The Start of the Tribulation

[vinsight4u]

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[interpreter]

The only difference is that John uses the apocalyptic genre of writing, which bible scholars and historians recognising as having similarities to parables and metaphors. You simply don't have the authority to push ENGLISH grammar rules for similie onto Jewish writing styles! English uses metaphor as well, and metaphors don't use "like" and "as" do they? Try and prove they do! Go ahead. Be my guest. Metaphors in English don't use the conventions you demand of Revelation, so why on earth do you require them in Hebrew? The reality is you just don't know what you're talking about.

You simply don't understand that as John wrote Revelation he was basically saying "In the kingdom of God, suffering is like..." Even though the words "is like" never turn up. That's what the imagery is about. That's what's happening.

Or "corrupt governments are like..."

Or "In the Last Days, the temptation to trust in wealth is like..."

You simply don't have an answer for this do you?

Consider it this way: Daniel saw various visions, and then the whacky imagery was explained by an angel. They were not LITERAL visions were they? They were highly symbolic visions of the empires that were coming. But John mixes the visions up! John takes Daniel and reinterprets it in a general genre of apocalyptic symbolism. He specifically merges Daniel's beasts together to make one! By doing that, for example, John is in effect saying he's not talking about a specific kingdom. It's ANY time governments or dictators rise up against God's people! This is simply how John uses the language.

I agree. The seven heads of the beast are 7 lines of kings that conquered God's chosen people in Jerusalem.

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 321:

Hi Bible2

Hi.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

What do you think about the meaning for the word "reproach" in Daniel 11:15-19?

In Daniel 11:18, the original Hebrew word (cherpah, H2781) translated as "reproach" can be translated as "shame" (Daniel 12:2). In the case of Daniel 11:18, it can mean the shame of military defeat. So Daniel 11:18 can mean that after the Antichrist's precursor militarily defeats and occupies Israel and Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17) (see post 299), he will continue on across North Africa defeating other nations as well (that is, Libya and Tunisia), until he is defeated himself, possibly by Algeria. For just as Algeria has shown itself to be powerful, ruthless, and successful within its territory against the Arab Spring and against Al Qaeda, so Algeria could show itself to be powerful, ruthless, and successful within its territory against the Antichrist's precursor.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

Also - the meaning of the word "consumed"?

In Daniel 11:16, the original Hebrew word (kalah, H3615) translated as "consumed" can be translated as to "cease" (Isaiah 10:25). So Daniel 11:16 can mean that the Antichrist's precursor will cause the current nation of Israel ("the pleasant land", compare Daniel 8:9) to cease its existence as a nation. For the current nation of Israel could be completely defeated and occupied by the Antichrist's precursor, and, along with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, be reinstituted as a new nation called "United Palestine".

vinsight4u said in post 321:

It sounds like Israel will be devastated by this Iraqi ruler.

That's right, the Antichrist's precursor could be a future military ruler of Iraq (see post 299).

vinsight4u said in post 321:

What else is frightening is where is the US?

It's possible that by the time of Dan. 11:40-45, which will be at the end of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:4-18), the U.S. could be included as part of the "king of the south" which will rebel against him. For the U.S., as well as other countries such as Russia, China, India, and Japan, may not ever come under the same level of control as the Bible lands will during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. But the U.S., as well as all other countries of the earth, will still come under the hegemony of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:7-8, Mt. 24:9).

What could happen is that during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, the U.S. will be under complete martial law, still controlled by U.S. soldiers, but under the economic thumb of the Antichrist. For during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the U.S. government could go bankrupt and the U.S. dollar could become next to worthless in world markets, so that the U.S. will eventually become completely dependent on the Antichrist for its finances and trade.

The way that the U.S. could be considered as being included as part of the "king of the south" in Dan. 11:40 is through the U.S.' current hegemony over Egypt, which is the king of the south in Dan. 11:5-17. Egypt could be completely defeated and occupied along with Israel by an Iraqi Baathist General in charge of a huge Iraqi Army (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). After this happens, the U.S. could take up the mantle of Egypt and Israel and attempt a counter-attack to liberate them from Baathist control. But this counter-attack could fail so miserably that the U.S. could forego any further attacks.

It's at this point that the Antichrist could arise on the world stage (Dan. 11:21) and "cut" a peace treaty with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a,27a) ruling Jerusalem, after the Antichrist has defeated that Messiah and his followers (Dan. 11:22-23a). About seven years later, at the end of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8), not only could the U.S. as the "king of the south" try to attack the Antichrist (Dan. 11:40), but so could Russia, China, India, and Japan. For "tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many" (Dan. 11:44).

vinsight4u said in post 321:

I see us later as among the ships of Chittim that cause the vile person to head back to his area.

The ships of Chittim (Dan. 11:30) could refer antitypically to ships of the huge U.S. Navy, which by that time in the future could have established a major U.S. naval base on Cyprus.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

But the ships of Chittim couldn't seem to get there for the first attack?

Yes, in the sense that the first naval (i.e. amphibious) counter-attack by the U.S. against the Baathists could fail miserably. See the "the U.S. begins a counter-attack" part of post 319.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

In the time of the 2nd trumpet 1/3 of the ships are destroyed.

Regarding the 2nd trumpet, Rev. 8:8a could refer to the collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Rev. 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Rev. 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Rev. 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami set up by the volcano's collapse into the ocean.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

The Iraqi ruler will not be found by verse 11:19, but I wonder does that mean he never shows up again?

Possibly, for after his defeat in Algeria, he could try to return posthaste to Iraq, only to disappear for good during a huge sandstorm in Libya.

vinsight4u said in post 321:

Some traits about him line right up with a vile person at verse 21.

But he will not be the Antichrist. He will be the Antichrist's precursor, opening the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the vile person of Daniel 11:21-45. See post 300.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 320:

That's what the imagery is about.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in post 302.

eclipsenow said in post 320:

He specifically merges Daniel's beasts together to make one!

That was addressed in post 224 and post 225.