The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

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Robert Pate

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I don't think you intented to agree with my statement so unequivocally. I believe that is exactly what the Bible teaches, but I don't believe you do. I stated, "The actions of these two representative men were not potential but actual." By that I mean, that just as the actions of Adam guaranteed the condemnation of all he represented; the actions of Christ guaranteed the justification and final glorification of all he represented. This occurred when they acted, not after those represented were born. You can't believe what you claim and believe that. If Jesus represented ALL MEN [that would be all in Adam] then all men would be justified. Jesus represented all in him, not all without exception.

Romans 5:18 Says that the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life. I didn't write that, Paul did.

Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47.

This means that salvation has been provided for all. Whether all want it or not is another matter.
 
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So, then, it is faith that saves him and not Christ since the work of Christ itself did not save all the others for whom he died. Many of them are already perishing in hell because they lacked faith even though Jesus completely satisfied the wrath of God on their behalf, objectively accomplished their justification, reconciled them to God, which includes the non imputation of their sins, and set them free from their sins by his death [redeemed them], and yet they are still perishing. Strange theology. Jesus paid their debt in full and now they too must pay for eternity? Jesus did his best to save them but they wouldn't let him? Poor Jesus! And you think that is the picture of a victorious Savior? If that is your savior, you may keep him. I like the one who gets what he pays for.
 
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I don't believe I saw the word "Provided" in the text. Either he justified the "all men" for whom he died or he didn't. Unless you can show me a Greek manuscript that has the word "provided" I will have to believe he either effectively represented "all men" without exception and actually justified them, or what the text really means, that just as Adam effectually condemned all who were in him as their representative, so Christ effectively redeemed and justified "all" who were in him as their representative. That is Paul's argument in the entire passage. Our final glorification is certain because we have a new representative before God.

Surely, even in your theology you believe God foresaw who would be in Christ and who wouldn't. Do you think Jesus was trying to redeem those [many of whom were already dead and doomed at the time] he knew would never believe? It is difficult to believe the omniscient God of the universe would determine to accomplish something he knew already was not going to occur.
 
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"Limited Atonement" implies that Jesus has not dealt with ALL sin.

Either Jesus is Lord or he is not.

If Jesus has NOT dealt with ALL of the sins of humanity then he is not Lord. A Lord is one that has complete control over his domain." Pate

Here you are commenting against Calvinism and you don't even understand it. Perhaps you should study a bit before you comment further. The sufficiency of Christ's death is not the issue. The real issue is what you have denied, i.e., the absolute effectiveness of Jesus' death for all he intended to redeem. As Boetner stated [paraphrased], "For the Arminian, Christ's redemption is like a great, wide bridge that only goes half way across the chasm; For the Calvinist, it is a narrow bridge that goes all the way across." For you, it is a redemption that doesn't redeem, a propitiation that doesn't propitiate, a justification that doesn't justify, and a reconciliation that doesn't reconcile. "Jesus did his best, but mean ole sinners just wouldn't cooperate." Poor Jesus! And you think that glorifies God?
 
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Robert Pate

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"Limited Atonement" implies that Jesus has not dealt with ALL sin.

Either Jesus is Lord or he is not.

If Jesus has NOT dealt with ALL of the sins of humanity then he is not Lord. A Lord is one that has complete control over his domain." Pate

Here you are commenting against Calvinism and you don't even understand it. Perhaps you should study a bit before you comment further. The sufficiency of Christ's death is not the issue. The real issue is what you have denied, i.e., the absolute effectiveness of Jesus' death for all he intended to redeem. As Boetner stated [paraphrased], "For the Arminian, Christ's redemption is like a great, wide bridge that only goes half way across the chasm; For the Calvinist, it is a narrow bridge that goes all the way across." For you, it is a redemption that doesn't redeem, a propitiation that doesn't propitiate, a justification that doesn't justify, and a reconciliation that doesn't reconcile. "Jesus did his best, but mean ole sinners just wouldn't cooperate." Poor Jesus! And you think that glorifies God?



Adam was created as a free agent.

The Garden of Eden was his domain. If he would have asked God would have removed the serpent. But he didn't. He allowed the serpent to tempt Eve that led to his own down fall.

By Adam's own free will he sinned against God.

God does not force anyone to believe in him and his Son Jesus Christ. What glory would that bring to God, 0.

Man has a free will, God is not taking anyone to heaven that does not want to be there with him and his Son Jesus Christ.

