the uselessness of the once saved always saved debate

[JESUSKiDtommy]

GOD knows where HIS lines are for each human HE has created as to whether they are worthy of Heaven or Hell. HE does not need us yacking on about our opinions of certain verses that support one side or the other. In fact the absolute TRUTH of GOD is relative to how each one of us wants to perceive it, and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling is what we ARE CALLED to do... NOT working out everyone else's so we can (play GOD) which by the way does nothing but cause us to be lifted with self pride that we can't even see when we attempt to venture into judgements about our fellow human beings that belong only to HIM....

GOD alone is going to do whatever HE alone chooses to do with each of us when we pass from this world...... WHAT WE ARE CALLED TO DO is to be like CHRIST and show HIS LOVE to everyone we encounter, and it is my opinion that such arguments are vain and utterly useless in furtherance or promotion of the Kingdom of GOD..... AKA in a nutshell stop worrying about something that has no eternal bearing on your own judgement, and start worrying about the things that do..... which primarily means GROWING IN HIS LOVE AND SHOWING IT TO THIS WORLD and remember that GOD does not need you helping HIM decide what should be done with another soul that HE has made, but HE does expect LOVE to be growing inside each of us to draw them to HIMSELF.

 

[RC1970]

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." ~ 2 Peter 1:10

 

[Tellastory]

GOD knows where HIS lines are for each human HE has created as to whether they are worthy of Heaven or Hell. HE does not need us yacking on about our opinions of certain verses that support one side or the other. In fact the absolute TRUTH of GOD is relative to how each one of us wants to perceive it, and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling is what we ARE CALLED to do... NOT working out everyone else's so we can (play GOD) which by the way does nothing but cause us to be lifted with self pride that we can't even see when we attempt to venture into judgements about our fellow human beings that belong only to HIM....

GOD alone is going to do whatever HE alone chooses to do with each of us when we pass from this world...... WHAT WE ARE CALLED TO DO is to be like CHRIST and show HIS LOVE to everyone we encounter, and it is my opinion that such arguments are vain and utterly useless in furtherance or promotion of the Kingdom of GOD..... AKA in a nutshell stop worrying about something that has no eternal bearing on your own judgement, and start worrying about the things that do..... which primarily means GROWING IN HIS LOVE AND SHOWING IT TO THIS WORLD and remember that GOD does not need you helping HIM decide what should be done with another soul that HE has made, but HE does expect LOVE to be growing inside each of us to draw them to HIMSELF.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Let us examine your reference in full in expounding on the boldened portion.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verse 13 explains how we work out our own salvation with fear & trembling because it is God working in us that enables us to follow Him & live as His which is why the just shall live by faith in the Son of God & all His promises to us.

That also means making commitments & promises where men can boast in the flesh by, is not working out your salvation with fear & trembling when tacking on filthy rags of righteousness gained under the law by keeping those promises & commitments.

Hebrews 11:6 Galatians 5:1 Galatians 5:5 Philippians 1:6-11

 

[Tellastory]

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." ~ 2 Peter 1:10

To heed the calling is to keep your eyes on Jesus Christ, trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you abide in Him & His words as kept in the KJV Bible.

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

What is our confidence that we are not to cast away?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[Gordon Wright]

For some reason I'm hearing this in my head in Professor Frink's voice.

 

[Tellastory]

For some reason I'm hearing this in my head in Professor Frink's voice.

Any relations to Professor Charles Xavier? j/k

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

All i wanted to point out by starting this thread is that the base teachings of CHRIST lived out through dependant hearts that LOVE others will be what we are judged on....not theology or doctrine.... and if you want to point out verses about sound doctrine... i will accept that sound doctrine is living out what JESUS tells us to.... and us reaping what we sow.... So many today are exactly like the Scribes and Pharisees thinking they know oh so much without having yet swallowed their knat.

