The Same Event

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n2thelight

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I know we have alot of rapture topics on here,but I just had to start this one.....

Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are the same event

The following demonstrate very well that all three passages in the Bible that are referring to the second coming of Christ are precisely that. God never intended for His Word to be cryptic or some mountain of confusion where one or more passages are supposedly referring to the second coming and others to some supposed fictional secret rapture.

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Now compare Matthew 24 with the above events using 1 Thessalonians since some erroneously teach that Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Jesus, which they teach is a different event to the above chapters which they say refers to a secret rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order. There are not two different aspects of the return of Jesus. There is only one second coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

Matthew 24
Jesus coming ,Trumpet,angels gather saints,coming in the clouds

1Thess 4
Jesus coming,Trumpet,dead saints raised,coming in clouds

1Corinth15
At His coming,Last trump,dead saints raised......

Christ only returns once more,which is the second coming.......
 

bibletruth469

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The rapture and the second coming are different events and it can be shown throughout the bible, but let us just compare Matthew 24 with the rapture verses of 1 cor 15 and 1 thess 4. Below, I will first list all the rapture verses and then in the next paragraph, i will list the 2nd coming verses.

Rapture:
1) Christ comes in the air -1thess 4:16-17
2) Christ comes for His saints- 1 thess 4:16-17
3) Believers depart the earth -1 thess 4:16-17
4) Christ claims his bride
5) Christ gathers His own -1 thess 4:16-17
6)Christ comes to reward- 1 thess 4:17
7) Not in the Old Testament 1 cor 15:51
8)THere are no signs.
9) It is a time of blessing and comfort -1 thess 4:17-18
10) involves believers only - 1 cor 15:51-52, 1 thess 4:13-18

The return of Christ or second coming:
1) Christ comes to the earth- zech 14:4
2) Christ comes with His saints - 1 thess 3:13, jude 1:14
3) Unbelievers are taken away - Matt 24;37-41
4) Christ comes with his bride
5) Angels gather the elect - Matt 24;31
6) Christ comes to judge - Matt 25: 31-46
7) predicted in the Old Testament
8) Many signs predicted
9) it is a time of destruction and judgement - 2 thess 2:8-12
10) Involves Israel and the Gentile nations - matt 14:1-25:46

One can clearly see that the 2 events are different.
Note: this chart is derived from mark Hitchcock's book ' THe End'. It is an excellent book for any serious student of bible prophecy.
 
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ebedmelech

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Well done n2thelight...:thumbsup:

I can remember just starting out in the faith as my pastor was teaching the "pre-trib rapture".

As I was reading and comparing I would to say to myself these are the same event.

I think the attractiveness of the pre-trib rapture is escaping "the great tribulation" for most. They want to believe they will be gone before God releases Satan.

Is going to be a rude awakening...because as Satan is released the church will encounter serious spiritual warfare!
 
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bibletruth469

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ebedmelech said:
Well done n2thelight...:thumbsup: I can remember just starting out in the faith as my pastor was teaching the "pre-trib rapture". As I was reading and comparing I would to say to myself these are the same event. I think the attractiveness of the pre-trib rapture is escaping "the great tribulation" for most. They want to believe they will be gone before God releases Satan. Is going to be a rude awakening...because as Satan is released the church will encounter serious spiritual warfare!

The church will not be on earth during the tribulation . You mentioned that satan will be released . He is not bound yet .
 
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bibletruth469

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bibletruth469 said:
The church will not be on earth during the tribulation . You mentioned that satan will be released . He is not bound yet .

The Holy Spirit resides within every believer and because of that fact , satan can not have complete control, but he will not be bound until he is thrown into the abyss after the tribulation .
 
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Well done n2thelight...:thumbsup:

I can remember just starting out in the faith as my pastor was teaching the "pre-trib rapture".

As I was reading and comparing I would to say to myself these are the same event.

I think the attractiveness of the pre-trib rapture is escaping "the great tribulation" for most. They want to believe they will be gone before God releases Satan.

Is going to be a rude awakening...because as Satan is released the church will encounter serious spiritual warfare!

