The Same Event

[AnticipateHisComing]

The return of Jesus and the resurrection of all will take place in a flash, not spread out over multiple days as stated in 1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

WHAT Happens in a flash? IT is Paul's rapture that happens in a flash. The dead are raised first, but one microsecond or so later, those alive and in Christ are changed. It may only take a picosecond for each event to happen. But you miss the details. Paul tells us HIS resurrection/rapture will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord - NOT the coming of Christ on the white horse. Agaiin you will MISS the truth for preconceived glasses. Old testament verses along with John in chapter 6 shows us the SIGNS for the Day begin at chapter 6. John ends that chapter with: "The day of His wrath has come." John wrote it, but you don't believe it. The rapture is the TRIGGER for the signs: the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. And that great earthquake is the first SIGN of the coming Day of the Lord. it will start SOON, not 7 years later.

There was a reason that I highlighted the 1 Cor 15 text in red: in a flash and at the last trumpet.
I thought you knew what the last trumpet meant.
I will use scripture, Jesus' own words instead of your conjecture to show that this means, the coming of the Son of Man on the last day.

Mat 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Further Jesus said the great tribulation will come before his coming in
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Here is the scripture that says the resurrection is on the last day.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

There is only one last day. It is the destruction of this world. In the next age there will be a new world. It will be eternal. In fact there will not be any days or nights or even the sun to measure days. So the coming of Jesus will literally be the last day.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 58:

John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7, LONG before Jesus comes on the white horse.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-2nd coming rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17 the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

iamlamad said in post 58:

There is no gathering in Rev. 19, except for the nations and the birds that will feast on the nations.

Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

iamlamad said in post 58:

Make no mistake, John shows us that the wedding and supper take place in heaven before Jesus descends.

In Revelation 19:14, the original Greek word (ouranos, G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the already immortally-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7) descending with Jesus from the sky (the first heaven), where the church had been raptured to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

iamlamad said in post 58:

Next, tells us WHERE God will find sheep for the judgment if the rapture takes place as Jesus descends.

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

 

[Bible2]

AnticipateHisComing said in post 60:

You have no authority to declare that Millennialism is Orthodox. It is not.

There are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

*******

AnticipateHisComing said in post 61:

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

In verses like John 6:39-40 and John 12:48 the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

 

[iamlamad]

Here in Revelation, a book filled with symbolism we have the use of the expression "first resurrection" that is not used anywhere else in scripture. It makes sense to search out a symbolic/spiritual meaning for it; and born again fits perfectly.



MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH!

You write the word so many times you start making them up.

What you promote is Millennialism. You have no authority to declare that Millennialism is Orthodox. It is not.
How would the numerous denominations of today even convene in a way to determine this?
Generally, I don't like to use this as an argument, but the majority of Christians do not hold to the Millennialism concept.

Don't lecture me, saying my arguments are outside of Orthodox. It is the majority view.

When I said "pale of Orthodoxy" I was referring to your false theory that "resurrection" means "born again" in Rev. 20. Let's visit Websters:

resurrection

in Christianity the Resurrection : the event told about in the Bible in which Jesus Christ returned to life after his death

the resurrection : the event told about in the Bible in which dead people will be brought back to life before the day of final judgment

This is what Resurrection has meant all through the church age, from the time Jesus rose from the dead. His resurrection was the firstfruits of bodily resurrection from mortality into immortality; from corruptible to incorruption.

This is EXACTLY what is meant in Rev. 20. God did not change dictionaries, so to speak. The first, or primary or chief resurrection will be for ALL saints, for ALL time being changed into a resurrection body, where their spirit, their soul and their body are all in agreement (no wars) to SERVE GOD, as the angels do.

All John did was at a word before resurrection. He did NOT change the meaning of "resurrection." What word did He add? It was the Greek word, "protos."

1. first in time or place
   
   1. in any succession of things or persons
2. first in rank
   
   1. influence, honour
   2. chief
   3. principal
3. first, at the first

So all John did was to further define this changing from a mortal body (perhaps at that time turned back to dust) into an immortal body. He is comparing this resurrection for the SAINTS with the resurrection of the damned. So this "first" resurrection will be the first in rank, the first in influence, the first in honor. Of the two resurrections (the saints and the damned) the "first" will be BY FAR the most honorable.

