The Start of the Tribulation

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

I know many people have spoken about the End of Days and the Return of the Lord, and some may have spoken about what I am about to say, but I have to say it anyway.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that there is no pre-trib rapture. We are going through the tribulation. And I pray that none of you will fall away from the faith when you find out your in the middle of it, not raptured. But if we are going through the tribulation we will need to be ready.

I did NOT come up with this information myself.

For the timing of the tribulation, please look here:

Daniels Timeline Home

I certainly hope you will read and understand this article, as important as it is.

 

[Interplanner]

The time of unequalled distress was in the 7th decade. Many, many believers have been in many, many wrenching situations for many different reasons since then.

Build yourselves up in grace, and then you will be able to rejoice in rejections and persecutions (Rom 5).

--Inter

 

[vinsight4u]

I/

 

[Truth7t7]

Ludwig van beetohven: I know many people have spoken about the End of Days and the Return of the Lord, and some may have spoken about what I am about to say, but I have to say it anyway.

I believe there are yet future signs to start the tribulation, the future command to rebuild the wall and street, Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and who is the "He" that must be revealed in Daniel 11:37?

Truth7t7

 

[Epoisses]

The time of unequalled distress was in the 7th decade.

Says who?!? You and your biased understanding. This is really starting to become comical.

So 70AD was worse than the flood of Noah's day when every living thing was wiped off the planet. This may not be an acceptable fact for some though, because evolution has destroyed the faith of so many as to the true history of planet earth.

What about the trumpets of Revelation where a third of the population is killed. You do realize that would be in the billions with a 'B". Much worse than 70AD!!!

What do you with the seven last plagues? Were they fulfilled in the first century?!? NO, they were not so 70AD was not the great tribulation. Jesus was asked 'What shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world'.
End of the world not the end of Judaism. It just so happens that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple will be similar to the final destruction of Babylon (Jerusalem) and the antichrist's idolatrous temple.

 

[Truth7t7]

Says who?!? You and your biased understanding. This is really starting to become comical.

So 70AD was worse than the flood of Noah's day when every living thing was wiped off the planet. This may not be an acceptable fact for some though, because evolution has destroyed the faith of so many as to the true history of planet earth.

What about the trumpets of Revelation where a third of the population is killed. You do realize that would be in the billions with a 'B". Much worse than 70AD!!!

What do you with the seven last plagues? Were they fulfilled in the first century?!? NO, they were not so 70AD was not the great tribulation. Jesus was asked 'What shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world'.
End of the world not the end of Judaism. It just so happens that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple will be similar to the final destruction of Babylon (Jerusalem) and the antichrist's idolatrous temple.

I agree with your response, Preterism is a false teaching, once upon a time!

Truth7t7

 

[Interplanner]

You have a point. You could go to any number of places and times around the world and say 'this was worse than the 7th decade of Jerusalem.' However, everything has a context. Your same Jesus said 'if your hand offends you, cut it off' yet there are not many handless Christians and there is not a wave of criticism of Jesus that he was 'unscientific' for saying it that way.

Text without context is pretext. In the context of that decisive generation, on whom 'the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that is written' (Lk 21) was coming, the unequalled distress would be measured in the degree of senselessness. It did not need to happen. They could have become 'Pauls'--missionaries all over the world, but they chose to fight it out, taking OT prophecies literally as well as oracles and writings from their own time (as found in the Dead Sea scrolls). It is not a science-lab statement; it has to do with what Israel knew or should have known. It has to do with what they were warned about by Christ and the apostles.

Now, if you have a question about whether Mt 24 & //s have to do with 1st cent. Judea, it is simply a matter of ordinary reading of the passage. There is nothing about it that would jump to the distant future; you don't give vital, vivid warnings to people that are 3000 years away without telling them it is 3000 years away and so it doesn't matter now. It did matter in their now.

I am a NT backgrounds scholar, and most of the work that is done on these things is exactly this: what was Mt 24 & //s saying about the 'great revolt' of 66+ and why and who did it impact? The 'echo' or 'feedback' of it comes from understanding Josephus, and the scrolls mentioned above.

A great example was mentioned somewhere here yesterday. (I don't have my materials out because I write in other areas these days, but my MCS was in this back in the day). General Gallus had circled Jerusalem in 66 but his supply line was interrupted. He had to back up and 'come again' to sustain siege. His withdrawal allowed many Christian believers in Jerusalem the opportunity to get out and they went to Pella across the Jordan. Obviously you can't flee from a city that is surrounded. However, Gallus was never to come back because while he was at the coast in Caesarea, word came that Emperor Galba was murdered which near split the Roman government into east and west, which is further indication why we hear that there were rumors of war and 'nation against nation.' Indeed the whole concern of the eastern Mediterranean to Rome was that it might become an Assyrian naval base. 'Kingdom against kingdom.'

To summarize what I think is a solid position:
*the warnings of Jesus were clearly about the following generation
*the end of the world was expected 'immediately after' the destruction of Jerusalem, with the allowance that only the Father knew
*it did not end
*2 Peter 3 expresses the apostles expansion on 'only the Father knows' by showing that He wants many to be saved, and so there really is no delay in the return

--Inter

 

[Interplanner]

To Vinsight,
the 7 things which come along with Messiah are redemptive. To finish transgression is not to end what a godless invader is doing. It is the salvation of Messiah, who was also 'cut off but not for himself'--a sort of miniature Is. 53.

