The Richness of Individualism (Learning to Accept Disunity in the MJ community)

[Hoshiyya]

Learning to accept the disunity of the MJ community, and finding positive aspects to individualism.

This thread is about my personal attempt to come to terms with and explain (recasting positively) various MJ problems.

I have divided this into three sections, where I share my meditations on and attempts at finding perspectival solutions to what I see as problems plagueing and discrediting MJ in my personal estimation.

The first section creates the groundwork for the subsequent lines of thought.

In the second section I pick up the thread from the first section and I meditate over the fact that many people in the MJ community strongly oppose to any call to unity, which is also a problem, since it lacks perspective.

The third section is an attempt at reframing something negative in a postive perspective.


1 - FINDING RICHNESS OF EXPRESSION IN THE DISUNITY

There is unity and disunity. Both have a rich variant and a poor variant.
Our goal should be rich unity, but since that is not realistic goal right now, the goal of the individual adherent of MJ should be a rich individualism, a rich form of disunity.

By rich I mean to denote something both spiritually vibrant/vivacuous, but also diverse in a positive sense. By poor I mean to denote something less or not spiritually vibrant/vivacious, but also something not or less diverse.


2 - A CALL TO WIDENING PERSPECTIVE

Disunity can be bad, but also leads into Individualism.
Individualism leads to personal expression.
Personal expression leads to diversity.
Diversity leads to richness.

So while disunity can have many obvious negative effects, even becoming an existential threat to the affected entity/group, it can also have positive side-effects to be expressed in this present epoch prior to "the end."

I see many people who are very invested in the individualist conceptuality, who seem to think that disunity is a necessity, and that it is essentially good. I think disunity/individualism is not a necessity, and there are MANY examples from the past where divisiveness and individualism have been great sins, causing great harm to God's people and his religion. I think disunity is not essentially good, but rather something that can have both good and bad effects. It is, to be honest, extreme foolishness to view disunity as a necessity or as something that is only good. That leads into solipsism, that leads into elevating yourself, or simply put, arrogance. The same sin that traditionally led to the fall of the Satan. But that's beside the point.

The point is that while we can accept that the current epoch requires conforming to the individualist reality, we can still acknowledge the preferability of unity, including "big unity" as found in the popular world religions.


3 - REDEEMING APOCALYPTICISM

I have seen Apocalypticism as a symptom that something is wrong. And there is a lot of truth to that. A successful religion outgrows its own Apocalypticism. However, there is a way to justify/excuse this negative.

Unlike the more successful / popular religions, we have an actual need to hope for "the end" / the Apocalypse. We have an actual need for the Apocalypse, whereas Catholicism and Islam really don't. Our religion will inevitably die out if God doesn't come along and save it from extinction. That cannot be said about the well-established world religions of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. which do not have the same existential crisis, the same identity crisis, as the MJ religion.

I think if MJ was currently, or if MJ was supposed to be, a succesful and popular world-religion, God would not include an Apocalypse in his plan. Apparently MJ is meant, intended by God, to be in the state it currently is in.

I have said previously that any divisive group will have excuses for its divisiveness, but only those that can get past their divisiveness will survive and be a part of history and the plan of God. But maybe the plan of God is that the true religion will be scattered among disparate individuals with each their own understanding of the true religion, which leads to a diversity of expression of the Torah, true to the traditional proverb: "the Torah has 70 faces". Hence the present epoch is marked by a relativism and subjectivism (being side-effects of individualism) that we see to whatever degree in the other ideologies and religions of the world today as well.


IMPORTANT - READ BEFORE POSTING:

This thread is NOT an invitation for a critic to take one sentence or paragraph he or she disagrees with and just focusing a lot of negative energy into picking it apart, insulting others and being a besserwisser. This thread is about one specific human being's attempt to understand the plan and work of God as expressed in MJ today.

Your own personal stories of attempting to come to terms with, incorporate, rationalize or come to peace with MJ are welcome, particularly such as deal with being MJ in non-MJ surroundings.

 

[pat34lee]

There are good reasons for individuality in not only messianism, but among all believers. I won't paste in all the relevant verses, but will link to them. (Actually, just one chapter. 1 Corinthians 12)

Verses 4-11 tell us about the various gifts given to believers. People have different gifts according to the job they are given to do.

12-27 are the important ones for here. We are different parts of the body. Should an eye act like an ear, or a tongue like a knee? We are different for a reason. We were not made to be alike.

28-31 kind of wraps it all up.

 

[Hoshiyya]

There are good reasons for individuality in not only messianism, but among all believers. I won't paste in all the relevant verses, but will link to them. (Actually, just one chapter. 1 Corinthians 12)

Verses 4-11 tell us about the various gifts given to believers. People have different gifts according to the job they are given to do.