Those Scribes and Pharisees knew what hey knew from SCRIPTURE just like so many today....and JESUS was pointing out to them that they lacked LOVE aka any REAL CARING that would go out of it's way for others who were deemed unworthy.... hence the parable of the good Samaritan.... Hence HIM saying they were of their father the devil.... who does not care in the least for anyone.... and today it's so evident that many only care about people who are considered friends.... and SOMETIMES when we do go out of our way to LOVE on people we get caught up in the goodness of what we are doing and see it as being something that comes from ourselves.... aka self pride is so easy to slip in.... There are narrow places all around pertaining to our faith and finding them requires humbleness and a heart that is not seeking KNOWLEDGE of GOD....but seeking GOD HIMSELF to be alive in us.... and when HE is .......there are works that follow... and those works are done with CARING.... and caring is by degrees in all our hearts.... Just saying we need to seek HIM more.

 

[rnmomof7]

All i wanted to point out by starting this thread is that the base teachings of CHRIST lived out through dependant hearts that LOVE others will be what we are judged on....not theology or doctrine.... and if you want to point out verses about sound doctrine... i will accept that sound doctrine is living out what JESUS tells us to.... and us reaping what we sow.... So many today are exactly like the Scribes and Pharisees thinking they know oh so much without having yet swallowed their knat.

Those Scribes and Pharisees knew what hey knew from SCRIPTURE just like so many today....and JESUS was pointing out to them that they lacked LOVE aka any REAL CARING that would go out of it's way for others who were deemed unworthy.... hence the parable of the good Samaritan.... Hence HIM saying they were of their father the devil.... who does not care in the least for anyone.... and today it's so evident that many only care about people who are considered friends.... and SOMETIMES when we do go out of our way to LOVE on people we get caught up in the goodness of what we are doing and see it as being something that comes from ourselves.... aka self pride is so easy to slip in.... There are narrow places all around pertaining to our faith and finding them requires humbleness and a heart that is not seeking KNOWLEDGE of GOD....but seeking GOD HIMSELF to be alive in us.... and when HE is .......there are works that follow... and those works are done with CARING.... and caring is by degrees in all our hearts.... Just saying we need to seek HIM more.

So loving Buddhists and loving Muslims will be saved ?

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

Sorry but i am pretty sure my main point was that GOD means for us to be living out what HE teaches far more than HE means for us to take HIS WORD and judge others....... but just to amuse you I will say this.........the BOOK also states that a person who doesn't know to do good is beaten with few stripes while a person who does know is beaten with many.... and as CHRISTIANS we SHOULD KNOW because we have some very plain straightforward instructions set right in front of our eyes that would, should, and could lead me or you to go out with PASSION and try to win the very people you are talking about....

IF WE HAD ENOUGH LOVE TO DO SO!!!

but it seems that these arguments are much more aligned with what we are comfortable in doing

 

[Marvin Knox]

While it is true that we should make our case for correct doctrine with civility- and should witness with fervency - it is also true that doctrine is important to discuss and debate. We should not neglect these little discussions -, even if they do get a bit out of hand at times - to our shame.

If that were not true - God would not have given us the Word the way that He did. Neither would He have told us to -

"........................... reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:2-4

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

I didn't want an argument brother, and I wasn't downing TRUTH in any way. There is a balance point between Mercy/Grace and Fear/Respect and the teeter totter is far too much off center to the Mercy/Grace side these days. I believe the term used is "hypergrace".... I do very much however believe that people who are practicing the things JESUS tells us to do (LITERALLY LIVING EACH DAY WITH THE PURPOSE OF BEING A HELP AND BLESSING TO OTHERS)... and doing it from a heart of pure motive that gives all Honor and Glory to HIM, are much better equipped to know TRUTH than people who are engrossed in doctrine and knowledge without it showing up as CARING in their lives.

