The Richness of Individualism (Learning to Accept Disunity in the MJ community)

[visionary]

I attend a home bible study group which allowed each member to share what they have come to know. With each meeting, we got to know each members better, were able to share with them, and with prayers at the beginning, end and sometimes during each meeting, repentance happened, enlightenment happened, and one thing was for sure, growing to love each individual where they were at spiritual brought about through patience, tolerance, and long suffering in some cases. It can be done.

 

[visionary]

Anything can be used or abused, sometimes simultaneously.

Unity is generally good in my opinion. It is good if your goal is to achieve unity, and grow, organize and thrive. But I also distinguish, in the OP, between rich and poor forms of unity. Yeshua said "a house divided cannot stand". Someone else said "the house of the wicked one can only be conquered by the undivided house of the righteous one". I happen to agree with both statements, personally.

When each man follows his own opinion, you have division, as is presently the case. Unity doesn't come from that, and in fact, unity does require some amount of compromise.

However, this present state of things is apparently by the permission and will of God. And accepting that it is his actual will, and not something that somehow happens even though he doesn't want it to, has been a revelation for me.

Unity does require tolerance, long suffering, patience, but not necessarily compromise. We are allowed to remain individualists, as God intended, keeping the talents and gifts God has given us. We are not all hands and feet, some of us are the brains, while others are other essential body parts.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Unity does require tolerance, long suffering, patience, but not necessarily compromise. We are allowed to remain individualist, keeping the talents and gifts God has given us. We are not all hands and feet, some of us are the brains, while others are other essential body parts.

I guess it depends on the definition of words.

Long suffering, tolerance, patience etc are all forms of compromise, (by which I simply mean to denote an agreement or settlement of a dispute that is reached by making concessions or showing patience,) and nothing wrong with that.

 

[visionary]

I guess it depends on the definition of words.

Long suffering, tolerance, patience etc are all forms of compromise, and nothing wrong with that.

We have been fortunate in the first two pages of this thread didn't devolve into arguments about definitions of words, and I hope we can avoid such arguments on page three of the thread as well.

Compromise is when you give up your beliefs in favor of conformity. Patience, tolerance and long suffering are like Yeshua on the cross, because you know better and are willing to stand for right in the face of opposition, even those in power who demand uniformity unity.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Compromise is when you give up your beliefs in favor of conformity. Patience, tolerance and long suffering are like Yeshua on the cross, because you know better and are willing to stand for right in the face of opposition, even those in power who demand uniformity unity.

"Compromise is when you give up your beliefs in favor of conformity."

According to the dictionary, that is not necessarily the case.
But I already gave you MY definition, so why can't you just accept that ?

I happen to have the dictionary on my side, but even if I didn't/don't, you should accept what I meant to indicate, when I clarify it.

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

 

[visionary]

com·pro·mise
ˈkämprəˌmīz/
noun

1. 1.
   an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
   "an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both"
   synonyms: agreement, understanding, settlement, terms, deal, trade-off, bargain;More

verb

1. 1.
   settle a dispute by mutual concession.
   "in the end we compromised and deferred the issue"
   synonyms: meet each other halfway, come to an understanding, make a deal,make concessions, find a happy medium, strike a balance;
   give and take
   "we compromised"
2. 2.
   accept standards that are lower than is desirable.
   "we were not prepared to compromise on safety"

"Compromise is when you give up your beliefs in favor of conformity."

According to the dictionary, that is not the case.
But I already gave you MY definition, so why can't you just accept that ?

because I am a non-conformist. lol.....Somethings are not worth concession, not all concessions are mutual.... some are lopsided and therefore not a happy medium. Remember the religious powers that be had asked Yeshua to compromise his convictions, and stop declaring "I am"... which was blasphemy in their ears, but the truth in God's eyes.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Visionary I am sorry to say that your post makes no sense to me.

These are the reasons it doesn't make sense to me:

1) You are blatantly ignoring, while "laughing out loud" supposedly, the word of God in 2nd Timothy.

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

2) You are quoting the definitions of compromise, and if you actually read what you quoted, you will see that my usage of the term is completely justified and accurate.

3) I already told you what I MEANT by my usage of the term. End of discussion. The intended meaning is what matters.

Visionary I am now politely asking you to please not continue insisting on this semantic issue.
In the name of Yeshua, let there be peaceable discussion and growth, and not any further semantic debate.

 

[visionary]

Visionary I am sorry to say that your post makes no sense to me.

These are the reasons it doesn't make sense to me:

1) You are blatantly ignoring, while "laughing out loud" supposedly, the word of God in 2nd Timothy.

