The Whole Law/Grace/Sabbath Issue

squint

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A few general observations

Jesus already answered Satan on 'Word of God' issues:

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It is abundantly clear that from Jesus that NONE of Gods Words should be cast out or put aside. It is also clear that EVERY WORD of God has LIFE for mankind, and that would INCLUDE every WORD of the LAW as well. Those after all are GODS WORDS as well. Attempting to toss them out on the basis of delivery only to Israel are quite baseless. If what Jesus told Satan was TRUE, then NONE of Gods Words are evaporated or eliminated on ANY legitimate basis. Jesus didn't say ONLY ISRAELITES will LIVE by every Word of God, but that MAN will therein LIVE BY.

If we take Paul's words here seriously and you are posting here you are presumably 'in Christ' and therefore are also IN NO CONDEMNATION:

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Using our measures from Paul WHY would any 'grace' believer think they can look at, oh, THE LAW of the O.T. and find CONDEMNATION for themselves IF there is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ?

One might think they can look at The Words of Jesus and FIND LIFE in EVERY WORD of God...if they are looking 'properly.' They should be ABLE to LOOK and even OBSERVE the LAW of the O.T. and NOT find condemnation as there IS NONE for those in Christ. Why fight it, the LAW of the O.T?

Paul advised us about EVERY or ANY OTHER COMMAND which 'includes the LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT' right here and laid it SMACK DAB upon us as to 'INTENT:'

Believers in Pauls DIRECTIVE here are clearly COMMANDED to love 'our' neighbors as ourselves. Paul SANDWICHES the OLD TESTAMENT LAWS right in the midst of the COMMANDS to LOVE and INCLUDES therein ANY OTHER COMMAND which also INCLUDES all the O.T. commands. Paul INCLUDED some of the commands of the O.T. LAW in his statement here:

Romans 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

If those who look to the WORDS OF GOD, the OLD TESTAMENT LAW and see it ANY OTHER WAY than in LOVE, they will be looking at same IN ERROR and in FALSENESS by tossing it OUT.

There is no condemnation there FOR YOU if you are IN CHRIST...

There is no FLESHLY OBSERVATION THERE applicable for YOU (such as slicing animals to pieces or stoning people) because THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW, and ALL LAWS therein are entirely summed up BY LOVING OUR FELLOW MANKIND, OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES...

Any other VIEW of ANY COMMANDMENT that does not result in the FINAL PRODUCT of the SPIRIT, which is LOVE is FALSE.

There is in short simply no basis to THROW OUT or DO AWAY with ANY COMMAND if those commands are observed PROPERLY, with the end result clearly set forth by Paul, to love our neighbors.

On the same token, ANY PERSON who uses THE LAW as a 'basis of condemnation' i.e. conveying SIN unto believers in Christ wherein there is NO CONDEMNATION are also viewing the LAW falsely. MAN will LIVE by EVERY WORD of God. There are NO DEATH WORDS to CHRISTIANS in Gods Words, PERIOD.

The entire reasoning and BASIS for ALL COMMANDS is to love our neighbors. There is NO OTHER INTENTION OF ANY COMMAND to those in Christ Jesus than this and there is NO CONDEMNATION in LOVE.

enjoy!

squint
 

Frogster

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Hi.
To me,it is pretty clear.The law was a shadow,not the realities.Paul was quite clear,the the Sabbath was "religion",that to some,has the appearence of wisdom,but again,was a shadow that could not stop fleshly indulgences.Just like in Galatians,he rebuked them for keeping seasons and years.We are set free from religion.!:clap:
 
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Yarddog

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The entire reasoning and BASIS for ALL COMMANDS is to love our neighbors. There is NO OTHER INTENTION OF ANY COMMAND to those in Christ Jesus than this and there is NO CONDEMNATION in LOVE.

enjoy!

squint
Hello Squint,
That kinda jumped around and was a little confusing. Do you recommend that we obey the dietary laws as well as all Hebrew holy days. Do we refuse to work on all Sabbaths?

Or do you mean that Paul was talking about the 10 commandments? When we love, we do not steal from another. When we love. we do not kill. When love, we do not covet. When love, we do not lie, etc..
 
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squint

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Hi.
To me,it is pretty clear.The law was a shadow,not the realities.Paul was quite clear,the the Sabbath was "religion",that to some,has the appearence of wisdom,but again,was a shadow that could not stop fleshly indulgences.Just like in Galatians,he rebuked them for keeping seasons and years.We are set free from religion.!:clap:

Paul rebuked fleshly observations of LAW and the BONDAGE and CONDEMNATION that IS NOT THERE for that intent that arrives to the heart by following THE FLESHLY observances.

