The Richness of Individualism (Learning to Accept Disunity in the MJ community)

[Hoshiyya]

Not at all. You've been a great inspiration to me. I'm having trouble on my account. The new system locked me out of my account for 3-4 weeks. Now I'm in but my stuff is all missing. The techs are still working on my account. This is the first day I've been able to get mobile on the new CF.

Because of your influence I joined a Jewish community and am taking intensive training with my Rabbi. I'm very busy reading all the materials he's given me, and learning to read and speak Hebrew. I hope the techs get my pm's and posts back because some of the advice you gave me by pm is what I'm still following.

This forum has made a huge difference in my faith and interpretation of scripture. There's many Jews and MJs here that are shaping my new understanding of Yeshua and Paul, and you're the first person here that helped me make the paradigm shift to pro-Torah by answering my questions clearly and powerfully.

Today is the first day back and I have a tonne of reading to catch up on here. Shalom my friend. (Where's all the good smilies gone?)

Glad to see you here again !

I'm happy that this forum has been a positive influence on you.

Yeah all the smilies are terrible now.

Shalom to you as well !

 

[pat34lee]

I missed you all too. You guys are family. It's bad when the system rejects you and won't let you in. I started to get a complex.

Yes, this forum turned me around and straightened out a lifetime of anti-Torah theology. I had a lot of other misunderstandings too. I have a new appreciation and understanding of Judaism. So a big "Thank you" to all of you who talked me out of error and into truth.

For every 1 teachable person who posts here, there's a lot who don't post. Teachable people usually are too shy to say anything publicly. It's not easy to come into a forum, find out I've got a lot of wrong ideas, ask questions, and make mistakes in front of everyone. Mistakes are a part of learning though.

Debaters on the other hand don't seem to be shy at all about posting their thoughts.

If a person can't handle posting your thoughts here, what happens when they are talking to someone who is either an atheist, agnostic or just uneducated in the scriptures and the subject comes up about faith and Yahweh?

As for midrashing, it may help as a mental exercise and to bring new ideas to think about, as long as it is understood there is still only one truth underlying everything else. It can be easy to fall into 'everything is relative' which is a cop-out.

 

[ContraMundum]

While unity in diversity is part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition, the problem is that rank individualism overthrows both unity and diversity if it isn't balanced with grace and patience.

One example is that many in the MJ movement- as elsewhere- seem to engage in "last man standing" theology. They will attack and debate all other opinions, thinking that if they can knock everyone else down, that would somehow make them right as the last standing opinion/option.

The sad part of this is that this kind of thinking always ends up mis-representing the faith of others. It is, in effect, slanderous lashon hara. This goes on very frequently in any religious context and sadly MJism is so far from maturity that it is still grappling with how to tame the tongue and how to live with the kind of grace shown in Rom 14. Far too much focus is put on slamming people for not keeping the law "our way" (whatever that may be) and this has led to nothing but pompous arrogance and assumptions about the hearts of others that unity is really an impossibility.

Unity in diversity is impossible without patience, understanding and humility. It's a heart thing, not a doctrinal thing.

 

[ContraMundum]

If anyone is a pastor or elder, have you ever heard of disciplining a church member for sin? Has anyone ever seen a person told to leave a congregation and not come back? Tell me what you think of 1 Corinthians 5 and Ephesians 5:11.

I have been in a position where I had to do that- it was the wish of the congregation, but my burden to carry it out. It's a terrible feeling too. Not recommended.

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't think anyone is promoting goose-stepping here...

Here's my take: I think there is a middle ground somewhere between military fascism and absolute anarchy. However that desirable middle ground does not seem to be a realistic thing to hope for right now, judging by the disunity of the MJ community. And instead of fighting that reality, it is possible to make peace with it.

That's exactly how ecclesiastic polities form. That's their purpose. If you believe that there is a particular polity that is in uniformity with your theology, that would be the "middle ground" you seek. I think the MJ movement has a long way to go in polity. A long way. No real theology of polity has been investigated or embraced. It's a very important part of finding unity, and the churches are centuries ahead on this matter.

 

[pat34lee]

I have been in a position where I had to do that- it was the wish of the congregation, but my burden to carry it out. It's a terrible feeling too. Not recommended.