The truth is, what Paul told is would happen in 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and in 1 Cor. 15, HAS (past tense) taken place by Rev. 20:5 - but all three of these scriptures are speaking of the very same resurrection: from a mortal and corruptable body into an immortal and incorruptable body.

When John saw the saints seated on thrones, they were seated in their new resurrection bodies.

If you disagree, you can be wrong if you choose.

LAMAD

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

When I said "pale of Orthodoxy" I was referring to your false theory that "resurrection" means "born again" in Rev. 20. Let's visit Websters:

resurrection

in Christianity the Resurrection : the event told about in the Bible in which Jesus Christ returned to life after his death

the resurrection : the event told about in the Bible in which dead people will be brought back to life before the day of final judgment

This is what Resurrection has meant all through the church age, from the time Jesus rose from the dead. His resurrection was the firstfruits of bodily resurrection from mortality into immortality; from corruptible to incorruption.

This is EXACTLY what is meant in Rev. 20. God did not change dictionaries, so to speak. The first, or primary or chief resurrection will be for ALL saints, for ALL time being changed into a resurrection body, where their spirit, their soul and their body are all in agreement (no wars) to SERVE GOD, as the angels do.

So it is not OK for me to think of using an alternate definition of first, but it is OK for you and Bible2 to use a different definition of last, as in last day and last trumpet? My definition of first resurrection to be a spiritual resurrection/born again is the one taken by a majority of Christians.

All John did was at a word before resurrection. He did NOT change the meaning of "resurrection." What word did He add? It was the Greek word, "protos."

1. first in time or place
   
   1. in any succession of things or persons
2. first in rank
   
   1. influence, honour
   2. chief
   3. principal
3. first, at the first

So all John did was to further define this changing from a mortal body (perhaps at that time turned back to dust) into an immortal body. He is comparing this resurrection for the SAINTS with the resurrection of the damned. So this "first" resurrection will be the first in rank, the first in influence, the first in honor. Of the two resurrections (the saints and the damned) the "first" will be BY FAR the most honorable.

So you admit John was comparing the SAINTS with the DAMNED. Do I dare ask what separates the DAMNED from the SAINTS? Maybe something like the fact that the SAINTS have been born again which is the most important thing we can attain to here on earth. I think this fits into a definition of first, as in most important.

The truth is, what Paul told is would happen in 1 Thes. 4:16-17 and in 1 Cor. 15, HAS (past tense) taken place by Rev. 20:5 - but all three of these scriptures are speaking of the very same resurrection: from a mortal and corruptable body into an immortal and incorruptable body.

When John saw the saints seated on thrones, they were seated in their new resurrection bodies.

Conjecture on your part. For one that reads Rev 20 literally, you should understand that scripture says John saw SOULS, not bodies.

If you disagree, you can be wrong if you choose.

LAMAD

The Bible speaks the truth. You speak your opinion, which I and the majority find in error.

BTW, I am still waiting for your explanation of how what scripture says happens in a flash, at the last trumpet can be spread out over many days as I posited in post 61.

 

[iamlamad]

So it is not OK for me to think of using an alternate definition of first, but it is OK for you and Bible2 to use a different definition of last, as in last day and last trumpet? My definition of first resurrection to be a spiritual resurrection/born again is the one taken by a majority of Christians.

So you admit John was comparing the SAINTS with the DAMNED. Do I dare ask what separates the DAMNED from the SAINTS? Maybe something like the fact that the SAINTS have been born again which is the most important thing we can attain to here on earth. I think this fits into a definition of first, as in most important.

Of course you can ask. You are partially right. You see, ONLY the bride of those resurrected was born again. None of the Old Testament saints were born again. None of the 144,000 will be born again, for that door (of the born again road) will be closed at Paul's rapture. However, all of these mentioned will be a part of this first or most honorable resurrection. So what separates these two resurrections? Faith separates the two. For the church, we are born again with faith. For the Old testament saints, it will just like Abraham. Righteousness was credited to him because of his FAITH.

I don't think anyone changes the meaning of "last." However, we may disagree on the "day" part of "last day." However, any word like this must be qualified by its context, just like "the last trump." Will it be the very last trumpet ever to sound? Will God send angels to gather up all trumpets so there can never be another trumpet sound? No, that is not the meaning. It must be qualified: it will be the last of a SERIES." Many say, erroneously, that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation; the last in THAT series. They are wrong. It will, without a doubt, be the last of a different series: probably the series at the Feast of Trumpets. Did you know that the final, long trumpet blast that ENDS the Feast of Trumpets has long been called "The last trump?" This is what I have read.

