The Qur'an and being a Muslim

[farout]

Are you sure that is what the Qur'an says? Because last time I checked the interpretation of the Quar'an that terrorists hold that makes them believe killing non-muslims is doing God's will, is not held as the general view in the muslim world.

I think you are misinterpreting the passages that made you believe the Qur'an teaches christens and Jews should be killed.

Still, it is best to ask these questions to muslims. Go somewhere online where muslims are at or google muslim views on those passages.

Here is a place. Ask your questions about the Qur'an there.

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/

I do not have to ask. I have a Qur'an. Yes some Muslims don't agree with it, and some may not have even read it. But it teaches it. If one day their leaders said now is the time for all good believers of Islam to start killing non Muslims. If they were told if they did not obey they would suffer Allah's wrath, I would be willing to say they would obey the order to kill Jews and Christians! Look what's going on all over the world. It is very difficult to understand just how loyal the followers of Islam are. Mosques in the US have been proven to send money and aid to those who are trying to destroy the US. I am not misinterpreting anything. The actions of those who follow the religion of Islam, have proven; Actions speak louder than words of peace and trust.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The Qur'an sits high on the top self of our Library, there is where we keep the books we feel represent views that are unchristian to the core. A few of those book are The Book of Mormon, Todays International Version or the TNIV, and the Qur'an. We feel these are best kept for those who are mature and can see for themselves the evil or the twisted scripture these represent, IOO. (In Our Opinion)

This is the second time I saw the TNIV as bad, what is unchristian about it?

 

[Berean777]

I have a Qur'an. I have read it, and I am really concerned about what it says. If Muslims believe the Qur'an is their Holy Book do they believe what it says?

Here's my issues. The Qur'an instructs Muslims to hate Christians and Jews. Killing Christians and Jews is doing Allah's will.

How can I trust a Muslim after reading the Qur'an. Do most Muslims never read the Quran? How can a person who believes the Qur'an to be their guide book, not obey its teaching about Christians and Jews?

Rule of thumb friend. If you lived in a Muslim country and have had interactions with them on a daily basis, you will establish a common characteristic quality that stereotypes them. You will find in the day to day interaction with Muslims, that they commonly lie and think nothing of it. At times, they may not even be aware of lying themselves, it is just part of their primary discourse that is related to the context of religious culture that makes it ok for them to lie.

For an in depth study on the Islamic context of culture, you will be interested in the following.......

Deception, Lying and Taqiyya
Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Here is the link.......please I do not endorse this website and I only reference it to highlight to you that in Islam lying is a gift, a craft of wisdom that is condoned and not condemned as we do in the western culture. So you immediately can discern that the primary discourse of Muslims are diametrically opposite to the western primary discourse and therefore we have conflict of cultures.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are numerous English translations of the Qur'an available in Amazon.com. Most of the world will not read this book.

There are no translations of the Qu'ran in English or in any other language. Translation of the Holy Qu'ran is forbidden. What we have are "interpretations" of the Qu'ran in English. This has the simple application of permitting Islamic authorities to deny any understanding of the Qu'ran other than that which is contained in the Arabic version.

I have an English "interpretation" of the Qu'ran and have read it. That said, when I point out various surahs to my Muslim friends which cause them unease, they quickly correct my misunderstanding because the true understanding is not in English, but in Arabic.

 

[Why?JustWhy?]

There are no translations of the Qu'ran in English or in any other language. Translation of the Holy Qu'ran is forbidden. What we have are "interpretations" of the Qu'ran in English. This has the simple application of permitting Islamic authorities to deny any understanding of the Qu'ran other than that which is contained in the Arabic version.

I have an English "interpretation" of the Qu'ran and have read it. That said, when I point out various surahs to my Muslim friends which cause them unease, they quickly correct my misunderstanding because the true understanding is not in English, but in Arabic.

Who told you that the translation of the Quran is forbidden?
And why do feel the need of an interpretation of the Quran? Isn't it clear?
Even in Arabic, it is still NOT a miracle.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Who told you that the translation of the Quran is forbidden?
And why do feel the need of an interpretation of the Quran? Isn't it clear?
Even in Arabic, it is still NOT a miracle.

A devout Turkish Sunni Muslim scholar gave me a copy of an English "interpretation" of the Qu'ran and explained in detail the difference between a translation and an interpretation. The impossibility of translating from Arabic is that many Arabic words carry multiple meanings such that things such as "holy war" can mean outright physical warfare or one's personal struggle with one's temptations.

The Qu'ran, indeed, is not clear. If it was, there would have been no need for the Haddith, would there?