Looks to me like you've departed from the faith(assuming that you were IN the faith) and are now teaching doctrines of devils,ebed. Im sure we are warned about that somewhere in the Bible. Bit like your 'Jesus is ruling now' heresy and the time of Jacobs trouble has been and gone in 70ad.

The KJV Bible does indeed teach a pre trib rapture of the church.
 
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ebedmelech

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Looks to me like you've departed from the faith(assuming that you were IN the faith) and are now teaching doctrines of devils,ebed. Im sure we are warned about that somewhere in the Bible. Bit like your 'Jesus is ruling now' heresy and the time of Jacobs trouble has been and gone in 70ad.

The KJV Bible does indeed teach a pre trib rapture of the church.
But that's what it *looks* like to you. I will stand on what I said and my view.

"The Faith" is not what one believes about eschatology. "The Faith" is Jesus Christ and Him crucified...so perhaps you need to understand that first.

I will stand on the "time of Jacob's trouble" as 70 AD because Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple also, without "one stone remaining upon another, and Israel was dispersed. Just as Jesus said.

Point to another time after that...and perhaps I'm listening. The church is the temple now...wheter Israel builds a temple or not, the time of sacrifice and offering ended with Jesus on the cross. That is affirmed by scripture and history.

The time we are in now is that of Matthew 25...not Matthew 24.
 
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ebedmelech

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The church will not be on earth during the tribulation . You mentioned that satan will be released . He is not bound yet .
Satan is most certainly bound. I can't help that you don't understand that. As you read the gospels watch what Jesus does in every encounter with Satan...and tell me he is not bound. Also remeber what Jesus told the apostles..."Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."...you just have to grasp what Jesus says. The church is the binding force as we are kings and priest of God reigning with our Lord as HEAD!

As for the rapture you believe...you simply CANNOT prove that from scripture. You can say what you have been taught from scripture.

Since we've already been over this...I'll say let's watch and see...and go on about the Lord's business.
 
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ebed,

"The Faith" is not what one believes about eschatology. "The Faith" is Jesus Christ and Him crucified...so perhaps you need to understand that first.
James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


I will stand on the "time of Jacob's trouble" as 70 AD because Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple also, without "one stone remaining upon another, and Israel was dispersed. Just as Jesus said.
I have yet to study the period of 70ad, but correct me if Im wrong.....where was the man of sin or son of perdition and false prophet who causeth everyone to worship an image of the beast?(Rev 13:15) Where was the mark of the beast(Rev 13:16-17), the demonic locusts(Rev 9:3-11) and the 200 million horseman army? (Rev 9:16-19)
And if the period of Jacobs(israel) trouble was 70ad, the 1000 year literal reign of the Lord Jesus in Jerusalem sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:30-33) must have gone unnoticed. We would also be living in eternity now with the new Jerusalem dropped down from heaven. (Rev 21:2-3)

I think you need to have a re-read, ebed.

Point to another time after that...and perhaps I'm listening. The church is the temple now
Thats correct the Church is the temple of God in this dispensation (1Cor 3:16)

...wheter Israel builds a temple or not
But there will be a temple of God during the time of Jacobs(Israel)Trouble as prophesied in the KJV Bible

Revelation 11:1(KJV) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

So we have 2 definitions for temples of God, a Christian and a building. Either God has made a mistake or the Church(the temple of God in the Church age) will indeed be raptured before the great tribulation. And the temple of God being referred to here is the 3rd Jewish temple yet to be built in which the sacrifices will take place.

the time of sacrifice and offering ended with Jesus on the cross. That is affirmed by scripture and history.
But by your own 'logic' ebed, the blood sacrifices would have had to been re-introduced during your 70ad great tribulation period as the Beast stops the Jewish sacrifices half way through a 7 year peace treaty(Dan 9:27,Mat 24:15, 2Thes 2:3-4) The book of Daniel runs parallel to the book of Rev.

We can conclude from scripture that the time of Jacobs(israel)Trouble or Daniels 70th week is yet to happen and the Church is taken up before the Judgements as pictured in Rev 4:1-8.

