self-controlled he will be. That is my point.

How? I have not observed this in some churches.
 
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Biblicist

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OK. But the most important part of bearing the fruit of the Spirit cannot be ignored. One may not have the gift of tongues!
That's certainly true but if people choose not to pray in the Spirit then this is either due to a personal choice or a lack of knowledge. This still does not negate how praying in the Spirit (tongues) is the one specific operation of the Spirit that is entirely designed to benefit the person who is either praising God or praying in the Spirit.
 
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Righttruth

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That's certainly true but if people choose not to pray in the Spirit then this is either due to a personal choice or a lack of knowledge. This still does not negate how praying in the Spirit (tongues) is the one specific operation of the Spirit that is entirely designed to benefit the person who is either praising God or praying in the Spirit.

Does it mean that only who pray in unknown tongue are praying with the Spirit? Paul indicated that praying in an unknown tongue is by one's spirit.
 
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Biblicist

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Does it mean that only who pray in unknown tongue are praying with the Spirit? Paul indicated that praying in an unknown tongue is by one's spirit.
That's correct, only those who choose to pray or praise in tongues are doing so in the Spirit; if people choose not to do so then that's their perogative.

Even though the Greek does not contain capitals Paul's commentary leaves us with no doubt that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit is essentially the theme of 1Cor 12, 13 & 14 where Paul begins in 12:1 with "Now about spiritual matters...."
 
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That's correct, only those who choose to pray or praise in tongues are doing so in the Spirit; if people choose not to do so then that's their perogative.

Even though the Greek does not contain capitals Paul's commentary leaves us with no doubt that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit is essentially the theme of 1Cor 12, 13 & 14 where Paul begins in 12:1 with "Now about spiritual matters...."

The distinction is between the Spirit and the understanding. When a person is praying with the Spirit (in tongues) he is doing it in faith and in so doing he is bypassing his logical mind (the understanding). When he is praying with the understanding, he is praying in his ordinary language according to his logical mind. But this is still in faith because he is talking to a person he cannot see and the only evidence that the Person is there and listening to him is because the Scripture says so. Both forms of prayer are equally valid because they are directed to God. The thing about praying in tongues is that the person is always praying with God and the prayers are right in His will. Praying with the understanding may be to God but not always with God, because we pray for things that we might want or need in any situation, but they might not be what God wants for us at the time. But when we pray with God, knowing His will for us, we know that we will receive what we are praying for...sooner or later.
 
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