the rapid brain growth hypothis and the evolutinarypeak etc

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Greetings to one and all, (thread moved from somewhere else)

Hopefully I have posted in the correct section and will stimulate some discussion.

Instead of a long word heavy post I will offer short paragraphs in understandable English and see what catches and expand from there.

I will predominately be looking at issues within the human evolutionary theory and other related matters.


The larger brain hypothesis.

Around 2 million years ago it is suggested early humans began the progression from ape to human, this hypothesis is supposingly supported by a rapid (in evolutionary terms) increase in body and brain size due to environmental challenges.

If we are to be generous the “rapid” brain development was achieved in around a million years, is it reasonable to suggest the necessary brain development for survival was rapid enough to prevent extinction? Or that the intermediate physical changes (where the creature is neither adapted to standing straight nor walking on all fours and still with a stunted brain) would have lessened the chances of survival considering the many hunting animals that had already achieved an evolutionary peak?

Quite how all primates with the same starting point and challenges were not driven to walking tall, thinking big and migrating has never being answered. If evolution is a random process where all possibilities are explored (with many failing and the successful attempts carrying on to reproduce) how where all other primates left to happily carry on as before unaffected by the non-sentient evolutionary process?

Other hypothesis include a need for better social communication, yet the chimp (along with the vast majority of primates and mammals) appears to have enjoyed a complicated social structure along with the use of tools and a changing environment over millennia with the evolutionary processes “deciding” a bigger brain is not required.

Interesting to note the chimpanzee is now officially classed as endangered due to environmental stresses, evolutionary logic would suggest the chimps should start rapidly evolving to counter this natural threat.


Rapid Brain Development.

Academic wisdom tells us it took the natural evolutionary process 500 million years to develop the anthropoid maximum of 1 million neurons inside the brain, yet it also tells us that (again being generous) over the next 2 million years man acquired an additional 11 billion neurons. At the original evolutionary rate man’s brain would have needed an additional 5 billion years to naturally evolve not 2 million years.

The accepted hypothesis states that it was an evolutionary necessity due to an environmental change or threat that was the driving force yet this evolutionary decision on rapid (which is an understatement really) brain enlargement has only ever affected early man.
another argument to support the hypothesis is eating meat which is obviously a stretch.

Furthermore this rapid enlargement stopped back in ancient history yet the modern brain packed full of knowledge and experience today is no different from that of early man, would evolution really evolve a human brain millions of years in advance that would never need an upgrade regardless of the massively different environmental challenges from then to now.

It is accepted that Neanderthals had a bigger brain capacity than today’s modern man, thicker bones to handle more torque from stronger muscles and had also mastered fire, complex societal structures, utilised pitch for weapons and boats plus used a refined common language (language is commonly thought to correlate with the larger brain).

How could a bipedal evolutionary peak for the time be replaced by a smaller brained weaker unestablished species? Survival of the fittest in reverse?

Reaching an evolutionary peak.

Evolution, we are told, is an ever changing random mutation theory that tests multiple combinations of mutation allowing the well adapted to pass on its code and the failures to die out. Why then do certain participants of evolution appear to have peaked? Has evolution taken the decision a peak has being achieved?

Many so called “living fossils” have been over looked by the evolutionary process for (lets pick a round number) 40 million years. We are told that organisms such as jelly fish and sharks have not altered significantly since they came into existence. Why has the random chemical process of evolution decided to not invite them to the mutation party?

Physical perfection (if such a thing exists) would surely lead to improved brain function and an unending improvement program, considering the shark achieved this physical peak 38 million years before the earliest human, evolutionary logic would suggest the shark is a victim of the randomly occurring chemically inspired evolutionary cold shoulder.

Finger prints of the evolutionary victims.

Again if we are to believe that no sentient decisions are made in the chemically driven multiple variation version of evolution then we would see many more failures in the fossil record than we do successes.

Random mutation is the hero of the evolutionary story, yet all evidence points to a very lucky progression along the timelines, so lucky in fact that random mutation are the least likely of conclusions.

Taking Darwinian evolution at face value we should expect to find all manner of recognisable failed organic designs, if many minute mutations over a long time leads to an improved species and the failed species dies out then it stands to reason the failed inferior animals would be found in abundance.

The amazing balance of function within species needs (no wait….demands) many failed evolutionary attempts FOR EVERY SPECIES otherwise the whole evolutionary model is debunked.



Phew…. So hopefully there is some food for thought there, I have skimmed over the subjects of interest to me and am willing to flesh them out if it is desired,

Your thoughts are welcomed and if I have dropped a clanger please let me know.

Thanks

: )
 
  • Like
Reactions: fat wee robin

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Post from Jimmyd
Hi :D

Your thread probably hasn't received much attention because it's in the formal debate section.