It is necessary or it wouldn't be in the bible. Most churches don't care what you do every day, unless you bring public shame on the church, such as a pastor getting caught in wrongdoing. Living in open sin is fine, as long as you show up and tithe.

 

[Truthfrees]

If a person can't handle posting your thoughts here, what happens when they are talking to someone who is either an atheist, agnostic or just uneducated in the scriptures and the subject comes up about faith and Yahweh?

As for midrashing, it may help as a mental exercise and to bring new ideas to think about, as long as it is understood there is still only one truth underlying everything else. It can be easy to fall into 'everything is relative' which is a cop-out.

Good points.

To clarify what I was meaning, midrashing is a respectful way to PRESENT differing opinions and beliefs, in a mutual search for truth. IOW midrash may NOT change minds, but for sure it allows each person to fully explain their beliefs and question the other party.

Debate is often a COMPETITION and degrades into derogatory personal attacks.

The people I know personally who won't post here, enjoy a friendly respectful intelligent discussion in the spirit of midrash, but not this:

"Continue teaching [Remind them of] these things, ·warning people [solemnly testifying/declaring] in God’s presence not to ·argue [quarrel] about words. It ·does not help anyone [is good for nothing], and it ruins those who listen." - 2 Timothy 2:14

This is what they prefer, and this is what CF rules are meant to facilitate:

"But ·respect Christ as the holy Lord [sanctify Christ as Lord; Is. 8:13] in your hearts [that is, acknowledge his holiness and sovereignty in your life]. Always be ready to ·answer [or give a defense to] everyone who asks you to explain about the hope ·you have [that is in you]." - 1 Peter 3:15

 

[ContraMundum]

It is necessary or it wouldn't be in the bible. Most churches don't care what you do every day, unless you bring public shame on the church, such as a pastor getting caught in wrongdoing. Living in open sin is fine, as long as you show up and tithe.

You have to show grace though, at all times. People come to churches in various states of being. For some, giving up smoking is a massive step, for others cheating on their taxes is fearful to give away. For others, just walking in the door is hard. Most people live in some form of "open sin", as you put it, whether big or small or obvious or not. People struggle in their walk with God. You have to allow people time to grow and also be themselves. The only other option is legalism and cultism, which any sane person would reject and which would make a church more of a prison than a hospital for the wounded.

I think your spin on church life is a little cynical and rather hard hearted- "as you long as you show up and tithe" everything is alright. I really don't think churches in my experience would accept that. Most would rather be dirt poor and pursuing holiness than wealthy and permitting hypocrisy.

While discipline is sometimes sadly necessary, the abuse of discipline is dangerous and destructive to the soul. For this reason it's always better to work with a preference to grace and patience with those in the congregation struggling with the new life.

 

[pat34lee]

You have to show grace though, at all times. People come to churches in various states of being. For some, giving up smoking is a massive step, for others cheating on their taxes is fearful to give away. For others, just walking in the door is hard. Most people live in some form of "open sin", as you put it, whether big or small or obvious or not. People struggle in their walk with God. You have to allow people time to grow and also be themselves. The only other option is legalism and cultism, which any sane person would reject and which would make a church more of a prison than a hospital for the wounded.

I think your spin on church life is a little cynical and rather hard hearted- "as you long as you show up and tithe" everything is alright. I really don't think churches in my experience would accept that. Most would rather be dirt poor and pursuing holiness than wealthy and permitting hypocrisy.

Have you heard of Creflo Dollar? This article says as much about his church as him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/04/creflo-dollar-wcci-statement_n_7506020.html

Then there is Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker, etc. Probably hundreds of other crooks in the pulpits making millions. Thousands making less.

I think we see the duty of churches a little (or a lot) differently. It seems you see grade school where I see training camp. The time is getting too short for church-type teaching to be effective. The churches are mostly too far in error anyway, and people need to get out of them. People should be meeting in home fellowships like college study groups during finals, studying the word and current events to understand our place as we enter the end times.

 

[ContraMundum]

Have you heard of Creflo Dollar? This article says as much about his church as him.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/04/creflo-dollar-wcci-statement_n_7506020.html

Then there is Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jimmy and Tammy Faye Bakker, etc. Probably hundreds of other crooks in the pulpits making millions. Thousands making less.

