The wedding at Cana: Wine or grape juice?

[Albion]

Alcohol is a habit forming drug that can lead to alcoholism and or in one getting drunk (Which is a sin)..

It still is the case that we all are against Alcoholism. But that's not the issue. The issue is the use of Alcohol, not whether Alcoholism is a sin/wrong/harmful, etc.

 

[Berean777]

There is no text in Scripture that says Jesus drank alcoholic intoxicating wine with his disciples.

As for Jesus eating and drinking and being called a glutton and a drunk: I already addressed this issue here within this thread.

Sorry I can no longer entertain your imposition on scripture to make it say what it doesn't.

Here we have a clear example where the body of Christ is coming left and right at you to counsel you in love, by exhorting you to the truth, where you are continuing to refuse to accept the truth, why?

If I may kindly say, did you once have a problem with alcohol that makes it an evil to you now. If so, then I commend you to continue your stance against alcohol, but please consider that all people do not have a problem with alcohol.

As Jesus replied to the people who charged him for being a drunkard that it is not the alcohol that determines the problem, but the LACK OF wisdom and righteousness that is measured by the deeds that follow by that individual who can't handle his/her drink. In other words if you can't handle the drink you should never let it touch your lips. In that regard I am 100% with you and support your stance, especially for those people who can't handle their drink.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It still is the case that we all are against Alcoholism. But that's not the issue. The issue is the use of Alcohol, not whether Alcoholism is a sin/wrong/harmful, etc.

Alcohol is fine in moderation, bad in excess, and if you're poor a certain passage seems to encourage the use of alcohol.

 

[Berean777]

There is no text in Scripture that says Jesus drank alcoholic intoxicating wine with his disciples.

As for Jesus eating and drinking and being called a glutton and a drunk: I already addressed this issue here within this thread.

I just want to say in love that I commend you for what you believe in and what you are doing and I encourage you to continue to do so. The Lord made me look at how much significant and valuable you are to the healing of people who need your message.

I therefore will end my words by saying may Christ bless you and succeed through you.

Once again from your brother in Christ I commend your stance against alcoholism and I pray success in your endeavour to help others who have problems with alcoholism, which today fill our hospital wards with the sick from this poison it has become in their lives.

I therefore humble myself and kindly bow out of this thread and pray wellness for you and others who do the work of Christ.

God bless

 

[Blank Stair]

While the NT saint has a liberty in Christ, Strong alcoholic wine is forbidden in OT Scripture for the OT saint. They were not even to look upon the drink that was alcoholic (Proverbs 23:31).

The problem with excising a scripture to make a point of one's choosing is that often enough it's out of context. And as such doesn't make the true point at all.

That scripture is referring to alcoholism. Otherwise, Jesus sinned and violated that scripture when he created barrels of wine for the wedding at Cana.

Wine was compared with being a serpent or an adder. Proverbs also says wine is not for kings. Jesus is a king and we are kings and priests. Habakkuk 2:15 says woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.

Jesus was there when Proverbs and Habakkuk were inspired. And yet, he turned water into wine. He was then according to your interpretation of these verses enabling sin?

Not sure what this has got to do with anything. The belief that Jesus made non-intoxicating wine or grape juice goes back to Biblical times and can be traced thru out history.

It doesn't matter what beliefs traced back or how far. What matters is scripture and what it says. Scripture says Jesus turned water into wine. Not into grape juice. Not into anything but wine.

 

[Rajni]

First, Jesus is eternally God. Second, Jesus would not violate a teaching that He would later put forth with His disciples or followers. For Paul says if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Being that God is eternal, don't you think that if He had that
much of a problem with something as mundane as
fermented grape juice that He would have simply prevented
the possibility of it existing?



-

 

[katerinah1947]

Alcohol is a habit forming drug unlike say grape juice. Alcohol is one of the top killers in the world. It's not a mindless statistic of just mere abuse. It is a deadly habit forming drug that is merely legalized for you to take. The end of it's addiction is sin or drunkenness. Here is a quote from an old article:

• "There are over 18 million alcoholics in America.
  