The Law still stands and it stands for LIFE AND LOVE.

There are of course 'other purposes' for that same LAW, but as it relates to 'believers' who are in CHRIST there is NO CONDEMNATION for them there. None. And there is no basis of 'elimination' IF the summation of 'ANY OTHER COMMAND' is the basis to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS as ourselves.

The Law, ALL OF IT, is summed up and accomplished IN US by Christ Himself when that happens.

s
 
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squint

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Hello Squint,
That kinda jumped around and was a little confusing. Do you recommend that we obey the dietary laws as well as all Hebrew holy days. Do we refuse to work on all Sabbaths?

What we put into our mouths with washed or unwashed hands will NOT PRODUCE LOVE...so if you observe ANY COMMAND with a FLESHLY INTENTION to produce LOVE then that VIEW of the command is FALSE. The flesh command will however SHOW sin in the flesh which is EVIL within when followed in that manner. This is an entirely different working of that same law but this direction for the LAW, even of the O.T. is NOT the direction that the LAW or The Words of God are meaning to take us to.

Or do you mean that Paul was talking about the 10 commandments? When we love, we do not steal from another. When we love. we do not kill. When love, we do not covet. When love, we do not lie, etc..

ALL of Gods Words and ALL of the commandments are for the direct intentions to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS as ourselves.

Slicing animals to pieces will NOT PRODUCE LOVE. That was and remains a FLESHLY ORDINANCE designed to DRAW OUT the fact that following the LAW or the WORD on the basis of fleshly observance will only show the fact of indwelling sin and evil present IN THE FLESH. That too is a working of the LAW, but that angle is not meant for believers, but for that which is IN THE FLESH for 'children of the flesh' to take up AND VIOLATE to prove it is THERE.

s
 
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Frogster

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That just goes to show us all.The law works in accordance with the flesh.But as a shadow,had no power over the flesh.I am glad to walk in God's power,not my own,that which comes by the law.Phil 3:9.

The law says,YOU DO!

Grace says..I WILL.(God):)
 
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squint

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The O.T. Law is substantially more fascinating when viewed through the eyes of LIGHT, LOVE AND LIFE.

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Following the lead of Christ or of Paul or any of the Apostles on advisements of LAW are ALL and entirely for the intentions of LIFE AND LOVE to our neighbors.

Following the LAW of the O.T. in a fleshly manner not only will not, but CANNOT produce Love in our hearts. It is impossible for the FLESH to produce LOVE. Love comes from and is of God.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

IF you do not LOVE your brother OR your neighbor then YOUR FLESH including your MIND is controlled by THE DEVIL. The child of the DEVIL is in control of the FLESH when NO LOVE to our neighbors is PRESENT within the heart.

The Law then in fleshly manner CAUSES the DEVIL to enter the heart, to STEAL the Word as to the intention of LOVING OUR NEIGHBORS and to FOLLOW that same Law in a 'fleshly' manner causing the produce of DEATH to our neighbors rather than LIFE and to also cause 'self justification' by following that Law, again only in FLESHLY manner as the produce of LOVE to our neighbors will always be MISSING... i.e. NO FRUIT present in that branch.

The produce in ANY FLESHLY FOLLOWER of LAW or of CHRIST is openly evident. Such 'use' the LAW to justify their OWN FLESHLY OBSERVANCES and to CONDEMN other people for their lack of same following, when that was NEVER the intention of ANY COMMAND to begin with as it pertains to GODS CHILDREN.

Children of the DEVIL however are proven out by their LACK of LOVE which they CANNOT produce of their own in and by their FLESH. It is GOD in the HEART who produces and brings LOVE.

The intention of ALL COMMANDS is to love our neighbors, period. Yes, even the LAW of the O.T. Yes, even the NEW COVENANT is based upon that FOUNDATION of LIFE and of LOVE.

There is no other foundation.

God IS Love.

s



 
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Frogster

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That is why Paul rebuked them for leaving the true Gospel of grace,by tyring to follow the law of Moses in Galatians 1.For freedom Christ has set us free,no yoke of bondage,:clap:.

If we walk in Grace,it is saying..you keep me Lord,my power is of little value.
 
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squint

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That is why Paul rebuked them for leaving the true Gospel of grace,by tyring to follow the law of Moses in Galatians 1.For freedom Christ has set us free,no yoke of bondage,:clap:.

If we walk in Grace,it is saying..you keep me Lord,my power is of little value.

