The seven feasts of Israel

[dfw69]

don't say that unless u are willing to teach it
and so far, for years, you avoid teaching it like the plague

I can guarantee you that we see differently on this matter

Lol

Let your lights shine... Don't hide it under the bed....

 

[zeke37]

When was there a wheat harvest gathered into his barns?

sorry bro, but if u had been following the conversation,
you'd know my answer to that already

when was the barley harvested in the manner you propose?

the festivals were certainly around harvest times
the events had a significant beginning,
and that was a pattern for them to follow, ordained from God
both as a reminder of what was,
and what is to come as a fulfillment of those events

so the first 3 Festivals are fulfilled in Him,
and in the exact same way, the 4th has been too...events.

 

[Choose Wisely]

u agree that the first three feasts are fulfilled in Christ.

who was the barley harvest fulfilled with, if it needs completion?

Christ fulfilled the feast of the the Firstfruits.....but the barley harvest has not happened yet. The dead in Christ will rise first........Jesus is the firstfruits of them who slept.

The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive church. They will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[zeke37]

Christ fulfilled the feast of the the Firstfruits.....but the barley harvest has not happened yet. The dead in Christ will rise first........Jesus is the firstfruits of them who slept.

im not saying your wrong, or right,
but why do u think that the dead have to rise for their to be a fulfillment of the feasts?

some of the dead saints already rose when He did, and are the firstfruits...
and we likewise through our Belief, are firstfruits too

The barley is the dead in Christ

NT says we are firstfruits, not the main harvest

and the wheat is the alive church. They will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

who ever gets gathered to Christ at His Coming, are firstfruits
not the harvest

even in Rev14, the gathering to Christ of the 144k is right before the harvests.

 

[Choose Wisely]

zeke37;62903803]

don't say that unless u are willing to teach it

It is he that seeks that finds.

and so far, for years, you avoid teaching it like the plague

Know anything about oysters?

I can guarantee you that we see differently on this matter

And that should be the only answer that is required. Think on that.

Take for example your cohort that claimed that men don't go to heaven and that was his proof that the core of the pre trib belief is a fallacy. So he attempts to use John 13 to prove that men don't go to heaven. When I provided the rest of the chapter that shows that men will go to heaven later, suddenly, IN HIS MIND, the verses weren't talking about heaven at all but about following Jesus to Jerusalem. AMAZING WHAT THE BLIND SEES.

The point being that the blind man does not want to see the truth, he only wants to see his religion. I could have posted many verses to prove him wrong....such as

Rev 5
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

But it was not necessary because no matter what truth is posted, he cannot see. He is not looking for the return of Christ as prophesied, but is a scoffer.

I could show you many, many things that are all around you, that you do not see. I could show many things that are in scripture, that would make you wonder how you missed it. But if you can't see the obvious when it is pointed out, such as the above scriptures, you are not ready for anything else.

See, your real problem is that you spiritualize scripture instead of believing what it says. Once you take that path, you cannot possibly see the truth...but instead can make the scriputure say what you want it to say. Your teachers have led you down the road to blindness, sorry, but that's the truth.

If you would like me to toss out a bone, I will be happy to prove what I am saying. You say that Christ only comes one time on the last day and that the rapture is on the last day. I could easily prove that wrong......but could you see it if I did? I don't think so. You will just spiritualize the truth away. Just say the word and I'll show you what I mean.

 

[zeke37]

zeke37;62903803]

It is he that seeks that finds.


Know anything about oysters?

yep....1 in 12,000 has a pearl....
interesting number....

what makes your oyster the one with the pearl?
if u'd simply say,
then this doesn't have to be the issue that makes you bury your talent

And that should be the only answer that is required. Think on that.

oh, i'm not asking for MY benefit...lol

Take for example your cohort that claimed that men don't go to heaven and that was his proof that the core of the pre trib belief is a fallacy.

so? I am not one of those, as you know.
so don't call that line of thought, mine....
stick with the things we are speaking about

The point being that the blind man does not want to see the truth, he only wants to see his religion. I could have posted many verses to prove him wrong....such as

Rev 5
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

But it was not necessary because no matter what truth is posted, he cannot see. He is not looking for the return of Christ as prophesied, but is a scoffer.