• Cirrhosis of the liver kills over 30,000 each year and rising.
• 50 percent of the people on welfare are due to killer alcohol.
• 80 percent of all fire deaths are due to killer alcohol.
• 65 percent of the drownings
• 22 percent of home accidents
• 77 percent of falls
• 36 percent of pedestrian accidents
• 65 percent of all murders
• 40 percent of all assaults
• 35 percent of all rapes
• 30 percent of other sex crimes
• 30 percent of all suicides
• Over 80 percent of all arrests are linked to killer alcohol!

The Bible says, ". . . at last it biteth like A SERPENT." Do you know what a serpent bite is? POISON! Did you know that alcohol is poison? Every major organ in your body is poisoned by alcohol. Why do you think a bartender says, "NAME YOUR POISON"!? When a man is drunk, he is INTOXICATED. Do you know what a TOXIC is? IT IS A POISON! A drunk man is a man who has LITERALLY POISONED HIMSELF! "

The point of the article above is not that it may be statistically accurate. We already know alcohol kills millions each year. That is a pretty high number for an addictive drug. Many men thirst and or have an occasional romanticism concerning this drug (Whereby they are never truly satisfied). Something is missing in these men's lives if they are thirsting after this drug or if they are seeking to put it before Jesus. They need to fill this void or empty thirst with Jesus Christ instead.

For Jesus said in John 7:37,"IF ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink."

John 4:14 says,"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him SHALL NEVER THIRST; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

For what need is there for a man to thirst after alcohol if they have "the well of water of life" from Christ who quenches their thirst?

As for Mark 9:38-42:
Not sure how this helps your case with your defense of Jesus making alcoholic intoxicating wine.


Article Source used:
http://www.av1611.org/drug.html

Hi,

Alcohol is a habit forming drug unlike say grape juice. Alcohol is one of the top killers in the world. It's not a mindless statistic of just mere abuse. It is a deadly habit forming drug that is merely legalized for you to take. The end of it's addiction is sin or drunkenness. Here is a quote from an old article:

• "There are over 18 million alcoholics in America.
  
• Cirrhosis of the liver kills over 30,000 each year and rising.
• 50 percent of the people on welfare are due to killer alcohol.
• 80 percent of all fire deaths are due to killer alcohol.
• 65 percent of the drownings
• 22 percent of home accidents
• 77 percent of falls
• 36 percent of pedestrian accidents
• 65 percent of all murders
• 40 percent of all assaults
• 35 percent of all rapes
• 30 percent of other sex crimes
• 30 percent of all suicides
• Over 80 percent of all arrests are linked to killer alcohol!

The Bible says, ". . . at last it biteth like A SERPENT." Do you know what a serpent bite is? POISON! Did you know that alcohol is poison? Every major organ in your body is poisoned by alcohol. Why do you think a bartender says, "NAME YOUR POISON"!? When a man is drunk, he is INTOXICATED. Do you know what a TOXIC is? IT IS A POISON! A drunk man is a man who has LITERALLY POISONED HIMSELF! "

The point of the article above is not that it may be statistically accurate. We already know alcohol kills millions each year. That is a pretty high number for an addictive drug. Many men thirst and or have an occasional romanticism concerning this drug (Whereby they are never truly satisfied). Something is missing in these men's lives if they are thirsting after this drug or if they are seeking to put it before Jesus. They need to fill this void or empty thirst with Jesus Christ instead.

For Jesus said in John 7:37,"IF ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink."

John 4:14 says,"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him SHALL NEVER THIRST; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

For what need is there for a man to thirst after alcohol if they have "the well of water of life" from Christ who quenches their thirst?

As for Mark 9:38-42:
Not sure how this helps your case with your defense of Jesus making alcoholic intoxicating wine.


Article Source used:
http://www.av1611.org/drug.html

Hi,

Dear. Mark 9:38-42 is important to all Christians as the direct words of Jesus. So, I no matter what you believe, have no rights past a certain point, to discuss this with you.