ALL commands 'including' the commands of MOSES are followed when the produce IN US is loving our neighbors as ourselves. That is WHY it cannot be thrown away or eliminated UNLESS you try to understand or follow same IN THE FLESH. THEN it produces 'children of the flesh.'

Children of the flesh MISUSE The Law. They vainly try to THROW IT OUT or TWIST IT to mean something OTHER THAN LIFE or LOVE to our neighbors.

Sound familiar?

It should.
 
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Frogster

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ALL commands 'including' the commands of MOSES are followed when the produce IN US is loving our neighbors as ourselves. That is WHY it cannot be thrown away or eliminated UNLESS you try to understand or follow same IN THE FLESH. THEN it produces 'children of the flesh.'

Children of the flesh MISUSE The Law. They vainly try to THROW IT OUT or TWIST IT to mean something OTHER THAN LIFE or LOVE to our neighbors.

Sound familiar?

It should.
Paul died(threw it out) to the law,because he saw it did not stop coveting.
 
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squint

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Paul died(threw it out) to the law,because he saw it did not stop coveting.

Uh, no, Paul served THE SPIRIT of that SAME LAW which is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

ALL the commandments are to be understood AND FOLLOWED in that way to that extent and NOT by mere 'fleshly observances and ordinances.'

Love to our neighbors is the full engagement and fulfillment of THE LAW. All of it.

None of it was 'thrown out' but the FLESH WORKS which are meaningless except to show the presence of indwelling sin and evil present therein. And even in that way the LAW stands TRUE to that SHOWING.

Many in christiandom merely land on one side of the equation trying to DIVIDE LOVE from THE LAW when Paul clearly TIED AND BOUND LAW and LOVE securely TOGETHER.

Those who DO NOT LOVE their neighbors are under the Law of the Spirit proven to be quite LAWLESS and they are so under the LAW of sin in the flesh as well because of the LACK of that produce.

s
 
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katholikos

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If you have some reasonable/logical discourse for the opening post, PLEASE have at it.

Are you kidding? This subject has been done to death. Just like there used to be a million threads on the pope, now there's a million threads on the sabbath.

It is reasonble to point out that there are far too many threads on one subject
 
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squint

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Are you kidding? This subject has been domne to death.

If you bothered to read either the title of the thread or the opening post you might have actually noticed it's more about Law/Grace and a peaceful, logical methodology to put those issues to rest.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If you bothered to read either the title of the thread or the opening post you might have actually noticed it's more about Law/Grace and a peaceful, logical methodology to put those issues to rest.
I would say that is what the Covenantle parable in Luke 16 is symbolizing.

[And yes, I know that is not a "mainstream" view :D ], but this Messianic at this link appears to agree with me, as do some other Christian commentators concerning the story/parable. Thoughts?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between Us and Ye a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725) [Revelation 14:11?]

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable - Christian Forums
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
 
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squint

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I would say that is what the Covenantle parable in Luke 16 is symbolizing.

[And yes, I know that is not a "mainstream" view :D ], but this Messianic at this link appears to agree with me, as do some other Christian commentators concerning the story/parable. Thoughts?

Did you know that there was a 'certain rich man' that was in control of the heart of David? Even David condemned the rich man within himself.

The 'rich men' are 'symbolic' of the vessel of DIShonor, the child of the flesh, the child of THE DEVIL that is largely in control of the hearts of mankind (Lazarus-one whom God favors) in this present environment. Looking at a man in the flesh will not yield a spiritual truth of discernment of what is within and with us ALL.

It is problematic to come to grips with the fact that thoughts of EVIL are not from children of God but of the devil. No one really can deal with that fact unless God shows them the facts within.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Did you know that there was a 'certain rich man' that was in control of the heart of David? Even David condemned the rich man within himself.

The 'rich men' are 'symbolic' of the vessel of DIShonor, the child of the flesh, the child of THE DEVIL that is largely in control of the hearts of mankind (Lazarus-one whom God favors) in this present environment. Looking at a man in the flesh will not yield a spiritual truth of discernment of what is within and with us ALL.

It is problematic to come to grips with the fact that thoughts of EVIL are not from children of God but of the devil. No one really can deal with that fact unless God shows them the facts within.
:thumbsup:
Unless we become like children, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven [Matt 18:3]

John 8:44 Ye out of a father the Devil are and the desires/lust/epi-qumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing. [Matt 21:43/Reve 18:14]

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

Reve 18:14 And the fruition of the desire/epi-qumiaV <1939> of the soul of thee, departed from thee.
And all the sumptious-things and shinings perished from thee. And not still not no shall be finding them.
 
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