I could show you many, many things that are all around you, that you do not see. I could show many things that are in scripture, that would make you wonder how you missed it. But if you can't see the obvious when it is pointed out, such as the above scriptures, you are not ready for anything else.

See, your real problem is that you spiritualize scripture instead of believing what it says. Once you take that path, you cannot possibly see the truth...but instead can make the scriputure say what you want it to say. Your teachers have led you down the road to blindness, sorry, but that's the truth.

If you would like me to toss out a bone, I will be happy to prove what I am saying. You say that Christ only comes one time on the last day and that the rapture is on the last day. I could easily prove that wrong......but could you see it if I did? I don't think so. You will just spiritualize the truth away. Just say the word and I'll show you what I mean.

wow

first off, just because someone see's one rapture,
doesn't mean that they spiritualize a fictional pre trib one.

and second, you gotta lead a blind man to water...
you are not even pointing the way, let alone leading one to water

your just saying, go get water.

third, I glean lots from pre tribbers,
sometimes some of it even makes sense,
most times i glean obv proofs against pre trib,
that show other enlightening facts

 

[dfw69]

Christ fulfilled the feast of the the Firstfruits.....but the barley harvest has not happened yet. The dead in Christ will rise first........Jesus is the firstfruits of them who slept.

The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive church. They will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

I was thinking the same things...

If this is true....then when the dead rise on firstfruits, its possible that the risen dead in Christ will attempt to convince the believers that a resurrection has taken place....they witness on earth .... Like jesus did after his resurrection , appearing to his disciples during the count of the omer.....They appear on earth... Seeking to gather the Christians... Seeking to prepare them for the coming of Christ in the air....testifying and counting down the days to Christ soon appearing on Shavuot ...

 

[bibletruth469]

bibletruth469;62902717] After searching the scriptures, I believe that Gods elect people are everyone who is one of His, not just the Jewish people . Look at Matt24-22,24-31,mark13:22,col 3:12

No doubt, all believers can be considered elect. However, if we understand that the church is gone pre trib, the ELECT in Revelation would be referring to Israel.

Isaiah 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Since we know that the 144000 are of the 12 tribes and are the first fruits.........we know the harvest is Israel. If the firstfruits is pumkins, the harvest is pumkins. Simple enough.

What about the part in Matt 24 when Jesus gathers His elect from the 4 corners, isn't that the time frame of the 2nd rapture or am I misunderstaning you ? Also during that point, doesn't the elect speak about all peoples at the end of the trib?

I was thinking that there would be 1 pre- trib rapture at pettecost and one at Matt 24. That's when the last trump of God is blown and everyone at that time is gathered. The Pentecost one is the wheat harvest. Also, is the Matt 24 part of the grape harvest, where god judges and saves one part ( the 1st gleaning ) for the righteous?

 

[bibletruth469]

I as a futurist see the harvest as a finished redemption ...the promised fulfilled... When Jesus returns for us in the air... And takes us to his father ....in heaven... When the wheat is taken to his barn...our bodies changed like he is.... Full salvation not in part... Full revelation not in part... The promises fulfilled to the church of Jesus christ...with crowns on our heads ... Clothed in white garments...redeemed fully from the powers of this world

The harvest when we receive our glorified bodies is a finished work . I believe that we at that time become glorified like Jesus. We will come back to rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years.

 

[dfw69]

The harvest when we receive our glorified bodies is a finished work . I believe that we at that time become glorified like Jesus. We will come back to rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years.

Yes I agree ...but we will not return with him to earth for some time...time must pass .... But eventually we will return with Christ to earth

 

[Choose Wisely]

zeke37;62903923]

im not saying your wrong, or right,
but why do u think that the dead have to rise for their to be a fulfillment of the feasts?