Neither one of us really know the others life, you have no idea of the LOVE that comes from my heart that is shown to both people I know and to needy strangers.... and I have no idea about yours.... but i do know this... we WILL be judged on the way we treat people. The same heart and attitude we deal out to others will be exactly what dictates the kind of Light, HE sheds on us. We are in effect setting ourselves up for our own judgement, and you are so correct to say that we do not need to leave off TRUTH as to forsake it, and run down the path of anything goes.... and not judging anything or anyone as wrong...... JESUS warning to not judge was to say that with what measure we meet will be measured to us again.... NOT that we should never have any judgements at all....... and I really am sorry... but as i look around at our Churches I don't see a lot of good samaritan LOVE... i see social clubs where JESUS words that say " If you Love those that Love you what reward do you have" need to ring out and be heard by people.

I recently moved to Knoxville from a small town in Alabama. There is an overpass in the city where the homeless hang out. There are missions nearby and some people doing some really good work to help some of the homeless get back on their feet and into housing... and i know some homeless don't even want housing... but if all the Churches here in this city would come together under the teachings of JESUS and put our resources together.... there wouldn't be anyone having to go unbathed, unfed, or even unhoused, unless that is what they chose to do.... and I will not argue with you about LOVE being the greatest need of the Church... because just like the Mercy/Grace and Fear/Love tetter totter there is a gross unbalance within our Churches that has Christians believing that what we know about The BIBLE is going to be of greater importance than us living out the basics it teaches... and i suppose that was what i was really trying to address...... GOD Bless

 

[Marvin Knox]

I didn't want an argument brother, and I wasn't downing TRUTH in any way. There is a balance point between Mercy/Grace and Fear/Respect and the teeter totter is far too much off center to the Mercy/Grace side these days. I believe the term used is "hypergrace".... I do very much however believe that people who are practicing the things JESUS tells us to do (LITERALLY LIVING EACH DAY WITH THE PURPOSE OF BEING A HELP AND BLESSING TO OTHERS)... and doing it from a heart of pure motive that gives all Honor and Glory to HIM, are much better equipped to know TRUTH than people who are engrossed in doctrine and knowledge without it showing up as CARING in their lives.

Neither one of us really know the others life, you have no idea of the LOVE that comes from my heart that is shown to both people I know and to needy strangers.... and I have no idea about yours.... but i do know this... we WILL be judged on the way we treat people. The same heart and attitude we deal out to others will be exactly what dictates the kind of Light, HE sheds on us. We are in effect setting ourselves up for our own judgement, and you are so correct to say that we do not need to leave off TRUTH as to forsake it, and run down the path of anything goes.... and not judging anything or anyone as wrong...... JESUS warning to not judge was to say that with what measure we meet will be measured to us again.... NOT that we should never have any judgements at all....... and I really am sorry... but as i look around at our Churches I don't see a lot of good samaritan LOVE... i see social clubs where JESUS words that say " If you Love those that Love you what reward do you have" need to ring out and be heard by people.

I recently moved to Knoxville from a small town in Alabama. There is an overpass in the city where the homeless hang out. There are missions nearby and some people doing some really good work to help some of the homeless get back on their feet and into housing... and i know some homeless don't even want housing... but if all the Churches here in this city would come together under the teachings of JESUS and put our resources together.... there wouldn't be anyone having to go unbathed, unfed, or even unhoused, unless that is what they chose to do.... and I will not argue with you about LOVE being the greatest need of the Church... because just like the Mercy/Grace and Fear/Love tetter totter there is a gross unbalance within our Churches that has Christians believing that what we know about The BIBLE is going to be of greater importance than us living out the basics it teaches... and i suppose that was what i was really trying to address...... GOD Bless

No argument here brother. Just conversation.

I was just replying to the statement in the title that having debates about eternal security are useless.
It seemed appropriate to address that charge.

I'm not sure that I would agree that the teeter totter leans toward the mercy/grace side Christianity wide.

I assume that by your stating that view as well as talking about our good works in relation to society that you are leaning toward the non-OSAS side of things.

Plenty of people on both sides of the eternal security issue live good lives. Plenty of people on both sides care for the poor and oppressed.