 

[Vandy]

This is the second time I saw the TNIV as bad, what is unchristian about it?

There is nothing inherently unchristian about the TNIV. A number of rigidly complimentarian groups decided that gender neutral language was a bad interpretative decision under every circumstance and have boycotted the TNIV and 2011 NIV update. I will state that I'm a complimentarian, but I try to be winsome about it rather than throwing a fit over the gender inclusive language that is usually justified by the Greek text. The biggest mistake of the TNIV committee was their handling of PR issues. They have admitted that they weren't initially as transparent as they should have been and never foresaw the amount of push-back this translation would produce. Doug Moo, the chairman of the TNIV, is an excellent Bible scholar. I don't agree with all of his theology or probably every decision the translation team made, but I can still recognize that he is a very accomplished translator of the original languages. There are Christian groups out there that have demonized Moo and the translation committee of the TNIV based on a non-salvific translation disagreement. That is what I think is unchristian.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gl...es-of-tniv-and-inclusive-niv-translators.html

 

[Vandy]

Deception, Lying and Taqiyya
Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

I have no doubt that all Muslims lie (a logical extension of all people lie) and that some do it in order to conduct acts of terror in the name of Allah. With that said, let me push back a little. I took a brief look at your website, and it is obviously a right-wing propaganda machine. Is it at all possible that maybe this website has an ax to grind in misrepresenting Taqiyya? I only say this because from what I've read in the past, Taqiyya applies only under persecution or duress.

 

[farout]

Rule of thumb friend. If you lived in a Muslim country and have had interactions with them on a daily basis, you will establish a common characteristic quality that stereotypes them. You will find in the day to day interaction with Muslims, that they commonly lie and think nothing of it. At times, they may not even be aware of lying themselves, it is just part of their primary discourse that is related to the context of religious culture that makes it ok for them to lie.

For an in depth study on the Islamic context of culture, you will be interested in the following.......

Deception, Lying and Taqiyya
Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Here is the link.......please I do not endorse this website and I only reference it to highlight to you that in Islam lying is a gift, a craft of wisdom that is condoned and not condemned as we do in the western culture. So you immediately can discern that the primary discourse of Muslims are diametrically opposite to the western primary discourse and therefore we have conflict of cultures.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

I think you are coming from personal experience? You have much that only comes by personally experiencing these things or someone has taught you well. Thank you.

I can not go into detail, I am no longer going to discuss anything about Islam, Muslims, and the Quran. As there is too much information about us, not only on CF, but on the net. It is alarming how easy anyone can make contact. Therefore from now on I will not dialogue of the things above.

 

[ChristianSwede]

Most muslims do not interprent the Quran that way. Do not worry they are not out to kill you.

 

[Berean777]

I have no doubt that all Muslims lie (a logical extension of all people lie) and that some do it in order to conduct acts of terror in the name of Allah. With that said, let me push back a little. I took a brief look at your website, and it is obviously a right-wing propaganda machine. Is it at all possible that maybe this website has an ax to grind in misrepresenting Taqiyya? I only say this because from what I've read in the past, Taqiyya applies only under persecution or duress.

I don't know, I just came across it.

 

[rturner76]

Here the Quran talks about killing nonbelievers

89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

Then there are exeptions:

90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.


At the time Muhammed and his followers were being hunted by the Pagan tribes of the desert. The new religion (Is,am) was growing and various tribes were uniting and joining his cause but he had very powerful enemies. Rivals would chase him out of Mecca. He united all the tribesmen in Medina where he settled and returned with a large army and took Mecca. It was under these conditions that the Quran was written.

Islam was not just a religion. It was a way of life and a form of government which was far more civilized than the pagans of the area had ever seen. As they traveled, they converted cities until and after Muhammeds death and Islam continued to spread through northern Africa until it threatened Europe by conquering Spain. The Spanish Moors brought Arabic math (algebra) music and poetry that spread throughout Europe waking them up from the dark ages. Many of the English and French among other the Nobel men of Western Europe were sending their heirs to be educated in Spain and Portugal at that time. Ushering in the Renaissance era

The intellectual achievements of the Moors in Spain had a lasting effect; education was universal in Moorish Spain, while in Christian Europe, 99 percent of the population was illiterate, and even kings could neither read nor write. At a time when Europe had only two universities, the Moors had seventeen, located in Almeria, Cordova, Granada, Juen, Malaga, Seville, and Toledo.

