Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

[Biblicist]

a verse of interest ..
acts 20 :22...
“And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there........"

to me this displays a union of compulsion AND obedience to it .
what i find in the declaration of tongues (and or prophesy) is the the compulsion is often required to get the person to become the voice piece for the lord that he may speak into the congregation .. but he seeks out a heart willing to do so .. not a heart that has no interest . not a heart that desires to be seen to be doing so for their own glory ,it is essential that any one seeking for such gifts to be manifest through them desire ZERO glory for themselves ..
we must always and ONLY desire the lord JEsus be glorified and rejoice when he so chooses to speak through another and abandon care of anything else but him and HIS will to HIS glory

In Acts 20:22 where Luke recorded Paul's words, Luke said, δεδεμένος ἐγὼ τῷ πνεύματι which is "bound in spirit". Unlike that of prophecy, within a sizable and healthy congregation where there would be numerous prophets and those able to speak in tongues, the Spirit could probably choose from a number of different individuals to give a specific word; in Paul's situation, the Spirit's command that Paul was to do something is unique as there was no other who could undertake the work that he performed.

Even though Paul knew full well that he had no choice but to go, this compulsion to do what the Spirit said, could only be realised when Paul decided to go, would it be the same day when he realised what the Spirit was saying or would it be days or maybe weeks later; even if it was only hours or a day before he did so, it was still essentially up to him to decide.

Most importantly, one of the problems with discussing both compelling and exercised is that these two words are English words that neither Luke or Paul ever used. With regard to 'compel' or 'compelling' there is a companion Greek word which both Luke and Paul employed which is ἀναγκάζω anagkazo and it is used 9 times:

NASB/95

Matthew 14:22 Immediately He made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away.

Mark 6:45 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side to Bethsaida, while He Himself was sending the crowd away.

Luke 14:23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.

Acts 26:11 "And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.

Acts 28:19 "But when the Jews objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation.

2 Corinthians 12:11 I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody.

Galatians 2:3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Galatians 6:12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.​

 

[Isaacsname]

You need a few shots of Novocaine to really speak tongues

 

[Biblicist]

So, it is not Paul trying to place some order in people's lives, but maintaining order in Christian services. We mustn't get confused between the two. No-one has the right to tell me how to run my life if I am in Christ and subject to Him, but a church leadership has every right to dictate to me about how I should conduct myself in church, and I am sure that the Lord would totally agree.

If I can take the liberty of using this paragraph to summarise a couple of your posts. I will certainly agree that we need to avoid falling for man-made doctrins and traditions but this is why we have solid theological debate where Luther's mighty stand against the evils of Rome is a good example of where healthy debate has its merits.

As for seperating "...order in peoples lives" and "order in Christian services", I would take the opposite position in that I cannot see how we can apply 'order within our meetings' without this very same order not controlling the behaviour of those in the meeting, the two go hand in hand.

A good example with how Paul is both restraining and containing the behaviour of the individul members within Corinth (and the Universal Church) is found in 1Cor 14:27-30;

If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.​

 

[Biblicist]

You need a few shots of Novocaine to really speak tongues

Dare I say that at times I could maybe feel that this could be almost a viable option.

It seems that I read your worldly reference to "tongues" as "Greek"; so much for my new pair of expensive glasses.

To avoid this rather harsh approach, I decided to take the longer path a few years back where I did a course on how to use the various Biblical aids that were available at that time (1991).

Since this time the various publishers have made this task far less painful by releasing dozens and dozens of superb Greek commentaries and lexicons; though they certainly do not come cheap!

Besides my BibleWorks 9 software, I have obtained about 14 books on 1st Corinthians (plus maybe 100 + specialist electronic works). With Acts I am now placing a heavy reliance on Craig Keener's four volume work. So compiling the data is relatively simple but as with all of us, the hard part is to get that data into a workable order - and that's the really hard part of it all!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

a verse of interest ..
acts 20 :22...
“And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there........"

to me this displays a union of compulsion AND obedience to it .
what i find in the declaration of tongues (and or prophesy) is the the compulsion is often required to get the person to become the voice piece for the lord that he may speak into the congregation .. but he seeks out a heart willing to do so .. not a heart that has no interest . not a heart that desires to be seen to be doing so for their own glory ,it is essential that any one seeking for such gifts to be manifest through them desire ZERO glory for themselves ..
we must always and ONLY desire the lord JEsus be glorified and rejoice when he so chooses to speak through another and abandon care of anything else but him and HIS will to HIS glory

The Holy Spirit is always gentle in the way He "compels" people. Also, He does not take away a person's self control. What we are talking about is the way that people get up and prophesy in services, interrupting speakers. That type of compulsion is definitely not of the Holy Spirit, but is of the flesh.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If I can take the liberty of using this paragraph to summarise a couple of your posts. I will certainly agree that we need to avoid falling for man-made doctrins and traditions but this is why we have solid theological debate where Luther's mighty stand against the evils of Rome is a good example of where healthy debate has its merits.