On the matter of what you eat, or how you pray, or how you worship Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit, and no matter how you follow The Way, that too is forbidden by some of us to talk about past a certain point. Romans 14 is very clear about that. Paul is not speaking on his own there.

I will put all of Romans 14 here for you:



Romans 14New International Version (NIV)
The Weak and the Strong
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone,and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt?For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]

Footnotes:

1. Romans 14:10 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in verses 13, 15 and 21.
2. Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23
3. Romans 14:23 Some manuscripts place 16:25-27 here; others after 15:33.

New International Version (NIV)
Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry I can no longer entertain your imposition on scripture to make it say what it doesn't.

Here we have a clear example where the body of Christ is coming left and right at you to counsel you in love, by exhorting you to the truth, where you are continuing to refuse to accept the truth, why?

If I may kindly say, did you once have a problem with alcohol that makes it an evil to you now. If so, then I commend you to continue your stance against alcohol, but please consider that all people do not have a problem with alcohol.

As Jesus replied to the people who charged him for being a drunkard that it is not the alcohol that determines the problem, but the LACK OF wisdom and righteousness that is measured by the deeds that follow by that individual who can't handle his/her drink. In other words if you can't handle the drink you should never let it touch your lips. In that regard I am 100% with you and support your stance, especially for those people who can't handle their drink.

No, I never had a problem with alcohol. I am just going by what I believe the Word of God clearly states. It's a moral issue and many today ignore many moral things that the Bible clearly teaches. For it would be immoral for Jesus to create an intoxicating drug whereby it would be recorded in Scripture openly for all to see so as to encourage all future generations of drunks to think it was okay to continue to drink alcohol.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear. Mark 9:38-42 is important to all Christians as the direct words of Jesus. So, I no matter what you believe, have no rights past a certain point, to discuss this with you.

I gotcha. You do think I would understand it or accept it. I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I believe I am taught by the Spirit. I don't think I would have any troubles understanding what you are saying on that passage. Granted, you may have an interpretation that might differ from mine. But that is why we are here. To discuss the Bible, right?

On the matter of what you eat, or how you pray, or how you worship Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit, and no matter how you follow The Way, that too is forbidden by some of us to talk about past a certain point.

What verse tells you that?

Romans 14 is very clear about that. Paul is not speaking on his own there.

Verses?

Romans 14New International Version (NIV)
The Weak and the Strong
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone,and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt?For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]

I just recently said something to someone else by way of private chat. I am going to repeat it here (Because I was not sharing anything private that I would not say openly to all).

"For clarity, I am an Absentionist and not a Prohibitionist. Prohibitionists believe that drinking alcohol is a sin.

Abstentionists believe that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol in the New Testament but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it (except in some cases for the occasional rare medical situation so as to relieve pain). However, in this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).

I believe there are three types of wines mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Grape juice.
#2. Wine that was very low in alcoholic content (Which was a mix of water and of a highly concentrated form of wine that was carried around in wine skins).
#3. Wine that is very high in alcoholic content (of Which the Bible warns against many times). This type of wine has many warnings attached to it. Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging. Wine bites like a serpent. One is not to look upon the red in a cup (of this type of wine even).

While I believe the Jews drank #2, I believe Jesus made #1. This lines up with what Jesus said that no man desires the new after having tasted the old. Meaning, those who were used to their old covenant ways (i.e. old wine) would not be open to the new wine (i.e. Jesus's new covenant teachings).

I hope what I said here helps you to understand a little better in where I am coming from."

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

May God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For what exactly is the difference between new wine and old wine in folks view here? Folks just act like all wine is the same. Alcoholic.

For no man desires the new after having the old.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It still is the case that we all are against Alcoholism. But that's not the issue. The issue is the use of Alcohol, not whether Alcoholism is a sin/wrong/harmful, etc.

As I said before. I provided points that condemn strong alcoholic wine and not just alcoholism. Please go back to the link I provided in Post #353 and check out my 6 points.

 

[yesyoushould]

Scripture says water into wine, so I go with that.