12-27 are the important ones for here. We are different parts of the body. Should an eye act like an ear, or a tongue like a knee? We are different for a reason. We were not made to be alike.

28-31 kind of wraps it all up.

If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. (Mark 3:25)

I am trying to come to terms with the fact that while we both subscribe to the label "MJ" we may have differing views on a lot of things, not just differing functions.

Two Catholics, one being a priest and one a lay person, know their place. They are in the same "body", but with different functions. I think many Messianics are not in any "body", hence the reference to 1 Corinthians does not truly apply, in my own personal view. If we (the Messianics) were in the same "body" would not have the disunity we see today.

The eye (priest) and tongue (lay person) are both in the same religion in this case (Catholicism) whereas the case in MJ is such that we have one eye lying over there, five tongues somewhere in the cupboard, six arms in the sink, etc. This is the Chaos I'm trying to comprehend.

 

[visionary]

Many of us have come with "things" that give evidence where they have come from. Uniting for common good and purpose is a silver lining with MJ. The chafe is coming off and what will remain when the Lord is finished are the good kernels of His grain.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Many of us have come with "things" that give evidence where they have come from. Uniting for common good and purpose is a silver lining with MJ. The chafe is coming off and what will remain when the Lord is finished are the good kernels of His grain.

"Uniting for common good and purpose is a silver lining with MJ. "

Yes, I agree.

And building on that statement, I have two reactions:

1) There is not enough of this silver lining. I don't really see any meaningful unity in MJ, and what unity there is seems to be mostly virtual / online unity, which barely even qualifies as unity.

2) The adherents of many other religions don't have to speak like that. The statement you made is a statement one makes when one belongs to a religion where disunity is the norm, hence the little specks of unity that surface here and there are seen as something special.

MJ, the true religion of God, cannot compete with the popular world-religions. For various reasons I hoped the Way of God would be far more popular, far more recognized, than is currently the case. You don't have to be a Catholic to know about Catholicism, and you don't have to be a Muslim to respect Islam. But the true religion of the God who created the universe ? Nobody has heard of it, and if they have, chances are they question the entire premise and think you're a cook for subscribing to such eccentric and unusual, aberrant views.

And I tried to fight this reality, but chances are God has made things to be this way for a reason. I think he maybe wants us to enjoy relativism for a short while, until he reveals the full indisputable truth that all will have to conform to.
By relativism I mean that we all have our own individual understanding, for the duration of this epoch. In fact it seems the truth is veiled or withheld to some extent from us, and that our attempts at unity or big organization are bound to fail.

So basically, I have come to realize there is a way to put a positive spin on all this chaos, and that there are indeed positive side-effects to all this individualism and disunity.

 

[Lulav]

Just a few thoughts, and I applaud your willingness to look at this objectively.

I've been in the movement for almost two decades, before that it was J4J.
I have grown up being taught by family and society in general to, 'conform'.
Many times I resisted this or was not able to participate.
I've come to the realization, albeit a bit late in life, that my path is the one the L-RD set for me and no amount of peer pressure, deriding, insults or condescension can change that.

I think that those that are drawn to this forum, and I have been here since a few months after it was formed, are those who are not mainline MJ's, so there will not be unity. Those that stay here are basically ones that don't find MJ to be the perfect way, but the closest to what they think was 'The Way' in the 1st century. But just as there were many sects back then, there are today and they came in sharp dispute until someone came along and proclaimed that there was only one set of correct ways and did it more for power and control than in reverence.

 

[visionary]

I am sure Yeshua looking at the diversity in His twelve chosen men, wondered if the diversity would tear it apart. We know that the "zealot" ideology within Judas led him to push Yeshua into a spotlight that was not to be. It drove Judas to make the ultimate mistake.

 

[pat34lee]

If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. (Mark 3:25)

I am trying to come to terms with the fact that while we both subscribe to the label "MJ" we may have differing views on a lot of things, not just differing functions.

Two Catholics, one being a priest and one a lay person, know their place.

Look back at Acts 15, the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed among other works. What do they have in common? They are attempts to spell out the minimum amount we can agree on in order to be unified. If a group of people don't believe the bible, it doesn't matter how unified they are; they can go to hell in unity. Most of the world and many who call themselves Christians and messianics are doing just that.

If anyone is a pastor or elder, have you ever heard of disciplining a church member for sin? Has anyone ever seen a person told to leave a congregation and not come back? Tell me what you think of 1 Corinthians 5 and Ephesians 5:11.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"Those that stay here are basically ones that don't find MJ to be the perfect way, but the closest to what they think was The Way in the 1st century."

That sounds realistic.

(Some weeks ago I said this exact thing in a response to TruthFrees. Soon thereafter he ceased being a member on the forum. Sometimes I wonder if it had something to do with what I said. But to me, there is nothing offensive about that statement. I'm sad he left, though.)