As for seperating "...order in peoples lives" and "order in Christian services", I would take the opposite position in that I cannot see how we can apply 'order within our meetings' without this very same order not controlling the behaviour of those in the meeting, the two go hand in hand.

A good example with how Paul is both restraining and containing the behaviour of the individul members within Corinth (and the Universal Church) is found in 1Cor 14:27-30;

If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.​

I am in full agreement with what you are saying. What I am saying is that no-one has the right to dictate what I do in my personal life, because that is the role of the Holy Spirit within me. But when I am in a Christian service, I am subject to the leadership of that service, because they are responsible to God for the way the service is run and the Holy Spirit would want me to subject myself to the leadership in what do or say in that service.

 

[Biblicist]

I am in full agreement with what you are saying. What I am saying is that no-one has the right to dictate what I do in my personal life, because that is the role of the Holy Spirit within me. But when I am in a Christian service, I am subject to the leadership of that service, because they are responsible to God for the way the service is run and the Holy Spirit would want me to subject myself to the leadership in what do or say in that service.

I agree.

 

[Alithis]

In Acts 20:22 where Luke recorded Paul's words, Luke said, δεδεμένος ἐγὼ τῷ πνεύματι which is "bound in spirit". Unlike that of prophecy, within a sizable and healthy congregation where there would be numerous prophets and those able to speak in tongues, the Spirit could probably choose from a number of different individuals to give a specific word; in Paul's situation, the Spirit's command that Paul was to do something is unique as there was no other who could undertake the work that he performed.

Even though Paul knew full well that he had no choice but to go, this compulsion to do what the Spirit said, could only be realised when Paul decided to go, would it be the same day when he realised what the Spirit was saying or would it be days or maybe weeks later; even if it was only hours or a day before he did so, it was still essentially up to him to decide.

Most importantly, one of the problems with discussing both compelling and exercised is that these two words are English words that neither Luke or Paul ever used. With regard to 'compel' or 'compelling' there is a companion Greek word which both Luke and Paul employed which is ἀναγκάζω anagkazo and it is used 9 times:

NASB/95

Matthew 14:22 Immediately He made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away.

Mark 6:45 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side to Bethsaida, while He Himself was sending the crowd away.

Luke 14:23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.

Acts 26:11 "And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.

Acts 28:19 "But when the Jews objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation.

2 Corinthians 12:11 I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody.

Galatians 2:3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Galatians 6:12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.​

sometimes i think we over emphasise the word compel. love also compels us to certain actions .. where we are so moved by compassion we simply "must' act on it .
i think this is more the essence of the matter and angle from which we should view it .

 

[Alithis]

The Holy Spirit is always gentle in the way He "compels" people. Also, He does not take away a person's self control. What we are talking about is the way that people get up and prophesy in services, interrupting speakers. That type of compulsion is definitely not of the Holy Spirit, but is of the flesh.

haha going on some of the sermons iv sat through over the years ..it may be a most welcome event

have you read some of the sermons of wigglesworth .. in the text are suddenly the words "tongues & interpretation" followed by a sentence which is the interpretation. It appears that during his sermons either Mr wigglesworth himself ..or another, broke into tongues and then interpretation was given , and then the sermon continues .
the interrupt did not over ride but rather agreed and bore witness to the preaching .
methinks our "man added rules " stifle such occurrence so much we have lost the liberty of even allowing for it .

 

[Biblicist]

haha going on some of the sermons iv sat through over the years ..it may be a most welcome event

Yes, my wife and I visited an ACC (AoG) church last Sunday where we walked back into the world of "why you should give to our building fund" which certainly smacked of 'compulsion'.

have you read some of the sermons of wigglesworth .. in the text are suddenly the words "tongues & interpretation" followed by a sentence which is the interpretation. It appears that during his sermons either Mr wigglesworth himself ..or another, broke into tongues and then interpretation was given , and then the sermon continues .
the interrupt did not over ride but rather agreed and bore witness to the preaching .
methinks our "man added rules " stifle such occurrence so much we have lost the liberty of even allowing for it .

As much as I have a lot of respect for Smith Wigglesworth where I read the two autobiographies about him years back, along with the ancedotes by his friend Alexander Boddy that were included in a posthumos biography of Boddy; this in MY opinion would be an example of where Wigglesworth got it a wrong.

As tongues are always (without exception within the congregational setting) directed to the Father; this means that I could not see how a tongue + interpretation could fit into a sermon; unless of course, his sermon was about the wonders of God.