Christianity wide, most of the groups who do the lion's share of institutional care hold to the loss of salvation side of the debate.

That may well simply be a product of the fact that the majority of the Christian religion hold to non-eternal security theology.

Or - it is also likely to be because they believe that their salvation depends on it - whether they would state it that way or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." ~ 2 Peter 1:10

It's always best to quote the entire sentence. For context. Here is v.10 with v.11 - 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you

The NIV renders it "a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom".

Having an abundantly supplied entrance into the eternal kingdom isn't about getting in. Oh, no. It's about the reward of an abundant entrance or rich welcome as opposed to just entering.

There is nothing about gaining or keeping salvation in 2 Pet 1. It's all about "practicing these things" (v.5-8) to keep the believer from being ineffective and unproductive.

 

[nobdysfool]

It's always best to quote the entire sentence. For context. Here is v.10 with v.11 - 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you

The NIV renders it "a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom".

Having an abundantly supplied entrance into the eternal kingdom isn't about getting in. Oh, no. It's about the reward of an abundant entrance or rich welcome as opposed to just entering.

There is nothing about gaining or keeping salvation in 2 Pet 1. It's all about "practicing these things" (v.5-8) to keep the believer from being ineffective and unproductive.

Skipping right over the words "His calling and choosing you". Now who's ignoring things? Who did the calling, and Who did the choosing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Skipping right over the words "His calling and choosing you". Now who's ignoring things? Who did the calling, and Who did the choosing?

Nope. Didn't skilp over anything. God does the calling and God does the choosing.

The question is: Who does God choose and for what? The Calvinist answer cannot be found in Scripture. God chooses believers for service. That's what election is about.

We KNOW that God chooses believers because that is what Eph 1:4 clearly says: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."

We KNOW what Paul meant by "us" from Eph 1:19 - "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe." That is who God chooses. And the purpose for which he chooses believers is "that we would be holy and blameless". Some will argue that this phrase refers to regeneration, but we KNOW that it does not but rather is the purpose for which we (believers) have been chosen.

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

This verse shows that being blameless and holy is potential, not a guarantee. But that's what God chose believers to be. Eph 1:4

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

I still think we would do better to live out CHRIST teachings toward others with intense LOVE rather than to argue these points we argue... and yes to some extent that is what I myself am doing.... but I am not forgetting that LOVING PEOPLE is what I am called to do, and I do ask HIM for more LOVE, and for open doors to show it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I still think we would do better to live out CHRIST teachings toward others with intense LOVE rather than to argue these points we argue... and yes to some extent that is what I myself am doing.... but I am not forgetting that LOVING PEOPLE is what I am called to do, and I do ask HIM for more LOVE, and for open doors to show it.

It's not an either/or proposition.

One can be a serious loving servant of Christ and still contend for sound doctrine.

In fact Jesus told us that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments. One of those commandments is to contend for sound doctrine.

However, I will fully recognize that love seems to lacking here in the forum at times.

That's particularly true in the "soteriology" section when the debate becomes about Calvinism.

The lack of love and civility can be found coming from both sides of the discussion.

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

I haven't been in with the Calvinist here in this forum but had some experience in a discussion group on facebook that was ran by Calvinist. I guess i fall between the cracks on that issue too... not really viewing it as one side or the other..... i do realize that once you target your focus on the word ELECT it is easy to start counting yourself as such.... and the very principle defies what JESUS taught when HE spoke about the two men who came to the temple to pray.... one considered himself ELECT and the other was humbly asking for forgiveness....

 

[Marvin Knox]

I haven't been in with the Calvinist here in this forum but had some experience in a discussion group on facebook that was ran by Calvinist. I guess i fall between the cracks on that issue too... not really viewing it as one side or the other..... i do realize that once you target your focus on the word ELECT it is easy to start counting yourself as such.... and the very principle defies what JESUS taught when HE spoke about the two men who came to the temple to pray.... one considered himself ELECT and the other was humbly asking for forgiveness....