Enoch also pictured the Church and was 'took' before Judgment (Gen 5:24, Mat 24:37)

We see a patturn of Gods nature here throughout scripture. Will God also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (Gen 18:23-33)

The time we are in now is that of Matthew 25...not Matthew 24.
eh? So we are now living in the kingdom of heaven? What a let down. I thought Jesus promised a glorious sinless reign with kings and priests with fountains of living water, eden restored and the Jews inheriting the promised land from the abrahamic covenant.
 
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ebedmelech

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ebed,

James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
So...your point? You are hardly in a place to judge my or anyone elses salvation. Ensure your own.

I have yet to study the period of 70ad, but correct me if Im wrong.....where was the man of sin or son of perdition and false prophet who causeth everyone to worship an image of the beast?(Rev 13:15) Where was the mark of the beast(Rev 13:16-17), the demonic locusts(Rev 9:3-11) and the 200 million horseman army? (Rev 9:16-19)
And if the period of Jacobs(israel) trouble was 70ad, the 1000 year literal reign of the Lord Jesus in Jerusalem sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:30-33) must have gone unnoticed. We would also be living in eternity now with the new Jerusalem dropped down from heaven. (Rev 21:2-3)

I think you need to have a re-read, ebed.
I don't...let's take each point you make:

Worship the beast or his image - Idolatry! The worship of Caesar was expected and demanded by all. Caesar represented the beast, who was Rome and images of Caesar were worshiped. Also realize that the mark of the beast is symbolism of how one thinks (the forehead) and what one does (the hand). It goes back to the Lord telling Israel "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead" (Deuteronomy 6:8). The mark of the beast was the opposite. We as Christians can be identified by how we think (forehead), and what we do (hand). This is what John wanted those Christians as well as us to understand.

As for Luke did not Peter make it clear that Christ is now on the throne of David? Have you read Acts 2:29-36?
Thats correct the Church is the temple of God in this dispensation (1Cor 3:16)

But there will be a temple of God during the time of Jacobs(Israel)Trouble as prophesied in the KJV Bible
Where? Please don't tell me Ezekiel 40-48.
Revelation 11:1(KJV) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
So why are you trying to read another temple into this after the apostles have taught the church is the temple? They NEVER EVER speak of the Jerusalem temple being anything. If they do...show me where.

Paul says Jews and Gentiles are being "built into a holy temple in the Lord."

Peter says we are "living stines being built into a spiritual house"

They simply don't recognize a Jerusalem temple because they know God departed that temple. Why do you think the veil to the holy of holies ws torn in half when Jesus died?
So we have 2 definitions for temples of God, a Christian and a building. Either God has made a mistake or the Church(the temple of God in the Church age) will indeed be raptured before the great tribulation. And the temple of God being referred to here is the 3rd Jewish temple yet to be built in which the sacrifices will take place.
No. You have two definitions...the apostles have only one! They wrote of only one temple, and it was always the church.
But by your own 'logic' ebed, the blood sacrifices would have had to been re-introduced during your 70ad great tribulation period as the Beast stops the Jewish sacrifices half way through a 7 year peace treaty(Dan 9:27,Mat 24:15, 2Thes 2:3-4) The book of Daniel runs parallel to the book of Rev.
No. What you have is blinded Jews who rejected Jesus offering sacrifices that mean nothing. Have you read Hebrews 10?
We can conclude from scripture that the time of Jacobs(israel)Trouble or Daniels 70th week is yet to happen and the Church is taken up before the Judgements as pictured in Rev 4:1-8.
So when the angel says to John come up here, you're taught that's a rapture? On what basis is that? John is caught up in the spirit to continue his revelation, but you call that a rapture?
Enoch also pictured the Church and was 'took' before Judgment (Gen 5:24, Mat 24:37)
Nothing says that but dispensationalism. No where is Enoch said to prefigure the church in rapture. Furthermore pay close attention what Jesus is saying there in Matthew 24:37...those taken are taken in judgement. It even says so.
We see a patturn of Gods nature here throughout scripture. Will God also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (Gen 18:23-33)
That's right...and in every case God takes his people then brings judgment, just like the true rapture on the last day. Now listen to Jesus John 5:28, 29:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


What? So we are now living in the kingdom of heaven now are we? What a let down. I thought Jesus promised a glorious sinless reign with kings and priests with fountains of living water, eden restored and the Jews inheriting the promised land from the abrahamic covenant.
Notice that in the two parables of Matthew 25:

*In one the bridegroom delays his coming.

