The war in heaven: Rev 12

[zeke37]

Okay, great that you just read the chapter. That will make it easier to discuss. Let me ask you to look at Rev. 15 - the end verses, and where are the people that came out of great tribulation found in Rev. 7?

in His temple



How many plagues must end before men can enter into the temple of God?
7


Do you see what I'm saying as to how John marks entry points for his subjects? He also tells us when he sees them again? Sometimes, he saw another one do the very same act, such as another angel flew.

Don't think that what you write to me is not studied, noted a bunch, and looked at sometimes several times. One reason I do that as to people that post here (not always) is because maybe we can build from what we do agree on. such as - We both see that Ezekiel chapter 9 can be used to help figure out what is taking place in Rev. 7.

I've always said that imo there are two possibilities
1-post trib scene of overcomers
2-pre trib when the 144000 are sealed

I have leaned towards #2 because of Ez9's timing lining up with Rev7's beginning
but you make a good point for #1

Let's look at the following:

Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven, great..."

Does this immediately make you wonder where the first sign in heaven took place? When did John first start to see signs in heaven?

Rev. 18:1
"And...I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power..."

John does not just tell his readers when another angel shows up, he tells them - what type of angel shows up,

Rev. 10:1
"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven..."

This time instead of saying - it had great power, John told us - or the translators did, that it was mighty.

Here is when the first of that type of act was seen by John.

Rev. 5:2
"And I saw a strong angel..."

This angel heads places to find someone worthy to open the sealed book. John does not say outright that it comes down from heaven. What he does do, is list the places searched for someone to open the sealed book - even to look upon it.

no man in heaven
nor in earth
neither under the earth

This angel seems to go around crying out his message in all of these places, thus - he came down from heaven.

Now, how does this apply to Rev. 7?
Well, first you read about a new set of angels.
4 - in the group
They stood on the four corners of the earth-holding the four winds of the earth.

Verse 2 is where you want to look closely. What did John tell us that he saw?

v2
"And I saw another angel ascending from the east..."

Sticking to how John writes as to his subjects, this would mean that this angel is not the only angel that came from the east.

it could simply mean that another angel is coming, this time out of the east.

A group of angels is coming - as ascending from the east for what reason? If they just were sent to seal people, then why come from the east?

east is a reference to Christ, the Light of the World.

Think about what takes place during the trumpets and the vials of God's wrath. What comes on the earth, sea and trees, during those times?

plagues

plagues do not come until the vials, which is after Babylon falls Rev18

How can any plagues occur in Rev. 8, if they didn't first show up in Rev. 7?

they don't show up in Rev8.
they don't show up until after the Lord Comes.
the trumps are not "plagues"

How could the seven angels appear in Rev. 8, if they first didn't have a job to do in Rev. 7?

sorry, not following

Rev. 1.....Rev. 7... another angel ascending from the east....Rev. 8:2
...the seven angels...

I understand your basis.
i'm interested. but not yet convinced

Consider what did the one that set a mark on people for protection wear in Ezekiel 9?
linen

What did he have with him?

a way to destroy -hurt stuff

he did not.
he had a way to save people.
the other 6 had a way to slaughter, but not him.

So, would those angels that come from the east and set out to seal people in Rev. 7 need to look - in linen , and have a way to hurt?

the hurting comes after the sealing.
the hurting is detailed later.

Rev. 7 shows that the set of four angels gain something once the come from the east angels started to show up.

to whom it was given
to hurt

When the came from the east angels showed up in Rev. 7, they came with the trumpet plagues - but hand them - give them over to the four angels to cause the havoc.
Yes, the trumpets will sound in heaven. That sealing angel set of seven will return to heaven and do what the one in linen did in Ezekiel 9.

but he did not do it. he marked the good guys.
and he did it first, then the bad stuff happens to them,
brought on by the other 6 slaughterers

they will give a report

This is why John heard the numbers being stated as to how many were sealed.

This is now when the seven angel set is standing before God.

Rev. 8:2
"And I saw the seven angels which stood before God..."

so, your saying the trumpet blowers are present in the sealing,
and i'm saying that they are not.

now, maybe the first half of Rev7 details the elect, sealed before it all goes down
and then mybe we are not told about the trib or wrath at all in this vision,
but only see the good guys all gathered to God after it is all over in the latter half of Rev7.