I expect my own personal understanding is going to have be corrected by God at some point. I think maybe the current age is such that God allows us to have each our own understanding, making none of us the standard of pure doctrine. This was not always the case in the past, and will (I think) in the future stop being the case, when God establishes his kingdom on earth.

 

[Elihoenai]

The many that seeks individualism is an individual in His Own Way.

The many that seeks for unity is united in Their Own Way.

Those that seek to be One with Father through the Son is separated and united by their common faith.



Isaiah 65:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

65 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;



John 8:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.



Genesis 1:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,



2 Corinthians 6:16-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16 and what agreement to the sanctuary of God with idols? for ye are a sanctuary of the living God, according as God said -- `I will dwell in them, and will walk among [them], and I will be their God, and they shall be My people,

17 wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I -- I will receive you,

 

[Elihoenai]

How can you tell those that Have the Son and/or have Seen the Son?



John 7:15-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 and the Jews were wondering, saying, `How hath this one known letters -- not having learned?'

16 Jesus answered them and said, `My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me;

17 if any one may will to do His will, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is of God, or -- I do speak from myself.



Revelation 2:17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving [it].



Revelation 14:2-3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 and I heard a voice out of the heaven, as a voice of many waters, and as a voice of great thunder, and a voice I heard of harpers harping with their harps,

3 and they sing, as it were, a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the elders, and no one was able to learn the song except the hundred forty-four thousands, who have been bought from the earth;

 

[visionary]

Kindred spirit between the believers, reveals the Holy harmony which comes from meeting God. Sometimes hard to fully understand, comprehend, and relate in words to those around you, but the unity of the spirit says "He knows"

 

[Lulav]

"Those that stay here are basically ones that don't find MJ to be the perfect way, but the closest to what they think was The Way in the 1st century."

That sounds realistic.

(Some weeks ago I said this exact thing in a response to TruthFrees. Soon thereafter he ceased being a member on the forum. Sometimes I wonder if it had something to do with what I said. But to me, there is nothing offensive about that statement. I'm sad he left, though.)

I expect my own personal understanding is going to have be corrected by God at some point. I think maybe the current age is such that God allows us to have each our own understanding, making none of us the standard of pure doctrine. This was not always the case in the past, and will (I think) in the future stop being the case, when God establishes his kingdom on earth.

I sometimes wonder myself, wishing to be ignorant like most, being on the same wavelength as other believers but that isn't going to happen I guess. It is wearisome but like I said before, He will supply us with what we need.

AFA TF, I noticed that he left the forums and I've felt it was something I've said, but he was fresh into his study and felt compelled to teach, but I believe it was in the wrong place. I feel sad because his own faith group wasn't accepting his 'Jewish ways', but that is something most of us go through. I'm sure he will understand in the future. I do miss him being around though, but admire his humbleness.

 

[Dave-W]

I wonder sometimes if we have the WRONG picture of "unity." AFAICT, it is NOT lock step uniformity. (pictures of goose-stepping nazi solders comes to mind with that phrase)

We have a wonderful historical example of Shammai and Hillel. They disagreed on hundreds of points of doctrine and practice. But they remained best of friends. So much so that they and their successors strongly encouraged the students in their respective schools to take wives from the daughters of grads of the OTHER school.

To me that is a unity deeper than just agreement on doctrine or practice. In Ephesians 4 Shaul tells us to "Keep the unity of the Spirit ... until we attain to the unity of the faith." (v 3, 13)

 

[Hoshiyya]

I wonder sometimes if we have the WRONG picture of "unity." AFAICT, it is NOT lock step uniformity. (pictures of goose-stepping nazi solders comes to mind with that phrase)

We have a wonderful historical example of Shammai and Hillel. They disagreed on hundreds of points of doctrine and practice. But they remained best of friends. So much so that they and their successors strongly encouraged the students in their respective schools to take wives from the daughters of grads of the OTHER school.

To me that is a unity deeper than just agreement on doctrine or practice. In Ephesians 4 Shaul tells us to "Keep the unity of the Spirit ... until we attain to the unity of the faith." (v 3, 13)

I don't think anyone is promoting goose-stepping here...

Here's my take: I think there is a middle ground somewhere between military fascism and absolute anarchy. However that desirable middle ground does not seem to be a realistic thing to hope for right now, judging by the disunity of the MJ community. And instead of fighting that reality, it is possible to make peace with it.

 

[visionary]

I don't think anyone is promoting goose-stepping here...

Here's my take: I think there is a middle ground somewhere between military fascism and absolute anarchy. However that desirable middle ground does not seem to be a realistic thing to hope for right now, judging by the disunity of the MJ community. And instead of fighting that reality, it is possible to make peace with it.