Not meaning in any way to be argumentative about it ---- just discussing ----

But the lesson of that story is IMO just the opposite of what you said.

The Reformed position would be that the one who humbly asked for forgiveness was proven by his attitude and actions to be among God's elect. The Holy Spirit had granted him repentance and created in him a new heart.

The other man proved by his attitude and actions that he was not in that group.

The so called "Calvinist" doctrine of "unconditional election" says that there is nothing in man's fallen nature or in the actions of fallen man that commends itself to God.

God's election is purely of grace (undeserved favor) and not because of anything that the recipient has done.

The man who thanked God that he was not like the filthy tax collector and attempted to commend himself to God - proved by his attitude and actions that he did not understand grace.

He thought that salvation was something you earn.

The tax collector, on the other hand, understood his need for grace to even approach God. The understanding of grace in his approach to God in prayer is the very thing that pleased God and allowed him to go down from the temple justified.

The other man went down unjustified because, as Paul says, he thought that salvation was by works.

Those two opposite concepts are at the heart of the so called "Arminian/Calvinist" discussion.

 

[JESUSKiDtommy]

Not meaning in any way to be argumentative about it ---- just discussing ----

But the lesson of that story is IMO just the opposite of what you said.

The Reformed position would be that the one who humbly asked for forgiveness was proven by his attitude and actions to be among God's elect. The Holy Spirit had granted him repentance and created in him a new heart.

The other man proved by his attitude and actions that he was not in that group.

The so called "Calvinist" doctrine of "unconditional election" says that there is nothing in man's fallen nature or in the actions of fallen man that commends itself to God.

God's election is purely of grace (undeserved favor) and not because of anything that the recipient has done.

The man who thanked God that he was not like the filthy tax collector and attempted to commend himself to God - proved by his attitude and actions that he did not understand grace.

He thought that salvation was something you earn.

The tax collector, on the other hand, understood his need for grace to even approach God. The understanding of grace in his approach to God in prayer is the very thing that pleased God and allowed him to go down from the temple justified.

The other man went down unjustified because, as Paul says, he thought that salvation was by works.

Those two opposite concepts are at the heart of the so called "Arminian/Calvinist" discussion.

You make your point very well, and I would agree that there is nothing good within us that makes us worthy for the HOLY SPIRIT to draw us to HIM through convicting our hearts, and bringing us to repentance.

If I understood the whole thing well enough there are levels of Calvinism (so to speak) and I really don't know how to describe in debate type terms where I personally stand, but I do have some beliefs on the subject, that make perfect sense to me.

The dimension we live in is so separated from the one GOD lives in, that I believe it is reasonable to think that GOD does know everything, (who will and who won't be saved) and HIS Sovereign Will is worked out on this earth. BUT i also believe that mankind is given free will to choose.

I would suppose that the first thing I might hear is that if GOD draws and works in a mans life, then that person is powerless to resist GODS WILL and that in the end the man will be do say act and think as GOD would have him do.

BUT it is my belief that GODS WILL is moved through our prayers. As in the lives of some people i know who were prayed for over a period of time before coming to know CHRIST. This mindset would also stand to reason as we look around in this world with all our distractions as Christians and realize that prayer for others is on the decline.... which hence causes our decline in seeing people saved.

And I am not saying we are devoid of seeing the SPIRIT convict people, but I am saying the one who will let, is being taken out of the way, through our own (GENERAL) falling away as Christians.

To try to put this into a nutshell, I don't think GOD dictates everything... if HE did and is just raising up puppets that are created for HIS amusement, then that would resemble touching yourself. (sorry for using that but it fits) because with HIM being LOVE.... and us being the created objects of HIS LOVE..... there is no way I can see that our LOVE for HIM would really be LOVE at all if we don't have a degree of free will to choose to LOVE HIM.

Also in the garden of eden, if GOD did not provide for man to have free will then GOD HIMSELF would be considered the author of sin. I am just saying yes GOD does move in this world to accomplish HIS Will, but no HE isn't a puppet master sitting with HIS puppet set and playing like a child in a sand box.