Isn't this a rather fallacious approach to it all though- abuse is the norm? It's like saying there's no such thing as a $100 bill because there are known counterfeits.

I think we see the duty of churches a little (or a lot) differently. It seems you see grade school where I see training camp.

No, I see it as grace-school. Not grade school.

The time is getting too short for church-type teaching to be effective. The churches are mostly too far in error anyway, and people need to get out of them. People should be meeting in home fellowships like college study groups during finals, studying the word and current events to understand our place as we enter the end times.

I'll take that as an opinion.

 

[Lulav]

I have been in a position where I had to do that- it was the wish of the congregation, but my burden to carry it out. It's a terrible feeling too. Not recommended.

I know what you mean, but you have to focus on protecting the flock and understand the one bad apple rule. You will find you are not just a shepherd but also a gardener having to occasionally pull out the weeds before they strangle the whole crop.

I hope you understand my metaphors.

 

[pat34lee]

I know what you mean, but you have to focus on protecting the flock and understand the one bad apple rule. You will find you are not just a shepherd but also a gardener having to occasionally pull out the weeds before they strangle the whole crop.

I hope you understand my metaphors.

That is why the bible's seeming obsession with leaven. It doesn't take much to infect a whole congregation when you let things slide.

 

[ContraMundum]

I know what you mean, but you have to focus on protecting the flock and understand the one bad apple rule. You will find you are not just a shepherd but also a gardener having to occasionally pull out the weeds before they strangle the whole crop.

I hope you understand my metaphors.

Yep- got it, and I agree.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I think we see the duty of churches a little (or a lot) differently. It seems you see grade school where I see training camp. The time is getting too short for church-type teaching to be effective. The churches are mostly too far in error anyway, and people need to get out of them. People should be meeting in home fellowships like college study groups during finals, studying the word and current events to understand our place as we enter the end times.

I agree with this.

I don't think they need to specifically meet in homes, they can rent space or meet in the open air, depending on the type of study or meeting they're having. In these days, it would be prudent to record the sessions and upload them on a page where others can listen. Youtube is also a great asset.

 

[Hoshiyya]

That's exactly how ecclesiastic polities form. That's their purpose. If you believe that there is a particular polity that is in uniformity with your theology, that would be the "middle ground" you seek. I think the MJ movement has a long way to go in polity. A long way. No real theology of polity has been investigated or embraced. It's a very important part of finding unity, and the churches are centuries ahead on this matter.

First of all, thanks for the great contributions. Your posts in this thread have been very reflective and also personally agreeable to me.

But I don't know what you mean by "polity" in this post. It sounds like you might be using it to mean organization, which is something MJ doesn't have much of (as far as I am concerned). I however think it is possible, for me, to accept the "fate" or eventuality that I will not see (and be part of) such an organization, such an expression/actualization of unity, in my lifetime, or at least not in the nearest future.

 

[Norbert L]

I'm not sure how unity or the lack thereof are measuring sticks for credibility when it comes to the word of God.

The way I see it: There are places in the Bible that speak of disunity happening before the ink was drying as the scripture was being written, such as 3 John 1:9. Never mind the sure prediction of 2 Peter 2:1 and for near two thousand years that's been a historical condition within Christianity. Are people to believe that during such a time seeking the Lord is a reflection of being less credible? That it's only an MJ thing?

Don't get me wrong, I believe building relationships with like minded believers is a good thing (He 10:25). However, it just may be that given both sides of the this particular coin, for some people the unity or the lack thereof can be more of a measuring stick for that individual looking to build their own credibility.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'm not sure how unity or the lack thereof are measuring sticks for credibility when it comes to the word of God.

The way I see it: There are places in the Bible that speak of disunity happening before the ink was drying as the scripture was being written, such as 3 John 1:9. Never mind the sure prediction of 2 Peter 2:1 and for near two thousand years that's been a historical condition within Christianity. Are people to believe that during such a time seeking the Lord is a reflection of being less credible? That it's only an MJ thing?

Don't get me wrong, I believe building relationships with like minded believers is a good thing (He 10:25). However, it just may be that given both sides of the this particular coin, for some people the unity or the lack thereof can be more of a measuring stick for that individual looking to build their own credibility.