 

[yesyoushould]

For what exactly is the difference between new wine and old wine in folks view here? Folks just act like all wine is the same. Alcoholic.

For no man desires the new after having the old.

So drunkards is a false term, since strong alcohol didn't exist in old? I don't understand. It is written "have a little wine ye old men...".

 

[katerinah1947]

I gotcha. You do think I would understand it or accept it. I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I believe I am taught by the Spirit. I don't think I would have any troubles understanding what you are saying on that passage. Granted, you may have an interpretation that might differ from mine. But that is why we are here. To discuss the Bible, right?

What verse tells you that?



Verses?



I just recently said something to someone else by way of private chat. I am going to repeat it here (Because I was not sharing anything private that I would not say openly to all).

"For clarity, I am an Absentionist and not a Prohibitionist. Prohibitionists believe that drinking alcohol is a sin.

Abstentionists believe that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol in the New Testament but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it (except in some cases for the occasional rare medical situation so as to relieve pain). However, in this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).

I believe there are three types of wines mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Grape juice.
#2. Wine that was very low in alcoholic content (Which was a mix of water and of a highly concentrated form of wine that was carried around in wine skins).
#3. Wine that is very high in alcoholic content (of Which the Bible warns against many times). This type of wine has many warnings attached to it. Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging. Wine bites like a serpent. One is not to look upon the red in a cup (of this type of wine even).

While I believe the Jews drank #2, I believe Jesus made #1. This lines up with what Jesus said that no man desires the new after having tasted the old. Meaning, those who were used to their old covenant ways (i.e. old wine) would not be open to the new wine (i.e. Jesus's new covenant teachings).

I hope what I said here helps you to understand a little better in where I am coming from."



May God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

Hi,
I have understood your position, I think for a long time, now. Please allow me again with fewer words now to say what I have just said in one part, but with more detail on another part.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Hi,
You have strong beliefs on alcohol, whether you are right or wrong, I am not allowed to contend with you. Jesus spoke of that in Mark 9:38-42. In light context, The Apostles who knew much about Jesus and proobaly God also compared to everyone else, were being spoken to on an issue, that is very exact, compared to this one.
The issue for me is, if I know more than you, I am not allowed to contend with you. Rather I am to let that go to Jesus in his Own good time, unless it is the Father that is still teaching you as mentioned in John 6, and possibly John 7, and then it is up to the Father to direct you who to go to.

You also follow some belief system, but obviously you think Jesus is God. I am to leave you alone in whatever way you worship God, or in whatever foods you eat or do not eat for God, including this alcohol issue of yours. That is clearly said in Romans 14 to me. And it does mention wine there. However, I am to leave you alone.

I am to leave you alone, because if God asked you to do that for Him, then me saying anything is saying something against God, in what He has asked you to do for Him. And, none of us will probably ever be correct, in telling God that He is wrong for asking anyone to do something for Him.

You are off limits, per God's instructions for me. Please try to understand that I do understand your position, and you also. I also understand what I am told by God to do. And that I don't think you understand. I don't think that you understand my prohibitions given to me by God, through Scripture.

Usually I am defending myself, using Romans 14, from others. This is the first time, that I have to back off from someone because of Romans 14. Others, even those not of our faith have backed off from me, when I tell them of any practice that I do for God. I tell them really what Romans 14 says. It is this on worship:

If on Thursday, at 4:15, I start jumping around and spinning around on one foot, while saying Yippee, Yippee, and I am doing that for God, You, and no one can tell me that I am wrong for worshippping God that way, if God asked me to do that, for then you are criticizing God. You are not criticizing me.

Mark 9:38-42 also applies to you, on issues that you may be more knowledgeable in God on than others. You are more at fault if you make them upset, than if they make you upset with God on that issue.

The point has been reached where, even though wine is said to be good it looks like in Romans 14, by Paul, the rest of Romans 14, and Mark 9:38-42, says that I can no longer speak to you, much on this issue of yours, for I cannot tell whether you are mistaken, or doing this for God, or thinking it is sinful and therefore it is a sin for you.