For the harvest feast of Pentecost to be fulfilled, there must be a harvest

some of the dead saints already rose when He did, and are the firstfruits...
and we likewise through our Belief, are firstfruits too

We would not be first fruits, we would be the harvest.

NT says we are firstfruits, not the main harvest

Interesting. Can you provide the verses?
We are not the main harvest, but we are also not the first fruits. We are the early summer harvest.

who ever gets gathered to Christ at His Coming, are firstfruits
not the harvest

Well, that would make no sense. We are not the main harvest, but we are a harvest. And we are not the first fruits.

even in Rev14, the gathering to Christ of the 144k is right before the harvests.

Oh, now I see. You are changing the word to say we are the 144000 first fruits. But the word says that the first fruits are 12000 from each tribe. Try going by what the Bible says so you can understand the truth instead of making the Bible say what you want. The 144000 first fruits are 12000 from each tribe........so the harvest will be Israel.

 

[Choose Wisely]

zeke37;62904528]

yep....1 in 12,000 has a pearl....
interesting number....

Impressive. Now,what do you know about fig trees?

what makes your oyster the one with the pearl?

I searched through and opened 12000 to find it.

if u'd simply say,
then this doesn't have to be the issue that makes you bury your talent

If you believed the word of God and accepted what it says, instead of changing the meaning of words, then I would not have a casting issue.

oh, i'm not asking for MY benefit...lol

That's why he who seeks finds.

so? I am not one of those, as you know.
so don't call that line of thought, mine....
stick with the things we are speaking about

I thought that yall basically believed the same thing. I just thought he tossed around a little more pre trib is from the devil nonsense.

wow

first off, just because someone see's one rapture,
doesn't mean that they spiritualize a fictional pre trib one.

So, how many comings of Christ are left to come?

and second, you gotta lead a blind man to water...
you are not even pointing the way, let alone leading one to water

your just saying, go get water.

I have posted enough on this board where you should notice I take scripture for exactly what it says. I am not making up stuff and changing the meaning of words. It has been proven again, and again, and again and again that no matter how much proof is posted, minds are not going to change. You just saw Mr "men don't go to heaven" get proven he was wrong. But instead of opening his eyes.......he goes back and decides the verses that prove him wrong and the ones he was quoting were talking about following Jesus to Jerusalem and were not about men going to heaven.........WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR THE BLIND MAN TO SEE? He that seeks will find.
I just asked you if you wanted me to post some verses that prove what you believe is wrong............You did not respond. NOW WE BOTH KNOW.....that if I post some verses that without a doubt prove your view is wrong.......you will merely change the meaning of words. Suddenly, air becomes ground, clouds become people, together means seperate. You can make scripture say anything you want. That's I only pull out the sniper rifle every now and then........I don't waste the ammo.

third, I glean lots from pre tribbers,
sometimes some of it even makes sense,
most times i glean obv proofs against pre trib,
that show other enlightening facts

Well, the standard pre trib model does not stand up to scripture, and neither does the post trib. I've told you many times that proving that Jack and Jill went up the hill does not prove that Bill and Bev didn't go up the hill first. The things you think are proof.......are not proof. Your boat has lots of holes in it. I know, I used to stand in that boat, I see the holes.

 

[zeke37]

For the harvest feast of Pentecost to be fulfilled, there must be a harvest

but there is a harvest of what happened in Acts2.
u and I are proof

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
​

We would not be first fruits, we would be the harvest.

well, the bible call us firstfruits in a few ways,
obv relating us to the firstfruits offered to God

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
​

Interesting. Can you provide the verses?

sure, but I could tell you that;
"he who seeks shall find",
or talk about "oysters",
or say "the water's around somewhere"

but I don't wanna bury my talent.

the twelve tribes scattered abroad, represent the literal scattered tribes,
who, over time, have became known as other peoples (Christian nations)