 

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[ebedmelech]

I don't see where it says that the prince of this world was cast from heaven, or even forever cast from heaven at that time.

now shall
the prince of this world be cast out

The correlation is with Rev 12:9. If you follow what happens in heaven, it's very easy to see. This is the war...
Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Satan is "cast down" to earth. Now follow what happens in heaven:
Rev 12:10
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

It's very easy to know this is prior to the cross because Christ "authority" did not come until He was resurrected. We know that from Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

This is why Jesus said in John 12:31:
31 Now is the judgement of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

With Jesus now about to go to the cross Satan's time is short time because believers will now have the power of the Holy Spirit, which comes at Pentecost.

How do you know that he wasn't cast out of the world?

Rev. 12 shows the dragon will war in heaven - be cast out forever - and persecute the woman - who will be given wings. This is all before she can go to her prepared place for 1260 days.

Because as quoted above the voice in heaven tells you Satan was cast down to earth.

Rev. 12:14
"And to the woman were given wings...


--------v6
"And the woman fled into the wilderness...."


It seems as if a whole lot of stuff was seen in both chapters 12 and 13 before the woman - did that fled into the wilderness act.


as to the celebration

Rev. 12 shows that Satan was accusing in heaven - before the throne of God - the brethren on the earth.

1 -- the brehren were not even yet started at the time of the cross
2 --the dragon will chase those that he had been accusing in heaven, so he has to have access to the throne - against the brethren up to the end days.

the generation- of the accused brethren

Only then - is he cast down - and heaven - rejoices.
then it is - woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea

When you read this as hold it all in context, you understand. There were brethren started. What do you call the disciple and all who followed Jesus to the cross? There were many many believers in Christ before the cross.

Your point 2 makes no sense. Read the passage. Satan is fighting against believers! Why do you think Rev 12:17 says:
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

THAT IS THE CHURCH!

When you hold context, and reflect on what Jesus said, it's easy to see. Why do you think the apostle tells you to put on the full armor of God? You're in spiritual warfare!

These are not future events...they happened already. The Church is in continuous war with Satan! We overcomes by the BLOOD OF CHRIST!

Revelation 12 is a snapshot from the birth of Christ to the birth of the church.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Bethwhite]

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
Rev 12:8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


It seems that some believe this war happened historically, when Christ ascended to Heaven.

If Satan and his angels are already cast down from the heavenly places, then how is our struggle against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places?



Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Because it's not historical, it's future. Satan is still able to accuse Christians before God in heaven. Rev 12 shows us the moment he is cast down to the earth - when our salvation (Christ) comes and we are caught up:

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

 

[Hockey_Fan]

Interesting. I used to believe Satan was cast out of heaven before human beings were created on the earth.

Here it shows people in heaven sort of celebrating. Well, if this were past tense, who would be around to celebrate? Angels, perhaps. Maybe it is future tense and the people celebrating are people who have died and are already in heaven.

 

[Bethwhite]

Interesting. I used to believe Satan was cast out of heaven before human beings were created on the earth.

Here it shows people in heaven sort of celebrating. Well, if this were past tense, who would be around to celebrate? Angels, perhaps. Maybe it is future tense and the people celebrating are people who have died and are already in heaven.

He was but he is still able to stand before God and accuse humanity, like he did with Job. He will be cast down to the earth, no longer able to stand before God and accuse us.

Yes, it's very particular people (overcomers by the blood of the Lamb) who are dwelling in heaven and rejoicing at a moment in time when our salvation (Christ) has now come.

That moment in Rev 12:10-12 is the moment just after the rapture of the church.

 

[Partaker of Christ]

Interesting. I used to believe Satan was cast out of heaven before human beings were created on the earth.

Here it shows people in heaven sort of celebrating. Well, if this were past tense, who would be around to celebrate? Angels, perhaps. Maybe it is future tense and the people celebrating are people who have died and are already in heaven.

I believe that there are at least 3 heavens in scripture.

The Highest heaven were God’s throne is.

The heavens were all the stars and planets are

The lower heaven, that is the air or earth's atmosphere.
[FONT=&quot]Satan is said to be the prince of the air, and I tend to believe that this is where his last fall is from.[/FONT]

 

[ebedmelech]

He was but he is still able to stand before God and accuse humanity, like he did with Job. He will be cast down to the earth, no longer able to stand before God and accuse us.

Yes, it's very particular people (overcomers by the blood of the Lamb) who are dwelling in heaven and rejoicing at a moment in time when our salvation (Christ) has now come.

That moment in Rev 12:10-12 is the moment just after the rapture of the church.

First point...Job was before Christ came and achieved salvation, so that's very different.

Everyone who gets saved overcomes by the blood of the Lamb, so there's no point there.

We have the Holy Spirit to engage Satan in battle here on earth....which is why we're encouraged to put on the full armor of God!