I haven't got the time or inclination to go through your points but I don't doubt for a second that all the answers to your questions can be easily found by a bit of google research.

In my experience these 'logical' type arguments basically boil down to personal incredulity and/or ignorance.


The amazing balance of function within species needs (no wait….demands) many failed evolutionary attempts FOR EVERY SPECIES otherwise the whole evolutionary model is debunked.
Click to expand...
The Theory of Evolution has been scrutinized for over a hundred years and has only become stronger, it'll take a bit more than your 'logic' for it to be debunked.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for the reply brother

please utilise google and put my points to bed,
should only take a second.

don't tell me......... show me,
if you can.
 
Upvote 0

florida2

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,092
434
✟25,691.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Yea, I am quite sure, you just changed the minds of many and those of mainstream science.

Quick! Get the Nobel Prizes!

If there were some references and perhaps a smattering of scientific evidence would actually make me want to read this wall of text fully and respond.
 
Upvote 0

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yea, I am quite sure, you just changed the minds of many and those of mainstream science.
great post,
its just a little awkward that you were unable to address one single point from the opening post,

better luck next time brother : )
 
Upvote 0

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Quick! Get the Nobel Prizes!

If there were some references and perhaps a smattering of scientific evidence would actually make me want to read this wall of text fully and respond.

erm....did you read the opening post ?

the time frame for neural development, reaching an evolutionary peak, the missing failed evolutionary variations, evolutions alleged driving forces and why a random chemical reaction would over engineer anything...etc.....you don't recognise any of these scientific questions from your very obvious long term in depth studies ?

how strange.....

are you really unable to read 900 words ?

is it an eye problem ? (if so accept my apologies in advance : ))
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

florida2

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,092
434
✟25,691.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
erm....did you read the opening post ?

the time frame for neural development, reaching an evolutionary peak, the missing failed evolutionary variations, evolutions alleged driving forces and why a random chemical reaction would over engineer anything...etc.....you don't recognise any of these scientific questions from your very obvious long term in depth studies ?

how strange.....

are you really unable to read 900 words ?

is it an eye problem ? (if so accept my apologies in advance : ))

Read it. Still didn't see any scientific evidence or any references.

If you've got specific questions then shoot, but I'm not going to respond to every detail in one person's 'I don't like evolution yet I have no evidence or references' post.
 
Upvote 0

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Read it. Still didn't see any scientific evidence or any references.

If you've got specific questions then shoot, but I'm not going to respond to every detail in one person's 'I don't like evolution yet I have no evidence or references' post.

ha ha ha ha......good one brother,
if you re read the OP I said pick a criticism of the ToE and I would expand with additional information so as not to post a wall of text (you never specified if you struggled to read or not)
I thought the criticisms of the macro evolution hypothesis were quite obvious, actually surprised you never recognised them.

let me make it easy for you.....
and I will split one of the simplified question into two for ease.....

explain how the theoretical reductionists evolution mechanism requiring vast amounts of time and random chance has the ability to massively over design an organism ?

and, in your opinion, how does the theoretically random unthinking chemical scatter gun approach to macro evolution account for the "decision" to over engineer ?

obviously the questions are simplified and boiled down for you,
I honestly hope you post your own thoughts and opinions with many hundreds of words because I would truly enjoy the flip side of my own perspective,
which will be offered in response.
(im on the south coast of England so you will have all night from my perspective)

: )
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: davedajobauk
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
The larger brain hypothesis.

Around 2 million years ago it is suggested early humans began the progression from ape to human, this hypothesis is supposingly supported by a rapid (in evolutionary terms) increase in body and brain size due to environmental challenges.

If we are to be generous the “rapid” brain development was achieved in around a million years, is it reasonable to suggest the necessary brain development for survival was rapid enough to prevent extinction? Or that the intermediate physical changes (where the creature is neither adapted to standing straight nor walking on all fours and still with a stunted brain) would have lessened the chances of survival considering the many hunting animals that had already achieved an evolutionary peak?

You need to support these assertions. You need to show that these intermediate stages would not be adaptive in the new environment (i.e. the savanna) they were evolving in instead of just asserting it.

If evolution is a random process where all possibilities are explored (with many failing and the successful attempts carrying on to reproduce) how where all other primates left to happily carry on as before unaffected by the non-sentient evolutionary process?

First, random mutation does not guarantee that all possibilities will be explored. In fact, the process of evolution almost guarantees that not all possibilities will be explored since each generation only adds a few mutations to the DNA given to them by their ancestors.

Other hypothesis include a need for better social communication, yet the chimp (along with the vast majority of primates and mammals) appears to have enjoyed a complicated social structure along with the use of tools and a changing environment over millennia with the evolutionary processes “deciding” a bigger brain is not required.