That's the rules. And listening to you, it seems you are serious about Jesus, and His Father, and His Holy Spirit. So, you are not against us. You are for us.

I can say more. This is enough.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So drunkards is a false term, since strong alcohol didn't exist in old? I don't understand. It is written "have a little wine ye old men...".

The real point Jesus was trying to illustrate was the difference between the New Covenant Teachings (New Wine) with the Old Covenant Teachings (Old Wine). So by logic on this stand that the teachings would be different, it is logical to assume that the New Wine and the Old Wine would be slightly different from one another.

It's not that strong intoxicating wine did not exist. There are many warnings in the OT against such a drug or intoxicant. The OT saint was told not to even look into the cup while it was red and moves itself aright. This was clearly not the same wine that the Jews commonly drank in the Old Testament times. There wine was diluted by water and was very low in alcoholic content. However, Jesus's wine was new and they had to be willing to accept it. For even the ceremonial washing containers that Jesus used to turn water into unfermented wine or grape juice was a picture of saying that the New Covenant was going to replace the Old Covenant. For once the unfermented wine was in those containers, it was saying that the Jew could no longer go back to wash themselves by their Old Testament ways anymore. So the wines are different. For no man who drinks the old desires the new. Why? Because he is accustomed to his old drink or his old teachings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,
I have understood your position, I think for a long time, now. Please allow me again with fewer words now to say what I have just said in one part, but with more detail on another part.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Hi,
You have strong beliefs on alcohol, whether you are right or wrong, I am not allowed to contend with you. Jesus spoke of that in Mark 9:38-42. In light context, The Apostles who knew much about Jesus and proobaly God also compared to everyone else, were being spoken to on an issue, that is very exact, compared to this one.
The issue for me is, if I know more than you, I am not allowed to contend with you. Rather I am to let that go to Jesus in his Own good time, unless it is the Father that is still teaching you as mentioned in John 6, and possibly John 7, and then it is up to the Father to direct you who to go to.

You also follow some belief system, but obviously you think Jesus is God. I am to leave you alone in whatever way you worship God, or in whatever foods you eat or do not eat for God, including this alcohol issue of yours. That is clearly said in Romans 14 to me. And it does mention wine there. However, I am to leave you alone.

I am to leave you alone, because if God asked you to do that for Him, then me saying anything is saying something against God, in what He has asked you to do for Him. And, none of us will probably ever be correct, in telling God that He is wrong for asking anyone to do something for Him.

You are off limits, per God's instructions for me. Please try to understand that I do understand your position, and you also. I also understand what I am told by God to do. And that I don't think you understand. I don't think that you understand my prohibitions given to me by God, through Scripture.

Usually I am defending myself, using Romans 14, from others. This is the first time, that I have to back off from someone because of Romans 14. Others, even those not of our faith have backed off from me, when I tell them of any practice that I do for God. I tell them really what Romans 14 says. It is this on worship:

If on Thursday, at 4:15, I start jumping around and spinning around on one foot, while saying Yippee, Yippee, and I am doing that for God, You, and no one can tell me that I am wrong for worshippping God that way, if God asked me to do that, for then you are criticizing God. You are not criticizing me.

Mark 9:38-42 also applies to you, on issues that you may be more knowledgeable in God on than others. You are more at fault if you make them upset, than if they make you upset with God on that issue.

The point has been reached where, even though wine is said to be good it looks like in Romans 14, by Paul, the rest of Romans 14, and Mark 9 38-42, says that I can no longer speak to you, much on this issue of yours, for I cannot tell whether you are mistaken, or doing this for God, or thinking it is sinful and therefore it is a sin for you.

That's the rules. And listening to you, it seems you are serious about Jesus, and His Father, and His Holy Spirit. So, you are not against us. You are for us.