Just saying that in Heaven HIS perfect will is dictating everything that goes on, but when speaking of down here.... (by HIS own rules HE sets for HIMSELF).... HIS will is tied to what mankind is willing to do in the way of prayer. Hence HE tells us to pray "THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN"....

You also need to know that what I am trying to relate to you is somewhat of a dog thought.... it is me TRYING to express a viewpoint i have in my mind with words that are not exactly adequate for the job. I do not mean to sound like GOD is hindered from working out HIS will on this earth, but i do "think" that by the rules HE has set for HIMSELF, and the way HE has structured the whole thing, it would stand to reason that HE would desire the LOVE we have for HIM to be real, and while it comes from what HE first did for us, there would also be free will given to us to CHOOSE to LOVE HIM, or else it really isn't LOVE at all.

If a man gets on the internet today and purchases a slave woman (and yes you can literally do that today)... but if it happens and he takes full control of every facet of her life, and dictates to her how she will speak to him, what she will do in the area of keeping his house for him, and every move she makes in the bedroom to please him.... then any CARING in her heart for the man she is given to is forced and is certainly not able to be compared to a man who has a GODLY RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with a woman who is submissive in a GODLY way, and gives her LOVE to him in every way she can, because he LOVES her as CHRIST LOVES the Church, and that LOVE causes her to LOVE in return. Now I may be missing something as i was in the parable, but when a Calvinist is full on everything is entirely controlled by GOD, then it would seem that the line of thinking resembles the slave owner more than it resembles the GODLY HUSBAND.... and in the GODLY HUSBAND scenario the wife is given room to be who she is, as well as make her own decisions about the things she chooses to do in order to show HER LOVE for the man who LOVES her..... and i don't think it is much different within our Churches today... HIS LOVE is there just like it always has been, and there are countless thousands of people who are going to Church and thinking they are so OK with GOD when the TRUTH is they know nothing at all about HIS KIND OF LOVE..... "IF" we did then wouldn't people be coming to CHRIST through seeing HIS LOVE in action in our lives? and wouldn't it stand to reason that GOD is allowing some people to choose to sit on Church pews and "think" they are so OK with HIM because HE has given them free will.... and they choose to see themselves as being GODS CHILDREN when in fact they are like the devils and only believe HE is up there....

Is it not true that after a person is drawn to saving faith, it is within their power to choose to seek GOD, and that HE gives us instructions within HIS BOOK that we are to seek HIM?.... Why would a dictator who controls everything HIS creation thinks says and does have any reason to instruct us to seek, if HE is in control of it to the degree that Calvinist think HE is? Would it not be better to realize that HE has indeed given us a degree of being able to decide things for ourselves? If HE doesn't give us that room then all this debate and horse hockey that goes on within these forums is something HE has devised as some kind of twisted head game, that is being played with us as HIS creation.

Why would JESUS say that not many would find the straight and narrow way, if our choosing to look for it played no role? Why give instructions to us that we can choose to heed and allow ourselves to be adjusted and programed by, if we were created as arrows that are shot straight into a bullseye?..... The instructions are there for a reason... and the reason the whole BIBLE was written is because there are a few people in a lot of denominations who realize that what we think, say, and do in relation to our dealings with other people is the most important instruction that we are given..... and many people place importance on things that just really don't have any bearing or importance to the Kingdom... such as the very debate we are discussing. *smiles*

This all kinda goes back to my original point... we are not called to figure out everything about how GOD goes about HIS business.... we are called to LOVE OTHERS.... and it just might stand to reason that once we really get hold of LOVE and HE is alive in our hearts working through us.... and we have chosen to humble ourselves and not be lifted in pride for the good works that result from HIS LOVE being at work in us.....it is then and only then that the most important TRUTH of HIS WORD starts to bubble to the surface of our being, and it is then that our lives show a resemblance to CHRIST.