*In the other the man goes on a long journey.

These both are speaking of the period of time Christ is in heaven until he returns. The church is doing His work on earth.

Notice that Jesus picks that up at Matthew 25:31
 
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n2thelight

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The church will not be on earth during the tribulation . You mentioned that satan will be released . He is not bound yet .


Again I ask,what part of after the tribulation do people not see?

Let's do Matthew

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Simple english,what's the subject of this verse?

Why would Christ sit there and tell us everything that will, and must happen before He returns,if we are not going to be here?

And of all the things He said,how do you all miss the following

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God.

What you all suggest is that Christ comes to get the Church,before this event,I don't mean any harm,but that's straight foolishness.....

Where is the rapture in this chapter??????????????

The question from the beggining was

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Not one of these events that Christ just explained throughout this chapter can happen to the Church,if this fable of a rapture were to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
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bibletruth469

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n2thelight said:
Again I ask,what part of after the tribulation do people not see? Let's do Matthew Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Simple english,what's the subject of this verse? Why would Christ sit there and tell us everything that will, and must happen before He returns,if we are not going to be here? And of all the things He said,how do you all miss the following Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God. What you all suggest is that Christ comes to get the Church,before this event,I don't mean any harm,but that's straight foolishness..... Where is the rapture in this chapter?????????????? The question from the beggining was Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Not one of these events that Christ just explained throughout this chapter can happen to the Church,if this fable of a rapture were to be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, Jesus is talking to Israel , not the church in Matt 24.

This is not the same trumpet as the 7th trumpet in revelation with the trumpet judgements .This trumpet at the second coming does gather the elect ( believing Israel and believing Gentiles ) and they will be able to enter into the mellinimum kingdom, while the non believers will be cast of the kingdom( sheep and goat judgement).

Yes, Christ comes approximately seven years before this event. ( Daniel ' s 70th week). The church will not be part of the tribulation. The scripture plainly says ' comfort one another with these words'. As a side note, we are looking for Jesus Christ now, not the antichrist. We will be kept from the hour of trial to try those on the earth. Rev 3

The rapture is not a fable like you mention. It is a event listed in the bible as truth.
 
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n2thelight

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First of all, Jesus is talking to Israel , not the church in Matt 24.

This is not the same trumpet as the 7th trumpet in revelation with the trumpet judgements .This trumpet at the second coming does gather the elect ( believing Israel and believing Gentiles ) and they will be able to enter into the mellinimum kingdom, while the non believers will be cast of the kingdom( sheep and goat judgement).

Yes, Christ comes approximately seven years before this event. ( Daniel ' s 70th week). The church will not be part of the tribulation. The scripture plainly says ' comfort one another with these words'. As a side note, we are looking for Jesus Christ now, not the antichrist. We will be kept from the hour of trial to try those on the earth. Rev 3

The rapture is not a fable like you mention. It is a event listed in the bible as truth.

First let me say this,one cannot seperate the Church from Israel,they are one and the same......Different topic for a different time,however since you seem to think so, my question to you is

Who were the Apostles,were they of the Church or Israel?

Also,the only way one shall be kept from the hour of trail,is by the Word of God,which consist of

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."


Christ does not and will not return until after satan the antichrist is here first,period..................
 
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tonyRebornInChrist said in post 9:

Enoch also pictured the Church and was 'took' before Judgment (Gen 5:24, Mat 24:37)

Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah in the ark). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood.