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
​

We are not the main harvest, but we are also not the first fruits. We are the early summer harvest.

where? scripture?
I say we are firstfruits of the harvest,
the main harvest is the gentile nations

Well, that would make no sense. We are not the main harvest, but we are a harvest. And we are not the first fruits.

we see things differently, what can I say

Oh, now I see. You are changing the word to say we are the 144000 first fruits. But the word says that the first fruits are 12000 from each tribe. Try going by what the Bible says so you can understand the truth instead of making the Bible say what you want. The 144000 first fruits are 12000 from each tribe........so the harvest will be Israel.

actually, i'm interpreting the Word to show that the 144k are Christians
that come from ethnic Israel,
but not all of them are called Jews...most are not.

I understand that u don't accept this, and i'm ok with that

 

[bibletruth469]

In response to both of you, I hopefully have some input. I looked up in my concordance (1st fruits, barley and wheat ) and it seems to me that one must look at each context and the overall passage for interpretation . I only looked at the New Testament for right now . They are listed below :

1st fruits- 1 cor 15:20- But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become first fruits of them that slept , refers to Christ
1st fruits - 1 cor 15-23- But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Note:This scripture is one of the rapture chapters.
1st fruits- rev 14-4 , these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth . These were redeemed from among men being the 1st fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 1st 2 in corinthians refer to Christ
The rev one refers to the 1st fruits unto the Lamb.

Barley - John 6:13( Jesus feeds the 5000) therefore they gathered them together ,and filled 12 baskets with fragments of the 5 barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Note: interesting words in this story( gathered, fragments, filled, remained)

Rev 6:6- the barley is mentioned in the seal judgement.

Wheat- Mat 3:12- gather wheat into the barn
Wheat- Mat13:30- gather wheat into my barn ( very interesting passage ) Jesus says" let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn".

One old test passage is Ruth 2:23- read whole passage .the scripture is about the wheat and barley harvest.

In my conclusion , there must be a harvest ! Note: the whole book of Ruth is about the harvest- very prophetic . A must read!! I am going to be praying for Gods truth to be revealed to us and whoever else will read all this, through the Holy Spirit ( our ultimate teacher)!

 

[bibletruth469]

zeke37;62903923]
For the harvest feast of Pentecost to be fulfilled, there must be a harvest



We would not be first fruits, we would be the harvest.


Interesting. Can you provide the verses?
We are not the main harvest, but we are also not the first fruits. We are the early summer harvest.




Well, that would make no sense. We are not the main harvest, but we are a harvest. And we are not the first fruits.



Oh, now I see. You are changing the word to say we are the 144000 first fruits. But the word says that the first fruits are 12000 from each tribe. Try going by what the Bible says so you can understand the truth instead of making the Bible say what you want. The 144000 first fruits are 12000 from each tribe........so the harvest will be Israel.

The 144,000 are Jews that are sealed from the 12,000 tribes of Israel during the tribulation . They are a separate harvest and have nothing to do with the harvest of the church. They will be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a witness to the people on earth during the tribulation .

The church is taken up to heaven in rev 4( caught up) and not mentioned again until the end of revelation . Therefore, we must keep the 2 groups of people separate . I do believe that a person should not make Israel the church and the church Israel. This is called replacement theory . Scripture does not support it.

 

[bibletruth469]

but there is a harvest of what happened in Acts2.
u and I are proof
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


well, the bible call us firstfruits in a few ways,
obv relating us to the firstfruits offered to God
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

sure, but I could tell you that;
"he who seeks shall find",
or talk about "oysters",
or say "the water's around somewhere"

but I don't wanna bury my talent.

the twelve tribes scattered abroad, represent the literal scattered tribes,
who, over time, have became known as other peoples (Christian nations)
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

where? scripture?
I say we are firstfruits of the harvest,
the main harvest is the gentile nations


we see things differently, what can I say

actually, i'm interpreting the Word to show that the 144k are Christians
that come from ethnic Israel,
but not all of them are called Jews...most are not.