I can say more. This is enough.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

It is not wrong to voice my convictions of what I believe to be right according to the Word of God. I am talking about the morality behind the miracle that Jesus did. Most folks would like to sweep God's goodness or His morality under the carpet. While I understand that believers have different convictions on which day they want to worship, and while I understand that believers have different convictions on what they believe they should drink and eat, it is not wrong for me to point out the dangers of alcohol and to warn them of such said dangers to protect their lives and the lives of others (around them). For to protect lives is to love; And love is one of the highest Christian duties God calls us to do. Not our love, but the love of God working in us. Now, if we were talking about someone being offended by my eating meat, then I would not eat meat in front of them. But this is clearly not what is in view with the topic of alcohol, though. Alcohol destroys lives. It's not a matter of opinion but it is a matter of fact. It does more harm than any good in this world. God is good. So I really do not see how He can be all happy if one of His own were to indulge (even on occasion) in such a destructive substance. Yes, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture says water into wine, so I go with that.

Baily and Nathan English Dictionary 1763.

WINE ~ a Liquor made of the Juice of
the Grapes or other Fruits.

LIQUOR
LIQlJOUR ~ any thing that is liquid,
Prink, Juice, Water, & c.

Source:
https://archive.org/details/universaletymolo00bail

Dictionary.com

Definition #3.
WINE ~ the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.

Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wine?s=t

 

[katerinah1947]

It is not wrong to voice my convictions of what I believe to be right according to the Word of God. I am talking about the morality behind the miracle that Jesus did. Most folks would like to sweep God's goodness or His morality under the carpet. While I understand that believers have different convictions on which day they want to worship, and while I understand that believers have different convictions on what they believe they should drink and eat, it is not wrong for me to point out the dangers of alcohol and to warn them of such said dangers to protect their lives and the lives others (around them). For to protect lives is to love; And love is one of the highest Christian duties God calls us to do. Not our love, but the love of God working in us. Now, if we were talking about someone being offended by my eating meat, then I would not eat meat in front of them. But this is clearly not what is in view with the topic of alcohol, though. Alcohol destroys lives. It's not a matter of opinion but it is a matter of fact. It does more harm than any good in this world. God is good. So I really do not see how He can be all happy if one of His own were to indulge (even on occasion) in such a destructive substance. Yes, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

Hi,

To voice convicitions given to anyone by God is fine. To tell others they must do what God has commanded a single person to do is not fine.

And the way to voice convictions, is very important. It has to be done, the way God does it, or wants it to be done also.

He gave us Matthew 7:15 for that. The figs are men. The grapes are women. And when I tested this, on people, it has always been true.

The results mean to me, that nothing a person says, who is not a grape on a grape vine, which never hurts me when I get near and pick the information from them, is to be listened to, except any direct quotations out of The Bible or other references.

None, of their understandings are to be listened to. None of what they know of God is to be listened to, outside of them directly quoting from the Bible. That only, direct quotes can be listened to.

The results mean to me with men, similar to women, is if they are not kind, gentle loving not just while performing in public, but to all people everywhere, then I can not listen to a word they say, outside of direct qoutes from the Bible or other reference sources that are proven to be accurate.

At this point, I am still going with your actions depicting God asking you to do something for Him worship wise, or you are young in the faith, as I have too little indications of anything else now.

Prohibition has been proven to do more harm than Good by our government, and we are commanded to follow those government laws as it is said in Romans 13:1-5. Anyone who says alcohol should be prohibited, is now on the wrong side of God, per those passages. However the words you use to establish your position on alcohol are entirely esoteric at this point, and possibly abstruse.

Please spare me the work of having to do that. It seems fairly obvious with all your words, of your position on alcohol, and those words put you on the wrong side of Romans 13:1-5, and it puts you on the wrong side of Romans 14 for alcohol as indeed in Romans 14, it says wine is good.

I have said that I take your posiition as worship, or lack of knowledge. I also take it so far, that you are no wolf in sheeps clothing. For, me, your God says that wine is fine, but if it bothers you, when we are together, you will not see me drink it, and I won't with you. Thus, I am not causing you harm in God.

However, please realize that not only Romans 14, but Romans 13:1-5 says that your position on wine is not correct in the eyes of God.

That being said, and that being true that you still do not see how Romans 13:1-5, and Romans 14 say you are wrong about wine, then I can say little to you, as you know less Biblically than I do, therefore Mark 9:38-42 applies to me. I cannot contend with you.