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

2) You are quoting the definitions of compromise, and if you actually read what you quoted, you will see that my usage of the term is completely justified and accurate.

3) I already told you what I MEANT by my usage of the term. End of discussion. The intended meaning is what matters.

Visionary I am now politely asking you to please not continue insisting on this semantic issue.
In the name of Yeshua, let there be peaceable discussion and growth, and not any further semantic debate.

I am being peaceful. I am not forcing your or mine opinion on anyone. I find the frustration at my non-compliance to be reaching its limits of tolerance, long suffering or patience in the last post. I am not quarreling about words, but in all honesty, I am explaining my position, even in the face of the term of compromise. For in this discussion, the compromise requested, which is one sided, the one side we are to support in this thread. Not all compromises fit the definitions. Unity can be found in the uniting in faith in Yeshua and in His Way. He never compromised His principles.

 

[Hoshiyya]

This thread is not concerned with a linguistic issue. Any further quarreling about words will be reported to admins. I have politely warned you, sister. I genuinely like you, but you quarreled with me for no reason.

In this thread I share, for those who may be interested, my reconceptualization of the present state of MJ.
This is communicated through the three sections my OP is divided into.

I also invite people to share their stories about coming to terms with and incorporating MJ into their lives, especially in the context of being surrounded by people who don't accept MJ as a valid religion. A context I think many recognize.

(Elaborating on that latter point, I think, without the internet, most Messianics would feel even more isolated than they already are. The "MJ community" is for many people not a physical thing, but rather a virtual one.)

To pretend that the current state of things is uniformly good or desirable is not an option for me.
But to try to change the current state of things is not realistic. To fight against God is not an option. So I am trying to understand why he allows or causes things to be this way, and the positive aspects of what he has done. I said the present state of things is not uniformly good, but it is not uniformly bad either. I have recently had my mind opened to perceive several positive aspects to the current state of things. None which requires me pretending that unity and organization are (uniformly) bad.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Rabbi Mizrachi teaches that in every curse there is some blessing, and in every blessing there is some curse. I don't think it is supposed to be taken literally, so I try to understand what he meant by it. I think he means that in this phase of his plan, God doesn't allow anything, generally speaking, to be uniformly good or uniformly bad. Generally speaking, everything has some potential for both good and bad in it.

So it should be possible, and indeed is possible, to find a positive side, as my sister Visionary previously said, a "silver lining."

NOBODY is promoting unity at the expense of your true beliefs. If I wanted unity at the cost of beliefs, I could give up all my beliefs and just join the Catholic or Orthodox church. I am not doing that.

Theoretically, for us to have unity, whether virtual or physical unity, there needs to be patience. I used "compromise" as a synonym for patience, that is all.

Example: I believe in Predestination. But it would be unreasonable for me to require everyone in a congregation to also believe in Predestination as prerequisite to my joining that congregation - especially considering that Predestination is purely theory and doesn't affect the daily performance of Mitzvot.

So if I found a congregation where I agreed, more or less, with their teachings on practical matters and certain core doctrines, I would be able to join it, without letting our disagreement on Predestination prohibit that.
So this is what I mean by compromise.

 

[Norbert L]

The point is that while we can accept that the current epoch requires conforming to the individualist reality, we can still acknowledge the preferability of unity, including "big unity" as found in the popular world religions.

Unity is a complex issue where the richness of the individual's relationship with Messiah and their like minded brethen have to deal with it in their own way.

I believe unity or the lack thereof on a popular world religious scale doesn't make one drop of difference when it comes to God's will (Isa 55:1-11). The way things are right now (with all its' disunity) does permit people to freely choose who they unify with face to face or choose not to, without pain of death. In current affairs today, nobody is baring the door shut and telling people they can't leave their fellowship in many countries.

Putting it another way. It's not that disunity should be taught and is preferred over unity, it's just that... to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill's idea about democracy... disunity is the worst form of organized worship we have, except all the others that have been tried.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Unity is a complex issue where the richness of the individual's relationship with Messiah and their like minded brethen have to deal with it in their own way.

I believe unity or the lack thereof on a popular world religious scale doesn't make one drop of difference when it comes to God's will (Isa 55:1-11). The way things are right now (with all its' disunity) does permit people to freely choose who they unify with face to face or choose not to, without pain of death. In current affairs today, nobody is baring the door shut and telling people they can't leave their fellowship in many countries.

Putting it another way. It's not that disunity should be taught and is preferred over unity, it's just that... to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill's idea about democracy... disunity is the worst form of organized worship we have, except all the others that have been tried.

I hear you, but I guess I feel you're ignoring the scripture and ideas I mentioned. So you haven't convinced me, but I thank you for the consideration, and I can tell you put thought and effort into your post.