 

[Alithis]

Yes, my wife and I visited an ACC (AoG) church last Sunday where we walked back into the world of "why you should give to our building fund" which certainly smacked of 'compulsion'.


As much as I have a lot of respect for Smith Wigglesworth where I read the two autobiographies about him years back, along with the ancedotes by his friend Alexander Boddy that were included in a posthumos biography of Boddy; this in MY opinion would be an example of where Wigglesworth got it a wrong.

As tongues are always (without exception within the congregational setting) directed to the Father; this means that I could not see how a tongue + interpretation could fit into a sermon; unless of course, his sermon was about the wonders of God.

tongues AND interpretation not tongues only ... but hey he went around casting out cancer making lame walk and raising dead .. he couldn't have been getting to much wrong

 

[Biblicist]

tongues AND interpretation not tongues only ... but hey he went around casting out cancer making lame walk and raising dead .. he couldn't have been getting to much wrong

As much as Wigglesworth was certainly a fine man of God where it seems that he was a rare breed; Smith was certainly far from being perfect as none of us are. I'm trying to find the book) about a joint campaign that was held by Alexander Boddy and Smith Wigglesworth, along with the Norwegian Evangelist T.B. Barrett who remarked that the week long meeting was somewhat flat where even Smith Wigglesworth was unable to minister any healing during the week.

With the ministry of old, it appears that we tend to primarily hear of their successes where the various quiet-times within their ministry are easily overlooked. Are we to say that Wigglesworth lacked faith or that he was spiritually flat (could be possible) or were there other reasons for the apparent lack of the Spirit's ministry?

 

[Alithis]

As much as Wigglesworth was certainly a fine man of God where it seems that he was a rare breed; Smith was certainly far from being perfect as none of us are. I'm trying to find the book) about a joint campaign that was held by Alexander Boddy and Smith Wigglesworth, along with the Norwegian Evangelist T.B. Barrett who remarked that the week long meeting was somewhat flat where even Smith Wigglesworth was unable to minister any healing during the week.

With the ministry of old, it appears that we tend to primarily hear of their successes where the various quiet-times within their ministry are easily overlooked. Are we to say that Wigglesworth lacked faith or that he was spiritually flat (could be possible) or were there other reasons for the apparent lack of the Spirit's ministry?

ouh .. thats an easy one when you think about it ... but there have been "some" folks that do not like the answer .... from Matt 13: -58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

haha going on some of the sermons iv sat through over the years ..it may be a most welcome event

have you read some of the sermons of wigglesworth .. in the text are suddenly the words "tongues & interpretation" followed by a sentence which is the interpretation. It appears that during his sermons either Mr wigglesworth himself ..or another, broke into tongues and then interpretation was given , and then the sermon continues .
the interrupt did not over ride but rather agreed and bore witness to the preaching .
methinks our "man added rules " stifle such occurrence so much we have lost the liberty of even allowing for it .

Smith Wigglesworth's ministry and preaching were unique. His use of the gift and interpretation of tongues is specific to his ministry and never appeared with others as far as we know. Wigglesworth would stop in the middle of his preaching, speak in tongues, and interpret. It is possible that someone else might have given the interpretation, but we are not told. There is no indication that anyone else interrupted his preaching with a tongues message, so to day that this type of thing happened is just pure speculation.

One of the characteristics of the fruit of the Spirit is self control. Another is patience. If a person feels "compelled" to give a prophecy or tongues message during the preaching of a sermon, then if that person is in the Spirit, then he would have the patience and self-control to wait for an opportune moment and not break into the flow of the sermon. If he did, he would be doing in the flesh and not the Spirit.

If we evaluated many things that go on in Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings by the principle of self-control, patience, kindness and gentleness, we would soon see that many "manifestions of the Spirit" are in actual reality outbursts of the flesh; and maybe the prophecy or tongues itself comes from the flesh and not the Spirit on those occasions.

 

[Alithis]

Smith Wigglesworth's ministry and preaching were unique. His use of the gift and interpretation of tongues is specific to his ministry and never appeared with others as far as we know. Wigglesworth would stop in the middle of his preaching, speak in tongues, and interpret. It is possible that someone else might have given the interpretation, but we are not told. There is no indication that anyone else interrupted his preaching with a tongues message, so to day that this type of thing happened is just pure speculation.

One of the characteristics of the fruit of the Spirit is self control. Another is patience. If a person feels "compelled" to give a prophecy or tongues message during the preaching of a sermon, then if that person is in the Spirit, then he would have the patience and self-control to wait for an opportune moment and not break into the flow of the sermon. If he did, he would be doing in the flesh and not the Spirit.