Not all evolutionary lineages will go in the same direction. This should be obvious given the fact that if this were true then there would only be one species on Earth.

Rapid Brain Development.
Academic wisdom tells us it took the natural evolutionary process 500 million years to develop the anthropoid maximum of 1 million neurons inside the brain, yet it also tells us that (again being generous) over the next 2 million years man acquired an additional 11 billion neurons. At the original evolutionary rate man’s brain would have needed an additional 5 billion years to naturally evolve not 2 million years.

That's what the fossil evidence tells us. If you can't accurately describe the evidence, then there really isn't any reason to go any farther.
 
Upvote 0

florida2

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,092
434
✟25,691.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
ha ha ha ha......good one brother,
if you re read the OP I said pick a criticism of the ToE and I would expand with additional information so as not to post a wall of text (you never specified if you struggled to read or not)
I thought the criticisms of the macro evolution hypothesis were quite obvious, actually surprised you never recognised them.

let me make it easy for you.....
and I will split one of the simplified question into two for ease.....

explain how the theoretical reductionists evolution mechanism requiring vast amounts of time and random chance has the ability to massively over design an organism ?

and, in your opinion, how does the theoretically random unthinking chemical scatter gun approach to macro evolution account for the "decision" to over engineer ?

obviously the questions are simplified and boiled down for you,
I honestly hope you post your own thoughts and opinions with many hundreds of words because I would truly enjoy the flip side of my own perspective,
which will be offered in response.
(im on the south coast of England so you will have all night from my perspective)

: )

Define what you mean by 'over designed' and 'over engineered' and how those are empirically measured. What method are you using to measure design and how to you therefore conclude that something is 'massively over designed'?

This looks like yet another argument from incredulity. If you want to challenge scientific theory you need scientific evidence. I haven't seen anything apart from 'I don't want to accept evolution'. Evolution is not a random process. Mutations are random but natural selection is not.
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,799.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
thanks for the reply brother

please utilise google and put my points to bed,
should only take a second.

don't tell me......... show me,
if you can.

Glad to be of help. :)

I'll decline your challenge though thanks, as far as I'm concerned your points are already in bed and fast asleep.

If you're genuinely interested in the answers to your questions why not try to find out, instead of wasting your time trying to pick imaginary holes in the TOE.
 
Upvote 0

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You need to support these assertions. You need to show that these intermediate stages would not be adaptive in the new environment (i.e. the savanna) they were evolving in instead of just asserting it.

(my responses will be in bold)
straight off the bat my brother we have a problem,
simply put, why decide to evolve when the species could survive before the evolution process has even started ?
not my opinion, it is your opinion change is very slow and gradual.
when did the evolutionary process kick in on the savannah ? generation 2 ? generation 6? according to the ToE it took a million years to bear fruit.





First, random mutation does not guarantee that all possibilities will be explored. In fact, the process of evolution almost guarantees that not all possibilities will be explored since each generation only adds a few mutations to the DNA given to them by their ancestors.

either all possible chemical mutation avenues are randomly explored or decisions are being taken by a sentient entity,
you need to choose between the two.




Not all evolutionary lineages will go in the same direction. This should be obvious given the fact that if this were true then there would only be one species on Earth.
not quite,
but even you have to admit as a macro evolution believer the same biological designs are seen over and over,
like your protein that shows up in mould, plants and humans,
if a design works it will be replicated, no ?
Again the random chemical scatter gun approach appears the least likely of conclusions.



That's what the fossil evidence tells us. If you can't accurately describe the evidence, then there really isn't any reason to go any farther.
nope,
the fossil record has a chimp skull,
and it has a human skull,
you claim the brain must have tripled in size in a supernatural fashion without any supportive evidence.


I see why you would wish to sweep this under the rug.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

: D

Active Member
Nov 12, 2015
183
17
south coast UK
✟7,965.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Define what you mean by 'over designed' and 'over engineered' and how those are empirically measured. What method are you using to measure design and how to you therefore conclude that something is 'massively over designed'?

This looks like yet another argument from incredulity. If you want to challenge scientific theory you need scientific evidence. I haven't seen anything apart from 'I don't want to accept evolution'. Evolution is not a random process. Mutations are random but natural selection is not.

that was disappointing : (

I have a mountain of scientific empirical evidence just waiting to be used in rebuttal right after your pro ToE answer to the simple question previously stated (im guessing you are lost and want to back engineer any empirical evidence and supportive argument I have, am I right ?)

do I really need to describe and explain what "over designed" or "over engineered" means and how these things can be measured,
blimey, lets start on the bottom rung, and I am going to be generous because im nice like that.
You don't believe in "over design"
nor do you believe an organism is "over engineered"
because it would suggest a creator or designer taking decisions in advance of the current environmental stimuli.

cool ?
: )
 
Upvote 0