1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Check out the two new forums in our Outreach category. The Debate Non-Christian Religions forum and the Christian Apologetics forum. Please be sure to read the Statement of Purposes for each these forums before posting.
    Dismiss Notice

The Start of the Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Ludwig van Beethoven, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    Likes Received:
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  2. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    Likes Received:
    I agree. The seven heads of the beast are 7 lines of kings that conquered God's chosen people in Jerusalem.
  3. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest


    In Daniel 11:18, the original Hebrew word (cherpah, H2781) translated as "reproach" can be translated as "shame" (Daniel 12:2). In the case of Daniel 11:18, it can mean the shame of military defeat. So Daniel 11:18 can mean that after the Antichrist's precursor militarily defeats and occupies Israel and Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17) (see post 299), he will continue on across North Africa defeating other nations as well (that is, Libya and Tunisia), until he is defeated himself, possibly by Algeria. For just as Algeria has shown itself to be powerful, ruthless, and successful within its territory against the Arab Spring and against Al Qaeda, so Algeria could show itself to be powerful, ruthless, and successful within its territory against the Antichrist's precursor.

    In Daniel 11:16, the original Hebrew word (kalah, H3615) translated as "consumed" can be translated as to "cease" (Isaiah 10:25). So Daniel 11:16 can mean that the Antichrist's precursor will cause the current nation of Israel ("the pleasant land", compare Daniel 8:9) to cease its existence as a nation. For the current nation of Israel could be completely defeated and occupied by the Antichrist's precursor, and, along with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, be reinstituted as a new nation called "United Palestine".

    That's right, the Antichrist's precursor could be a future military ruler of Iraq (see post 299).

    It's possible that by the time of Dan. 11:40-45, which will be at the end of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:4-18), the U.S. could be included as part of the "king of the south" which will rebel against him. For the U.S., as well as other countries such as Russia, China, India, and Japan, may not ever come under the same level of control as the Bible lands will during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. But the U.S., as well as all other countries of the earth, will still come under the hegemony of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:7-8, Mt. 24:9).

    What could happen is that during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, the U.S. will be under complete martial law, still controlled by U.S. soldiers, but under the economic thumb of the Antichrist. For during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the U.S. government could go bankrupt and the U.S. dollar could become next to worthless in world markets, so that the U.S. will eventually become completely dependent on the Antichrist for its finances and trade.

    The way that the U.S. could be considered as being included as part of the "king of the south" in Dan. 11:40 is through the U.S.' current hegemony over Egypt, which is the king of the south in Dan. 11:5-17. Egypt could be completely defeated and occupied along with Israel by an Iraqi Baathist General in charge of a huge Iraqi Army (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). After this happens, the U.S. could take up the mantle of Egypt and Israel and attempt a counter-attack to liberate them from Baathist control. But this counter-attack could fail so miserably that the U.S. could forego any further attacks.

    It's at this point that the Antichrist could arise on the world stage (Dan. 11:21) and "cut" a peace treaty with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a,27a) ruling Jerusalem, after the Antichrist has defeated that Messiah and his followers (Dan. 11:22-23a). About seven years later, at the end of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8), not only could the U.S. as the "king of the south" try to attack the Antichrist (Dan. 11:40), but so could Russia, China, India, and Japan. For "tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many" (Dan. 11:44).

    The ships of Chittim (Dan. 11:30) could refer antitypically to ships of the huge U.S. Navy, which by that time in the future could have established a major U.S. naval base on Cyprus.

    Yes, in the sense that the first naval (i.e. amphibious) counter-attack by the U.S. against the Baathists could fail miserably. See the "the U.S. begins a counter-attack" part of post 319.

    Regarding the 2nd trumpet, Rev. 8:8a could refer to the collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Rev. 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Rev. 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Rev. 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami set up by the volcano's collapse into the ocean.

    Possibly, for after his defeat in Algeria, he could try to return posthaste to Iraq, only to disappear for good during a huge sandstorm in Libya.

    But he will not be the Antichrist. He will be the Antichrist's precursor, opening the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the vile person of Daniel 11:21-45. See post 300.
  4. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Revelation is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in post 302.

    That was addressed in post 224 and post 225.