Sorry, but your idea of Rev. 20 speaking of a spiritual resurrection simply does not fit the context. The whole context of Rev. 20 is a physical resurrection. What did John write? "But the rest of the dead lived not again..." He is writing of physical resurrection of those who had died physically and being raised physically into a new physical body.

Conjecture on your part. For one that reads Rev 20 literally, you should understand that scripture says John saw SOULS, not bodies.

You forget the first sentence: "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them..." WHO is sitting on these thrones? Well, John does not come right out and tell us. However, we KNOW that Jesus said the 12 disciples would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Could we guess that this verse is showing is at least the 12 disciples? Can we guess that it is probably the bride of Christ also seated as judges? What did the parable of the minas teach us? Luke wrote, "‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities." Would it then be a good guess to think these are the throne are the resurrected righteous, now placed in the positions of judges? of course I cannot be dogmatic here, because John did not tell us.

Perhaps John used the word "souls" here to show us that these were certainly dead, beheaded by the Beast. Is it possible this one group was not resurrected, when all the other righteous were? I doubt it. After all, Jesus said He would raise them up on "the last day."

The Bible speaks the truth. You speak your opinion, which I and the majority find in error.

I am not worried about you or anyone else thinking I am in error. I am only concerned that GOD find me teaching truth.

BTW, I am still waiting for your explanation of how what scripture says happens in a flash, at the last trumpet can be spread out over many days as I posited in post 61.

I already answered you, and you did not read it or did not believe it. Read it again:

"WHAT Happens in a flash? IT is Paul's rapture that happens in a flash. The dead are raised first, but one microsecond or so later, those alive and in Christ are changed. It may only take a picosecond for each event to happen. But you miss the details. Paul tells us HIS resurrection/rapture will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord - NOT the coming of Christ on the white horse."

Now PLEASE explain what you THINK I said was spread over many days. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul was talking ONLY about the dead in Christ. He was not writing of the Old Testament saints.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Note the WE? Who is the "we?" It is Paul and the Corinthian church; that is - born again people. Of course, when the Old Testament saints rise, they too will be raised in a moment; just a DIFFERENT moment. When the 144,000 are caught up, that too will be a different moment.


LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

AnticipateHisComing said in post 65:

My definition of first resurrection to be a spiritual resurrection/born again is the one taken by a majority of Christians.

While there is the figurative resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal in the sense of bodily (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the first resurrection will be the same, bodily type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Also, the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal/bodily because it won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church that will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a literal/bodily resurrection, just like Jesus' literal/bodily resurrection at his first coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39).

AnticipateHisComing said in post 65:

For one that reads Rev 20 literally, you should understand that scripture says John saw SOULS, not bodies.

Every time the word "souls" is used in the Bible it doesn't have to refer to dead people (Acts 27:37). For living people consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

AnticipateHisComing said in post 65:

BTW, I am still waiting for your explanation of how what scripture says happens in a flash, at the last trumpet can be spread out over many days as I posited in post 61.

While the 2nd coming and resurrection and rapture of the church won't be spread out over many days, neither will it all happen instantaneously. The only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (of the dead) and the changing (of the living) bodies of obedient believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky, and the world will mourn when it realizes that it is the true Jesus who is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ, who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth and their bodies will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 66:

None of the Old Testament saints were born again.

They are now, just as all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 66:

None of the 144,000 will be born again, for that door (of the born again road) will be closed at Paul's rapture.

The 144,000 either have been or will be born again, for they will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4). And so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into and he will receive an answer from God if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22) without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James was addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which was the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

iamlamad said in post 66:

I don't think anyone changes the meaning of "last." However, we may disagree on the "day" part of "last day." However, any word like this must be qualified by its context, just like "the last trump." Will it be the very last trumpet ever to sound? Will God send angels to gather up all trumpets so there can never be another trumpet sound? No, that is not the meaning. It must be qualified: it will be the last of a SERIES." Many say, erroneously, that it is the 7th trumpet of Revelation; the last in THAT series. They are wrong.

That's right.

Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.