If we evaluated many things that go on in Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings by the principle of self-control, patience, kindness and gentleness, we would soon see that many "manifestions of the Spirit" are in actual reality outbursts of the flesh; and maybe the prophecy or tongues itself comes from the flesh and not the Spirit on those occasions.

well yes i did speculate .its interesting t have it some what confirmed that it was smith himself .however im not surprised to find the gift of tongues and interpretation manifest that way...
often at prayer meetings i pray in tongues ..sometimes loudly with abandonment .. im just confused as to why not many others speak of this, for when it happens ,so often i get such a strong sense of what is being spoke or declared or prayed and i find i have no need to know more .but for the sake of those others around me i (not always but often ) then pray in english.. so that they may say amen .honestly i dont even begin to understand these things .i find it's better to just go with it in faith .
i find also that when i pray with the understanding i pray ..small things ,which is fine .but "sometimes" when the Holy Spirit moves in what we call a tangible anointing , for want of a better description, i find myself praying large ..(ie , nations ,powers ,salvations, globally )

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is interesting to note when I read a biography of Smith Wigglesworth, that in a meeting, someone did interrupt him by speaking loudly in tongues. Wigglesworth stopped him and told him off saying that he was being very rude interrupting a speaker like that. So it seems that Wigglesworth did not approve of interruptions of that kind, which makes me believe that the tongues and interpretations in the middle of his sermons were his own and not from anyone else interrupting him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

well yes i did speculate .its interesting t have it some what confirmed that it was smith himself .however im not surprised to find the gift of tongues and interpretation manifest that way...
often at prayer meetings i pray in tongues ..sometimes loudly with abandonment .. im just confused as to why not many others speak of this, for when it happens ,so often i get such a strong sense of what is being spoke or declared or prayed and i find i have no need to know more .but for the sake of those others around me i (not always but often ) then pray in english.. so that they may say amen .honestly i dont even begin to understand these things .i find it's better to just go with it in faith .
i find also that when i pray with the understanding i pray ..small things ,which is fine .but "sometimes" when the Holy Spirit moves in what we call a tangible anointing , for want of a better description, i find myself praying large ..(ie , nations ,powers ,salvations, globally )

Prayer meetings are not public meetings in the same way as the Sunday morning/evening fellowship meeting. Prayer meetings are for the purpose of prayer, in the Spirit and with the understanding. So it is normal to have a mixture of tongues and English in a meeting like that, because we are not there to edify each other but to pray to and with God. A prayer meeting is directed to God, although many pray as a way of "lecturing" the others in the room, as people do. So if a person prays in tongues in a prayer meeting, then they can't be using prayer as a type of sermon to the others because the others wouldn't understand what he is saying

Of course there are exceptions to the rule, like in a prayer meeting I heard about where a Ghanaian brother heard his own village dialect being spoken by a NZ guy speaking in tongues!

 

[Righttruth]

3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Where there is sound doctrine and the gospel is preached these signs will follow.

Mark 16:17 Cast out devils, speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Which version of the Bible you are using to quote the above the verse since it is misleading? KJV translates as:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Which version of the Bible you are using to quote the above the verse since it is misleading? KJV translates as:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

What are you getting at here?

I don't see anything in the KJV translation of the verse that says anything different.

The use of the gift of tongues was in regular general use in churches right through to the 4th Century. Then as the church became mixed with pagan influences because of the great influx of nominal pagan Christians because of Emperor Constantine's edict that pagan temples should be closed and everyone worship at Christian churches, the supernatural gifts of the Spirit declined. It was that mixture of paganism that people who were not fully dedicated to Christ, plus a general decline in holiness, and the increase in formalism that put paid to the free operation of the gift of tongues and divine healing in the church. However, there were Charismatic groups that exhibited these gifts at times right through the subsequent history of the Church, but because they did not fit with the Church when it became RCC, they were treated as heretical. But the only evidence of these groups came from their enemies and transcripts of trials, because the literature generated by the groups was destroyed. But we can get clues of the true nature of these groups out of what their enemies said about them, and they sounded not much different from the Charismatic groups we have today! So, even though the official "orthodox" Church rejected tongues and healing, the Holy Spirit still moved outside of that, as He still does when our modern churches become so formalised that the Holy Spirit has no freedom to move how He wants to move. There is plenty of evidence around that the gift of tongues as practiced by modern-day Charismatics and Pentecostals is totally genuine, if people are prepared to look in the right places, instead of relying on the old, mouldy chestnuts that cessationists continue to trot out of the backside of their horses!

 

[Biblicist]

Which version of the Bible you are using to quote the above the verse since it is misleading? KJV translates as:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Okay, to be precise Oscar probably should have included 'new' before tongues as the vast majority (all?) of the translations do; but I think that we get his point.