I understand that u don't accept this, and i'm ok with that

In acts 2, that pertains to Jesus leaving the earth and the Holy Spirit coming to each believer . I believe that it is partially fulfilled with the birth of the church. When the rapture of 1thes 4 happens , we as believers will be caught up (raptured) to heaven to be with Jesus again.

The grape harvest happens in Matthe 24. Where a part of the grape harvest is left( the righteous ). That's the time frame when Jesus comes to the 4 corners and collects His elect. These are the elect of the people who are left during the trib( Jew and gentile alike).

I believe that the barley and wheat harvest is separate then the grape. Look at the prophetic book of Ruth. Boez , the kinsmen redeemer takes Ruth as a gentile bride.( picture of Jesus and the church) it is all about the barley and wheat harvest.

 

[bibletruth469]

What about the part in Matt 24 when Jesus gathers His elect from the 4 corners, isn't that the time frame of the 2nd rapture or am I misunderstaning you ? Also during that point, doesn't the elect speak about all peoples at the end of the trib?

I was thinking that there would be 1 pre- trib rapture at pettecost and one at Matt 24. That's when the last trump of God is blown and everyone at that time is gathered. The Pentecost one is the wheat harvest. Also, is the Matt 24 part of the grape harvest, where god judges and saves one part ( the 1st gleaning ) for the righteous?

I believe the elect is Israel after the Church age is completed . Gods eyes will turn back to the nation of Israel. Daniels 69th week starts(another discussion )Question for choose wisely- what's the time frame for the rapture of 1 cort 15. I am starting to believe that thes 4 and that one are 2 different events. I do know timing of 1st one( trump of God) and the other one (last trump) . There is a difference .

 

[zeke37]

The 144,000 are Jews that are sealed from the 12,000 tribes of Israel during the tribulation .

nope..."jews" are not from all the tribes mentioned

when this was written, only Judah and Benjamin and a few scant levites called themselves jews.
there rest did not, because they did not live in Judah

they were the northern house (10 tribes) that was scattered a long time by the Assyrian

they did not return to Judah

then later, the house of Judah (with Ben and some Levites) was also taken captive and scattered
some of them returned and set up the 2nd temple for Christ's return

do u know about that split in ancient Israel, how they became the 2 houses of Israel,
called the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

well, Rev shows the two houses/stick joined as one


5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

They are a separate harvest and have nothing to do with the harvest of the church.

completely wrong interp
the "elect" is not part of the harvest, as u think
they are the firstfruits offering to God

the rest are the harvest..specifically the grape harvest...
some get harvested gently, some get harvested the rough way and go into the winepress

They will be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a witness to the people on earth during the tribulation .

well, the elect who will witness the truth to the world,
are Christians, sealed before the trib's 4 winds blow


personally, I completely reject the line of thinking you prescribe to.
I left that way of thinking years ago

The church is taken up to heaven in rev 4( caught up)

no, that's john

and not mentioned again until the end of revelation . Therefore, we must keep the 2 groups of people separate .

the church is mentioned many times in Rev after chapter 4.
she is the "saints" mentioned in Rev5:8, see Rev8:3-4 as well
and in Rev11:18
and become obvious that Rev13:7 speaks of Christians saints too
when you read verse 10
and thus Rev14:12 shows the same patience of the saints
Jesus is called King of Saints in Rev15

Rev16 has that same patience warning

Rev17-18 saints and prophets both,
even separated to show both OT and NT definitions for martyred saints

Rev19 is pretty strait forward that the fine linen wearing folks are saints
most of us agree this speaks of Christians

if you doubt this, see the following link
and look for yourself at all the usages of the word saint in the NT

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: saint

the church is also the following;