In the 10th and 11th centuries, public libraries in Europe were non-existent, while Moorish Spain could boast of more than 70, including one in Cordova that housed hundreds of thousands of manuscripts. Universities in Paris and Oxford were established after visits by scholars to Moorish Spain.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I have no doubt that all Muslims lie (a logical extension of all people lie) and that some do it in order to conduct acts of terror in the name of Allah. With that said, let me push back a little. I took a brief look at your website, and it is obviously a right-wing propaganda machine. Is it at all possible that maybe this website has an ax to grind in misrepresenting Taqiyya? I only say this because from what I've read in the past, Taqiyya applies only under persecution or duress.

The best people for a Christian to as about when it comes to muslims, are missionaries who witness to them daily, IMHO. People should be looking for those sort of sites for information on islam, the site like he shared seems to lean foolks towards to a selective perception fallacy.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Isn't there a church or monastary somewhere that has been relatively safe from all muslims terrorists because of a binding contract they hold written by Muhammad himself that says that it cannot be touched? I think its in Egypt.

 

[Vandy]

Isn't there a church or monastary somewhere that has been relatively safe from all muslims terrorists because of a binding contract they hold written by Muhammad himself that says that it cannot be touched? I think its in Egypt.

I no undrstnd the wrds comin outa yur mouth.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I no undrstnd the wrds comin outa yur mouth.

Ah nevermind.. apparently it is quite disputed on whether it is real or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad

 

[SolomonVII]

I have a Qur'an. I have read it, and I am really concerned about what it says. If Muslims believe the Qur'an is their Holy Book do they believe what it says?

Here's my issues. The Qur'an instructs Muslims to hate Christians and Jews. Killing Christians and Jews is doing Allah's will.

How can I trust a Muslim after reading the Qur'an. Do most Muslims never read the Quran? How can a person who believes the Qur'an to be their guide book, not obey its teaching about Christians and Jews?

I had a Coptic friend from Egypt once, just an acquaintance really.
And his observation was that no, most Muslims hadn't really read the Koran. The thing is, it is in Arabic and most Muslims in the world do not even understand Arabic. To the extent that they memorize it, they are memorizing sounds.

Most Muslims have been illiterate in any language until the modern era of more universal education.

It was his belief that as more and more Muslims actually educate themselves onto what the Koran really says, and as they become instructed by imams who educate themselves into what the book is actually instructing, they will be just as disgusted by it as many Christians are.

Most Muslims, like most people, are just trying to be good people, and it would be very hard for them to square away following the dictates of the Koran vis-a-vis the infidel and the non-believing people of the book and what they know in their own hearts to be good.
But then there are the others, who are becoming educated too.....

....yea, and we know where that is leading..

Of course I am biased though. I am definitely not a fan of the koran either.

 

[Sketcher]

There were a couple of Muslim guys I grew up with. They were pretty normal, decent guys. The only notable differences were that they couldn't eat any pork products (including gelatin) and their dad got them up at 5:00 AM to pray. Their dad was more devout than they were, but he was still pretty cool. I wouldn't expect any violence out of them.

I also understand that they are not representative of the world's Muslim population. I don't know if their interpretation of Islam is the true one, or if Al Qaida's is. I just know which of them I prefer to live next to.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I had a Coptic friend from Egypt once, just an acquaintance really.
And his observation was that no, most Muslims hadn't really read the Koran. The thing is, it is in Arabic and most Muslims in the world do not even understand Arabic. To the extent that they memorize it, they are memorizing sounds.

Most Muslims have been illiterate in any language until the modern era of more universal education.

It was his belief that as more and more Muslims actually educate themselves onto what the Koran really says, and as they become instructed by imams who educate themselves into what the book is actually instructing, they will be just as disgusted by it as many Christians are.

Most Muslims, like most people, are just trying to be good people, and it would be very hard for them to square away following the dictates of the Koran vis-a-vis the infidel and the non-believing people of the book and what they know in their own hearts to be good.
But then there are the others, who are becoming educated too.....

....yea, and we know where that is leading..

Of course I am biased though. I am definitely not a fan of the koran either.

I know 6 yeas ago.. 30% of Afghanistan's population knew had to read and write. Which explains a lot. I think it depends on the country and location. Some have read the book, but it was translated in french...which is sort of wrong to them, but I have learned recently in another post most muslims in Senegal are sufi, which would explain why he didn't see it as a big deal.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I know 6 yeas ago.. 30% of Afghanistan's population knew had to read and write. Which explains a lot. I think it depends on the country and location. Some have read the book, but it was translated in french...which is sort of wrong to them, but I have learned recently in another post most muslims in Senegal are sufi, which would explain why he didn't see it as a big deal.

The native language in Afghanistan is not Arabic. The actual literacy rate of Arabic in Afghanistan is far from 30%.