--Inter

 

[Interplanner]

To Epoises,
re things in Rev:
As you may know the 'fixing' of things in Rev is a very inexact science. It is a vision, it overlaps, it is not didactic as Mt 24 & //s or 2 Pet 3 or I Cor 15 are. I don't know why a person would start there, or why it would matter to 'solve for x' about everything there. There is an enormous debate about dating. You must have read something at sometime by Adams or Gentry, which was a Ph.D. dissertation called WHEN JERUSALEM FELL. Pastor J Bray had a number of works out, the most complete of which was MATTHEW 24 FULFILLED. It is not comical in the least once their reasons are observed.

Overall, the approach of trying to solve every single puzzle of it is much more like certain sects of Judaism at the time of Christ (because the 490 years were ending); there is nothing of the sort in the apostles teaching.

--Inter

 

[Interplanner]

Modern futurist prophecy teachers think that every single piece of OT prophecy can and must be decoded (it certainly appears that would be the right term!). Jesus, on the other hand, refered to Dan 9 just once and made it perfectly clear that it took place in the expected 1st cent. Judean setting, because the 490 years were nearly ended.

--Inter

 

[Biblewriter]

Modern futurist prophecy teachers think that every single piece of OT prophecy can and must be decoded (it certainly appears that would be the right term!). Jesus, on the other hand, refered to Dan 9 just once and made it perfectly clear that it took place in the expected 1st cent. Judean setting, because the 490 years were nearly ended.

--Inter

We do not "decode" OT prophecy. We believe it, just like we believe the rest of the Bible. Preterists, whether partial or complete are the ones who attempt to "decode" OT prophecy by claiming it does not really mean what it explicitly says.

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

I believe there are yet future signs to start the tribulation, the future command to rebuild the wall and street, Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and who is the "He" that must be revealed in Daniel 11:37?

Jerusalem being surrounded by armies is getting really close. Look at all the fighting in the Middle East.

As for the "he" that you mentioned, he is probably the Antichrist. You remember Revelation 17:10

"They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come; But when he does come, he will remain for a little while."

He goes on to say that the beast was the eighth and was of the seven. These eight kings go together somehow. I'm not going to say the name because it would be slanderous to call anyone the Antichrist, but look at this...

Rulers_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire

Notice that there are seven emperors with the same name.

Five have fallen:Charlemagne (known as Charles the Great)
Charles II
Charles III
Charles IV
Charles V

One is:
Charles VI

And on is yet to come:
Charles VII

And when he comes he must remain for a short while. Charles VII reigned for only 3 years. I'm not making this stuff up. Look at the list.

Now you put the pieces together.

 

[Epoisses]

I am a NT backgrounds scholar,

--Inter

So what's your understanding of the seven last plagues?

You never answerd that. The fifth plague is poured out on the seat or 'throne' of the beast and I'd be willing to wager that the seat or capital of the beast is Jerusalem which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt and Babylon.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

So what's your understanding of the seven last plagues?

You never answerd that. The fifth plague is poured out on the seat or 'throne' of the beast and I'd be willing to wager that the seat or capital of the beast is Jerusalem which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt and Babylon.

I don't mean to correct you, but I think you meant to ask what his " mis-understanding" of the the seven plagues is.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ludwig van beetoven: And on is yet to come:
Charles VII

And when he comes he must remain for a short while. Charles VII reigned for only 3 years. I'm not making this stuff up. Look at the list.

Now you put the pieces together.

I think Jerusalem is the harlot/woman that sits on seven mountains as seen in Revelation 17:9, I believe the future antichrist will be of Jewish/Hebrew decent, and the ten horned beast of Rev 13:1 is the ten lost tribes, the deadly wound was healed in 1948, and these kings that have no kingdom as of yet, will be made kings with the beast, establishing old testament law to a current liberal Jerusalem/Israel.

Truth777

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

I think Jerusalem is the harlot/woman that sits on seven mountains as seen in Revelation 17:9, I believe the future antichrist will be of Jewish/Hebrew decent, and the ten horned beast of Rev 13:1 is the ten lost tribes, the deadly wound was healed in 1948, and these kings that have no kingdom as of yet, will be made kings with the beast, establishing old testament law to a current liberal Jerusalem/Israel.

Truth777

I think the woman might not be so much Jerusalem as it is the "Church".

Interesting that you mention the year 1948. There is a political figure alive today who was born that same year, and his name is the same as what I have listed above.

 

[ebedmelech]

I think the woman might not be so much Jerusalem as it is the "Church".

Interesting that you mention the year 1948. There is a political figure alive today who was born that same year, and his name is the same as what I have listed above.

I have to say this is Israel/Jerusalem! One of Gods first allusions a country "playing the harlot", is given in Deuteronomy 31:16. It is Israel

Furthermore, as one reads Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Micah, and Nahum...Israel/Jerusalem is called a harlot so many times one cannot deny it is them.

A striking allusion is given in Jeremiah 3:1-3:
God says, “If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
2 “Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
3 “Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.

It is undoubtedly Israel/Jerusalem.

 

[interpreter]

The great tribulation was WW II. Hitler's Third Reich was the third head # 6 of the 666 trilogy.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

 

[Forge3]

All we can do is be faithful.

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

I have to say this is Israel/Jerusalem! One of Gods first allusions a country "playing the harlot", is given in Deuteronomy 31:16. It is Israel

Furthermore, as one reads Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Micah, and Nahum...Israel/Jerusalem is called a harlot so many times one cannot deny it is them.

A striking allusion is given in Jeremiah 3:1-3:
God says, “If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
2 “Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
3 “Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.

It is undoubtedly Israel/Jerusalem.

I see what your saying. It does seem to be Jerusalem, but in Revelation 17:18 it says "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." Does Jerusalem reign over the kings of the earth?