Rev1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
vv
v
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev2-3 individually define these 7 candlesticks/churches
and only 2 are not chastised by Christ
only Philadelphia and Smyrna

and ALL of them are told that that they are rewarded if they overcome

what is clear to me is that 5 of th 7 churches are apostate/fallen away/seduced

but 2 of the candlesticks still burn with Light during the 1260 days of Rev11

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

now, God defined this term "candlesticks" for is Himself
and only uses it after Rev1-2, one time,
so it MUST be important

a Minorah, fed oil from 2 olive trees/branches, one at each end,
but the 5 candlesticks in the middle, aren't lit
only the 2 candlesticks directly touching the olive trees/branches are lit


and of course, who else but Christians do and have the following;

Rev12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I do believe that a person should not make Israel the church and the church Israel. This is called replacement theory . Scripture does not support it.

scripture does not support dispensationalism

and personally, i'm not even talking about replacement theology.
i'm talking about 2 facts....

1...the grafting into Israel of the wild branch/gentiles
so there is no division that way anyway...once you are a part of God's family, through Christ
then you are a part of Israel

2...the fact that God does have promises to ALL Israel (all tribes, not just Jews)
and God scattered most all of the 12 tribes a long time ago, into the 4 corners of the world
(over time and migration, may historians and archeologists and myself,
believe they settled many of what have become the Christian nations of today's world)
and He said that He would cause them to have God dwell in their very hearts

who does that sound like to you?

 

[bibletruth469]

I as a futurist see the harvest as a finished redemption ...the promised fulfilled... When Jesus returns for us in the air... And takes us to his father ....in heaven... When the wheat is taken to his barn...our bodies changed like he is.... Full salvation not in part... Full revelation not in part... The promises fulfilled to the church of Jesus christ...with crowns on our heads ... Clothed in white garments...redeemed fully from the powers of this world

Amen I believe that also!

 

[bibletruth469]

Below are the responses to the comments:

In the book of revelation, there are several major viewpoints. I personally take the stance of a futurist, meaning that there are prophecies left to be filled in the future.

Rev 7 speaks of all the tribes of Israel. I believe that God knows the ethic background of the Jews from all over the earth. They have to be Jewish People when a person takes the scripture from a literal standpoint . I do not take this symbolically . Please look at a website called "got questions". It does contain my viewpoint , however you may find it interesting . Do a search on 144,000.

Rev 14:4 paraphrase " these were redeemed being the 1st fruits among men unto God and the Lamb. First of all, I believe that the 1st friuts during the rapture harvest is a different one than the 1st fruits in the tribulation period . I believe that the church will not be present during the tribulation . I know that some people will not agree with me and that's ok to have a different viewpoint. We are speaking about 2 different groups of people that are used in different ways.

Rev7:8-17- the great multitude - it speaks about the people who came out of the great tribulation and came to faith in Christ. Most likely they died as a marter for their faith. This is another group of people. These are different then the believers who are on the earth right now.

I also believe that we are talking about 2 totally different harvests . The harvest during the 1st fruits for the rapture is different than the harvest during the tribulation . I know there will be disagreements, however from the literal wording of the scripture , I believe this is true. This goes back to my statement that the 144,000 is a separate harvest.

Rev4" come up hither" I believe is a picture of the rapture. Yes, John is called up to the 3rd heaven to see what must take place after this.

Candlesticks are mentioned in 2 kings 4:10, mark4:21, heb 9:2 and rev 2. In rev, these stand fit the 7 churches. Seven stars- seven angels.

I do believe in dispensationalism which is the literal interpretation of scripture and that there is a distinction between Israel and the church.

Rom 7 : 17-24 however speaks about how the Gentiles were "grafted in" the nation of Israel was set aside, but there's a remenant. The Gentiles don't replace Israel, they merely partake of the root( I believe that the root stands for God. ) When God is finished with the church age, he will redirect His focus back on Israel. The Gentiles were grafted in because of Israel's unbelief . This in my opinion will happen after the rapture of the Chuch ( during Daniels 69 week, tribulation,) during that time, God will restore Isreal as a primary focus of His plan.