If this group of MJ's on this forum is a good example of the varied, then I wouldn't worry about it too much, the consistency and continuity is growing as we learn from each other. The longer this continues the better it gets. I have seen a lot of controversial subjects tested from many angles and we have all benefited from the interaction on the subject. We all have grown from the knowledge, and the benefits are spreading to other believers who see this as a breath of fresh air, meat to chew on, and are grateful.

 

[Truthfrees]

"Those that stay here are basically ones that don't find MJ to be the perfect way, but the closest to what they think was The Way in the 1st century."

That sounds realistic.

(Some weeks ago I said this exact thing in a response to TruthFrees. Soon thereafter he ceased being a member on the forum. Sometimes I wonder if it had something to do with what I said. But to me, there is nothing offensive about that statement. I'm sad he left, though.)

I expect my own personal understanding is going to have be corrected by God at some point. I think maybe the current age is such that God allows us to have each our own understanding, making none of us the standard of pure doctrine. This was not always the case in the past, and will (I think) in the future stop being the case, when God establishes his kingdom on earth.

Not at all. You've been a great inspiration to me. I'm having trouble on my account. The new system locked me out of my account for 3-4 weeks. Now I'm in but my stuff is all missing. The techs are still working on my account. This is the first day I've been able to get mobile on the new CF.

Because of your influence I joined a Jewish community and am taking intensive training with my Rabbi. I'm very busy reading all the materials he's given me, and learning to read and speak Hebrew. I hope the techs get my pm's and posts back because some of the advice you gave me by pm is what I'm still following.

This forum has made a huge difference in my faith and interpretation of scripture. There's many Jews and MJs here that are shaping my new understanding of Yeshua and Paul, and you're the first person here that helped me make the paradigm shift to pro-Torah by answering my questions clearly and powerfully.

Today is the first day back and I have a tonne of reading to catch up on here. Shalom my friend. (Where's all the good smilies gone?)

 

[Truthfrees]

I sometimes wonder myself, wishing to be ignorant like most, being on the same wavelength as other believers but that isn't going to happen I guess. It is wearisome but like I said before, He will supply us with what we need.

AFA TF, I noticed that he left the forums and I've felt it was something I've said, but he was fresh into his study and felt compelled to teach, but I believe it was in the wrong place. I feel sad because his own faith group wasn't accepting his 'Jewish ways', but that is something most of us go through. I'm sure he will understand in the future. I do miss him being around though, but admire his humbleness.

I was quite the newbie zealot wasn't I? The training with my Rabbi is changing a lot of my thinking. I'm much quieter and more peaceful now.

I think I was trying to definitively lay out the truth all of you here were sharing. My Rabbi is teaching me that definitive isn't always necessary. Some things are open to differing interpretations. In these cases the glory of midrashic discussion has great value in searching for the truth and expanding ideas and perspectives.

I'm grateful to you all for taking time to encourage, confront, and teach me publicly and by pm.

 

[Lulav]

Not at all. You've been a great inspiration to me. I'm having trouble on my account. The new system locked me out of my account for 3-4 weeks. Now I'm in but my stuff is all missing. The techs are still working on my account. This is the first day I've been able to get mobile on the new CF.


This forum has made a huge difference in my faith and interpretation of scripture. There's many Jews and MJs here that are shaping my new understanding of Yeshua and Paul, and you're the first person here that helped me make the paradigm shift to pro-Torah by answering my questions clearly and powerfully.

Today is the first day back and I have a tonne of reading to catch up on here.

Truthfrees!! It's so good to see you haven't gone AWOL! . I went to look for you a couple of days after the switch because I saw your posts were labeled 'guest'. I felt sad because I thought you were disheartened and left CF altogether.

I can't believe you just haven't been able to get on line here. I am glad there are some here that have helped you in your walk and that you didn't become discouraged. I hope they get you fixed up real soon and you get up to speed with all the new things on here, including all these expressive smilies!

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees!! It's so good to see you haven't gone AWOL! . I went to look for you a couple of days after the switch because I saw your posts were labeled 'guest'. I felt sad because I thought you were disheartened and left CF altogether.

I can't believe you just haven't been able to get on line here. I am glad there are some here that have helped you in your walk and that you didn't become discouraged. I hope they get you fixed up real soon and you get up to speed with all the new things on here, including all these expressive smilies!

I missed you all too. You guys are family. It's bad when the system rejects you and won't let you in. I started to get a complex.

Yes, this forum turned me around and straightened out a lifetime of anti-Torah theology. I had a lot of other misunderstandings too. I have a new appreciation and understanding of Judaism. So a big "Thank you" to all of you who talked me out of error and into truth.

For every 1 teachable person who posts here, there's a lot who don't post. Teachable people usually are too shy to say anything publicly. It's not easy to come into a forum, find out I've got a lot of wrong ideas, ask questions, and make mistakes in front of everyone. Mistakes are a part of learning though.

Debaters on the other hand don't seem to be shy at all about posting their thoughts.