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year that Solomon's temple began to be built: Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back: If Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 9:

Enoch also pictured the Church and was 'took' before Judgment (Gen 5:24, Mat 24:37)

Regarding Matthew 24:37-41, note that it, like Luke 17:26-37, refers to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 9:

Enoch also pictured the Church and was 'took' before Judgment (Gen 5:24, Mat 24:37)

We see a patturn of Gods nature here throughout scripture. Will God also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (Gen 18:23-33)

Sometimes (Ezekiel 21:3-4). But note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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ebedmelech said in post 10:

So why are you trying to read another temple into this after the apostles have taught the church is the temple?

While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

ebedmelech said in post 10:

So when the angel says to John come up here, you're taught that's a rapture?

It's not the rapture (as is sometimes claimed). For Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church, in the general sense, will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".
 
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bibletruth469 said in post 12:

First of all, Jesus is talking to Israel , not the church in Matt 24.

The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation-rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

bibletruth469 said in post 12:

This is not the same trumpet as the 7th trumpet in revelation with the trumpet judgements .

Regarding the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 not being the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation, that's right. For the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus, like in Matthew 24:30-31. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

bibletruth469 said in post 12:

This trumpet at the second coming does gather the elect ( believing Israel and believing Gentiles ) and they will be able to enter into the mellinimum kingdom, while the non believers will be cast of the kingdom( sheep and goat judgement).

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

bibletruth469 said in post 12:

The church will not be part of the tribulation. The scripture plainly says ' comfort one another with these words'.

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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No there are two events the day and hour the thief comes, which means death that comes upon an individual to destroy their earthly tent, that is, their body and the other is the seventh trumpet being sounded by Christ at the end of the great harvest of God when he declares time no longer.

Refer to my thread "Second Coming Doctrine is not biblical

http://www.christianforums.com/t7803694/
 
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bibletruth469

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n2thelight said:
First let me say this,one cannot seperate the Church from Israel,they are one and the same......Different topic for a different time,however since you seem to think so, my question to you is Who were the Apostles,were they of the Church or Israel? Also,the only way one shall be kept from the hour of trail,is by the Word of God,which consist of Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Christ does not and will not return until after satan the antichrist is here first,period..................

The church and Israel our different. For example , another subject, but the 144,000 are Jewish not gentile .

The apostles are both Jewish and a part of the church. God made a distinction after the Jews left there heritage of observing the mosaic law .30-40 AD . Before that time period , the church did all the practices of the Jewish people . It didn't seem to occur to them at that time that all the customs were abolished in Christ . Anyway, God caused the demise of the mosaic law for the church. The 2 groups remain separate today.

Jesus in Matt 24 is telling them about the time if the end. Whether he is talking to them as the church or to the Jews who will be around at the end, is not as significant to me as what Jesus was saying to those people at the time of the end( IMO)

The verse that you used is out of context to our discussion. ( Ephesians 6:11) it is about how to defend yourself from the enemy.

The church is caught up first, then the antichrist and tribulation come.
 
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I know we have alot of rapture topics on here,but I just had to start this one.....

Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are the same event

The following demonstrate very well that all three passages in the Bible that are referring to the second coming of Christ are precisely that. God never intended for His Word to be cryptic or some mountain of confusion where one or more passages are supposedly referring to the second coming and others to some supposed fictional secret rapture.

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Now compare Matthew 24 with the above events using 1 Thessalonians since some erroneously teach that Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Jesus, which they teach is a different event to the above chapters which they say refers to a secret rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order. There are not two different aspects of the return of Jesus. There is only one second coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

Matthew 24
Jesus coming ,Trumpet,angels gather saints,coming in the clouds

1Thess 4
Jesus coming,Trumpet,dead saints raised,coming in clouds

1Corinth15
At His coming,Last trump,dead saints raised......

Christ only returns once more,which is the second coming.......

Oh.....um.......Contrar..........

The Lord Himself will decend from heaven with a shout...............

He will send his angels.................

So which is it if he only comes once?

The trump of God

The last Trump

So which is it......as they are not the same?

Your position has more holes than the Cowboys defense.
 
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bibletruth469 said in post 18:

The church and Israel our different. For example , another subject, but the 144,000 are Jewish not gentile .

The 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

bibletruth469 said in post 18:

The church is caught up first, then the antichrist and tribulation come.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
 
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