And I do say tenderness and mildness, the way Jesus is, it is to be followed by me as much as possible. So, how can I say that you are wrong, or show you things like Romans 14, where wine is called good, when you are convinced it is otherwise, or God has put a restriction on you alone, for alchohol, that does not apply to anyone else almost? I cannot.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi,

To voice convicitions given to anyone by God is fine. To tell others they must do what God has commanded a single person to do is not fine.

And the way to voice convictions, is very important. I has to be done, the way God does it, or wants it to be done also.

He gave us Matthew 7:15 for that. The figs are men. The grapes are women. And when I tested this, on people, it has always been true.

The results mean to me, that nothing a person says, who is not a grape on a grape vine, which never hurts me when I get near and pick the information from them, is to be listened to, except any direct quotations out of The Bible or other references.

None, of their understandings are to be listened to. None of what they know of God is to be listened to, outside of them directly quoting from the Bible. That only, direct quotes can be listened to.

The results mean to me with men, similar to women, is if they are kind, gentle loving not just while performing in public, but to all people everywhere, then I can not listen to a word they say, outside of direct qoutes from the Bible or other reference sources that are proven to be accurate.

At this point, I am still going with your actions depicting God asking you to do something for Him worship wise, or you young in the faith, as I have too little indications of anything else now.

Prohibition has been proven to do more harm than Good by our government, and we are commanded to follow those government laws as it is said in Romans 13:1-5. Anyone who says alcohol should be prohibited, is now on the wrong side of God, per those passages. However the words you use to establish your position on alcohol are entirely esoteric at this point, and possibly abstruse.

Please spare me the work of having to do that. It seems fairly obvious with all your words, of your position on alcohol, and those words put you on the wrong side of Romans 13:1-5, and it puts you on the wrong side of Romans 14 for alchohol as indeed in Romans 14, it says wine is good.

I have said that I take your posiition as worship, or lack of knowledge. I also take it so far, that you are no wolf in sheeps clothing. For, me, your God says that wine is fine, but if it bothers you, when we are together, you will not see me drink it, and I won't with you. Thus, I am not causing you harm in God.

However, please realize that not only Romans 14, but Romans 13:1-5 says that your position on wine is not correct in the eyes of God.

That being said, and that being true that you still do not see how Romans 13:1-5, and Romans 14 say you are wrong about wine, then I can say little to you, as you know less Biblically than I do, therefore Mark 9:38-42 applies to me. I cannot contend with you.

And I do say tenderness and mildness, the way Jesus is, it to be followed by me as much as possible. So, how can I say that you are wrong, or show you things like Romans 14, where wine is called good, when you are convinced it is otherwise, or God has put a restriction on you alone, for alchohol, that does not apply to anyone else almost? I cannot.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

I just started to read your post and had to stop. I disagree strongly and believe it to be wrong on so many levels. While I do have to sleep, I will get back to your post tomorrow (if I have time) and give you an answer with Scripture.

 

[katerinah1947]

I just started to read your post and had to stop. I disagree strongly and believe it to be wrong on so many levels. While I do have to sleep, I will get back to your post tomorrow (if I have time) and give you an answer with Scripture.

Hi,

Please do not confuse this, and you will if you want to answer with other Scriptures before you use the ones given;;; Those of Mark 9:38-42, Romans 14, and Romans 13:1-5. After you refute, Romans 13:1-5, on following the Governments laws on Prohibition, and refute Paul saying wine is good, then it is appropriate to use other Scripture.

If you don't see yet, how Romans 14, and Romans 13:1-5 apply, then I really do know more than you do, just like those Apostles who knew more about Jesus than the man who merely knew something about Jesus, and had much else wrong. He knew how to use the name of Jesus to cast out demons.

And if I know more, then I have to follow Mark 9:38-42, and I do, and I will, for your sake and for God's pleasure and love of you, and Jesus.

LOVE, (My best remembrance of the Way God actually loves.)
...Mary., .... .