To be honest, I wish others would be able to admit the preferability of unity, including big unity, over and above disunity. But even if they don't, it doesn't matter. Because admitting the preferability of unity (brotherhood/sisterhood/organization) over and above disunity, while in a state of disunity, still leaves us in a state of disunity.

To me it looks like this:
There is a cave filled with starving people. Someone comes and says it would be good for you to eat, but the starving people have managed to convince themselves that food is bad. To me, that is a reactionalism. They must have originally wanted food, but having grown accustomed to not having food, they somehow came up with this rationalization.
Actually, it is similar to one of the character arcs in Shawshank Redemption, where one guy gets so used to being a prisoner he cannot handle being released from prison.

In the past, people with MJ or proto-MJ ideas literally were not allowed by authorities to organize. Now we can, but don't have the motivation, or enough agreement, to do it. And of course, there is very few of us. I cannot name another person in my country who adheres to MJ or anything similar to MJ. I'm sure there's at least one or two, but I don't know where or what their names are.

That is, understandably, a sad reality to accept. I tried to find ways around it. But by accepting the reality, I can come to peace with it and find positive sides to it that I had not previously considered.

These recent revelations have also made the Biblical teachings on the Apocalypse more sensible and meaningful to me. I have mentioned some other positives on previous pages of this thread, and I'm sure I'll find more.

 

[visionary]

Have any particular MJ ideas that create fingernail across the chalkboard reaction in which you consider dis-unifying?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Have any particular MJ ideas that create fingernail across the chalkboard reaction in which you consider dis-unifying?

Hi again Vis.

I welcome you back into the conversation, and am happy to have you here.

To answer your question, while I am not entirely sure what you mean, I would refer you to the Predestination example given above. That would be an example of unnecessarily avoiding unity, creating a reason to not join a congregation, by having too high a standard.

I have previously argued that if we have the same calendar, and generally the same understanding of the application of mitzvot, we should be able to have physical unity and should try to work together and be friendly.
And those of us who don't have realistic hope for physical unity with other believers have the hope of virtual congregations or online unity, which in my personal view is a lesser unity, but definetely preferable to absolute isolation.

 

[visionary]

so same calendar, same mitzvot reaction to situations, and physical proximity... make for good unity.

 

[pat34lee]

Have any particular MJ ideas that create fingernail across the chalkboard reaction in which you consider dis-unifying?

I do, and it grates just like that. HASHEM. I got a chill up my back just writing it.
There is no excuse, once you know he has a name, not to use it, and every reason biblically why we must.
I believe he honored using Lord, God, Jesus when we didn't know any better, but we are expected to learn
and apply what we learn to everything we do and say.

 

[BabylonWeary]

Is this question of unity, or the richness of unity or disunity as the case may be, about an understanding of holiness as that were like a photorealism compared to an abstract concept? Because this makes sense to me:

I want to elaborate on a statement I made:

The idea that the true religion of God would be hid for over 1900 years and only recently surface in modern times is very distinct to MJ, and offensive to everyone who belongs to the older forms of Christianity.

And I have sympathy with them (the Christians) in this case.

There are verses in the Revelation, a binding and loosening of seals, and to see how many Christians go one through it looking for signs, or maybe something that comes up in the news like, okay, this or that trumpet is sounding, so the fate of the world must be at that point along a timeline of the prophecy. Is that just confusion? So many denominations of Christianity, they're often at odds with each other yet joined together by doctrines... so what happens when an individual lets go of those doctrines? As for myself, this is why I avoid going to church because I read the Bible and the intrigues of the gospel seems quite different than what the churches teach. Could it be that Christianity is wondering in the desert for 2000 years, or is it a weakness of individuals to just go along with the group without asking the right questions about the direction they're moving towards, and so forth?

Thanks for this topic, this is insightful.

 

[visionary]

Yep, Revelation.. is revealing, in stages, at the appointed times, to the discerning. May we continue to grow in Him.

 

[ContraMundum]

First of all, thanks for the great contributions. Your posts in this thread have been very reflective and also personally agreeable to me.

Thanks, you too.

But I don't know what you mean by "polity" in this post. It sounds like you might be using it to mean organization, which is something MJ doesn't have much of (as far as I am concerned). I however think it is possible, for me, to accept the "fate" or eventuality that I will not see (and be part of) such an organization, such an expression/actualization of unity, in my lifetime, or at least not in the nearest future.

You understand my point correctly. I also think I agree with your thoughts on the "fate" of the movement.

 

[ContraMundum]

Ripping this text a little out of context...

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Cor 11:19

Worthy of investigation I think.