Well, you are probably trying to help, but if I have to be honest, to me it seems like this is the type of sentiment that I was referring to in section 2 of the OP.
There are people who have a early Protestant-like tendency to present disunity as good, and are skeptical/suspicious toward any attempt at unity. Unity is seen as "people looking to build their own credibility," never mind Mark 3:25 and all of Paul's exhortations to unity, and the scriptures that many interpret to mean that the church started by Yeshua would not die out, his teaching would not die out, etc.

This modern notion that all ideas are equally valid is not Biblical. The idea that the true religion of God would be hid for over 1900 years and only recently surface in modern times is very distinct to MJ, and offensive to everyone who belongs to the older forms of Christianity.

I think people will make any excuse they need to make in order to justify their lifestyle. If they don't want to have fellowship or organized unity with other believers, they will find an excuse to remain as they are.

All I can do is quote from the OP:
I think disunity/individualism is not a necessity, and there are MANY examples from the past where divisiveness and individualism have been great sins, causing great harm to God's people and his religion. I think disunity is not essentially good, but rather something that can have both good and bad effects. It is, to be honest, extreme foolishness to view disunity as a necessity or as something that is only good. That leads into solipsism, that leads into elevating yourself, or simply put, arrogance. The same sin that traditionally led to the fall of the Satan.

(Immediately prior to this I delineated a distinction between rich individualism and poor individualism, and between rich unity and poor unity, which I think is important. )

The point is that while we can accept that the current epoch requires conforming to the individualist reality, we can still acknowledge the preferability of unity, including "big unity" as found in the popular world religions.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I want to elaborate on a statement I made:

The idea that the true religion of God would be hid for over 1900 years and only recently surface in modern times is very distinct to MJ, and offensive to everyone who belongs to the older forms of Christianity.

And I have sympathy with them (the Christians) in this case.

I can understand that most Christians would not accept such a sensationlist scenario, but in many ways it is a challenge for me to accept this scenario too.

In a way, the true religion of God has survived, if we define his religion as the Torah and/or as Judaism, in an unspecific sense of the term(s).
So in that sense, we can make the argument that the religion of God has survived. Thereby we avoid the offense, and the megalomania, that comes from sensastionalistic restorationist claims. (I have been making this argument for many months, and it has been greatly misinterpreted.)

But in a way, it is unavoidable to admit that the true religion of God did not survive if the historical teachings of Yeshua, as understood by MJ, did not survive. There is no unbroken line of MJ believers/organization from the past 'til today. It began to surface as a result of developments within Protestantism in the last 100 years or so. The combined belief in Yeshua and the validity of Torah is relatively recent. And also, the people who hold such a belief are very disunited. This does discredit MJ in the eyes of many, and understandably so.

So I think it is especially bizarre when people conceptualize unity as a bad thing.
It seems to me these are people who want/wanted unity, but saw no hope for it, and then made a 180 degree turn, convincing themselves that unity is actually a bad thing.
But I think it is possible to admit the preferability of unity over and above disunity, even when not having that unity.

 

[pat34lee]

It seems to me these are people who want/wanted unity, but saw no hope for it, and then made a 180 degree turn, convincing themselves that unity is actually a bad thing.
But I think it is possible to admit the preferability of unity over and above disunity, even when not having that unity.

Unity is not good or bad. It depends on the conditions you accept to be united. I don't think it should be our priority because if we follow Yahweh in truth, unity will come, and it won't be through compromise.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Unity is not good or bad. It depends on the conditions you accept to be united. I don't think it should be our priority because if we follow Yahweh in truth, unity will come, and it won't be through compromise.

Anything can be used or abused, sometimes simultaneously.

Unity is generally good in my opinion. It is good if your goal is to achieve unity, and grow, organize and thrive. But I also distinguish, in the OP, between rich and poor forms of unity. Yeshua said "a house divided cannot stand". Someone else said "the house of the wicked one can only be conquered by the undivided house of the righteous one". I happen to agree with both statements, personally.

When each man follows his own opinion, you have division, as is presently the case. Unity doesn't come from that, and in fact, unity does require some amount of compromise.

However, this present state of things is apparently by the permission and will of God. And accepting that it is his actual will, and not something that somehow happens even though he doesn't want it to, has been a revelation for me.