God did not create a bunch of mindless robots that have no will of their own.

"Choose this day whom you will serve."
 
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drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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Adam was created as a free agent.

The Garden of Eden was his domain. If he would have asked God would have removed the serpent. But he didn't. He allowed the serpent to tempt Eve that led to his own down fall.

By Adam's own free will he sinned against God.

This is pure speculation, rewriting Genesis to fit your theology. No thanks!
 
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As stated earlier, you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Apart from the comment about "free will" which you have conveniently left undefined, you have not stated one real issue. They are all straw men. Talk to us about what we actually believe, not what you suppose we believe, and perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion. I suspect, however, you won't do that since the straw men are so much easier to refute. "C.H. Spurgeon said, "What a wonderful deed has been made by some men in burning figures of their own stuffing. How earnestly do they set themselves to confute what no one defends."
 
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Robert Pate

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To be a Calvinist you must believe that God imposed salvation upon you. This means that you didn't have a choice.

Adam had a choice. He chose to follow the devil. Therefore, men are created with the ability to choose. It is not possible to live in this world without making choices, everyday we make hundreds of choices.

We are all free agents just like Adam. We have the ability to chose good and we have the ability to chose evil.

This is the way God created us. There is no glory for God in an imposed salvation. There is no glory for God when one of his programmed robots accepts Christ as their savior.

The scripture says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents and turns to Christ by their own free will.
 
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As I stated, bring up a real issue and we will discuss it. Give me a verse that states we have the ability to choose good. Show me the text that says "the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents and turns to Christ BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL." Not sure what version you are reading from but I can't find that in my Greek text. Apart from the free will thing for which you haven't a shred of Scripture, you keep making meaningless statements with which no one disagrees. STRAW MEN!
 
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drstevej

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The scripture says that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents and turns to Christ by their own free will.

The scripture says that "the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents"

Robert Pate adds "and turns to Christ by their own free will."

WORD FOR THE DAY: eisegesis
 
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If Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all of humanity, how is it that God's wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience?

"3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." The text does not say God's wrath is coming on them for unbelief, but because of "These Things." i.e., sexual immorality, impurity, coveteousness etc. If Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all those sins, how then can God's wrath come on them? Still waiting for that text that describes Jesus' work as "POTENTIAL." Every place in my Bible his work is described it is spoken of as an accomplishment.
 
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Robert Pate

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The scripture says that "the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents"

Robert Pate adds "and turns to Christ by their own free will."

WORD FOR THE DAY: eisegesis

So you believe that sinners repent but they don't turn to Christ by their own free will.

How about this...

The angels in heaven rejoice when one of God's programmed sinners repents and turns to Christ.

I don't know why they would rejoice. It would just be another day in heaven. You know, boring.
 
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drstevej

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Robert, is there free will in heaven? Can an angel choose not to rejoice and booooo instead?


====

Free Will in Heaven
(Adapted from and with apologies to Eric Clapton -- Tears in Heaven)


Beyond the door,
There's peace I'm sure.
And I know there's got to be
Free will in heaven.

Would you throw a fit,
If He controlled you in heaven?
Would it be the same,
If He bound your will in heaven?

You must be strong,
And carry on.
'Cause you know there's no free will
Here in heaven
 
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To answer your question, even though I suspect you are too obtuse to understand the answer, God rejoices when sinners repent because it is his desire that his creatures be like him in holiness. Since he is holy, he cannot but rejoice in holiness wherever he finds it. God's published desire is that sinners turn from sin. All day long he has stretched out his hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people. Why wouldn't he rejoice?
 
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Robert Pate

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If Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all of humanity, how is it that God's wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience?

"3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." The text does not say God's wrath is coming on them for unbelief, but because of "These Things." i.e., sexual immorality, impurity, coveteousness etc. If Jesus satisfied God's wrath for all those sins, how then can God's wrath come on them? Still waiting for that text that describes Jesus' work as "POTENTIAL." Every place in my Bible his work is described it is spoken of as an accomplishment.


All who have accepted Christ as their savior are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are placed "In Christ." Colossians 3:1, 2, 3. They are eternally secure. "The Son's of Disobedience" are not "In Christ." They are lost.

To be outside of Christ is to be under his wrath. They have not ceased from their own works nor have they entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

Even though salvation has been provided for them they have not accepted it. They continue to be religious and deny the Gospel. If one does not accept God's great free gift of salvation they are lost.
 
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