The pyramids were grain silos! More wisdom from Ben carson.

JackRT

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Scripture, please?

Both Exodus 12:37 and Numbers 1:46 say the number was ~600,000, NOT 3-3.5 million.

Exodus 12:37 The people of Israel traveled from Rameses to Succoth. There were about 600,000 men on foot, and also the women and children. 38 And a mixed group of people went with them, and very many flocks and cattle.

Yes, 600,000 men plus their wives and children. Guessing at an average family size of five or more, we already have 3 million plus. There were also other people of unspecified numbers. Numbers 1:46 confirms that the numbering is men only. I stand by the numbers I first cited.
 
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Xalith

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Exodus 12:37 The people of Israel traveled from Rameses to Succoth. There were about 600,000 men on foot, and also the women and children. 38 And a mixed group of people went with them, and very many flocks and cattle.

Yes, 600,000 men plus their wives and children. Guessing at an average family size of five or more, we already have 3 million plus. There were also other people of unspecified numbers. Numbers 1:46 confirms that the numbering is men only. I stand by the numbers I first cited.

You're assuming every man was part of a family of 5... think about it, they were slaves before they were released. Back during Moses's time, they were trying to limit how fast they could grow, and I bet the slave life probably did not allow for a lot of time doing family stuff. I think it is wrong to assume everybody had a family of 5 to be honest.
 
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JackRT

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You're assuming every man was part of a family of 5... think about it, they were slaves before they were released. Back during Moses's time, they were trying to limit how fast they could grow, and I bet the slave life probably did not allow for a lot of time doing family stuff. I think it is wrong to assume everybody had a family of 5 to be honest.

I was deliberately trying to be conservative.
 
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AV1611VET

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Sorry AV, but the pyramids as grain silos is silly.
You're entitled to your opinion, my friend, as well as mine.
Goonie said:
Thee is no evidence that once built the insides were at anytime significantly modified,
Yes ... that old "e word" raises its ugly head.

It is a great stumbling block in the way of understanding His_story.
Goonie said:
... the pyramids never had the storage for grain.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Goonie said:
Archaeologists have found grain silos in Egypt, they are not the pyramids.
Yes, I would assume regular grain silos were everywhere prior to (and after) the ones Joseph built.
Goonie said:
How much more absurd is it to believe that rather than building cheap grain silos, as have been found by archaeologists, the egyptians/Joseph chose to spend a massive chunk of Egypt resources on massive stone structures, with little storage facilities?
As we're fond of saying:

Little is much when God is in it.

If God helped them build the pyramids, as He helped Noah build the Ark and Bezaleel build the Tabernacle, then I'm sure it was no problem at all for Joseph & company to build the pyramids.
 
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Xalith

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I was deliberately trying to be conservative.

I still think you are way over-estimating.

You are of the assumption that every able-bodied man had a wife, and every man+wife had 3 children <25 years old and/or female.

That's the only way you can get 3 million out of 600,000 men is to assume that each man had 4 family members (and therefore get 5x the stated population).

I highly doubt that each of the 603,550 had 4 family members not eligible for the census.
 
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AV1611VET

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I still think you are way over-estimating.

You are of the assumption that every able-bodied man had a wife, and every man+wife had 3 children <25 years old and/or female.

That's the only way you can get 3 million out of 600,000 men is to assume that each man had 4 family members (and therefore get 5x the stated population).

I highly doubt that each of the 603,550 had 4 family members not eligible for the census.
QV please:
According to Exodus 12:37–38, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people. Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.
SOURCE
 
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Xalith

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@AV1611VET : Eh... to be honest, while I normally agree with your posts... I just don't see any reason, motivation, or practicality behind making the pyramids for grain storage. They had far better and far simpler methods of grain storage to be honest.

Joseph knew that they were on a time limit of 7 years to get as much grain as they could stored up for the 7 years of famine. He wouldn't have wasted ridiculous time building huge structures that have less than 10% of the entire structure as storage space.

If you were on a time limit, and you knew you had a limited amount of time to get as much as you could, would you waste time building elaborate structures that are very inefficient? Of course not. Me? I'd dig a giant hole, fill the sides of this hole with bricks, make staircases along the outside of the hole to make sure you can get down in there no matter how much grain is actually in said hole, and just start throwing grain in it by the bucketloads. I wouldn't waste time building this ridiculously over-the-top flashy decoration just to hold a fraction of the grain a traditional granary would hold.
 
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AV1611VET

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They had far better and far simpler methods of grain storage to be honest.
Are you saying that the silos that existed in Egypt at the time were sufficient to store enough food to feed the entire world?
Xalith said:
Joseph knew that they were on a time limit of 7 years to get as much grain as they could stored up for the 7 years of famine. He wouldn't have wasted ridiculous time building huge structures that have less than 10% of the entire structure as storage space.
As I pointed out before, these pyramids could have been hollow at the time; then refitted for [whatever] after the famine was over.
Xalith said:
If you were on a time limit, and you knew you had a limited amount of time to get as much as you could, would you waste time building elaborate structures that are very inefficient?
You mean, like the Ark?

Yes.

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
 
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Xalith

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Are you saying that the silos that existed in Egypt at the time were sufficient to store enough food to feed the entire world?

The beauty of digging a big hole, is that if it ain't big enough, you just dig another, or dig a bigger one.

As I pointed out before, these pyramids could have been hollow at the time; then refitted for [whatever] after the famine was over.

Except the pyramids' construction did not really allow for this. Ever watched videos on scientific data on the Great Pyramid at Giza, and how they were forced to use really thick and strong stones for the King's Chamber because otherwise, the weight of the brick ontop of it would have collapsed the chamber?

You mean, like the Ark?

The Ark was functional in every way. If you take the measurements to a ship-builder, he will tell you that the measurements are actually perfect for building a ship that is sea-faring in a physics sense, because that ship would be incredibly difficult to capsize because it is made in perfect proportions.

The pyramids, however, are an over-the-top decoration that has little functionality, and no the pyramids couldn't be hollow; they would have collapsed if they were. If you wanna store grain, the best and easiest way to do it is to dig a giant hole and fill the sides of the hole in with brick.

Why do you think Egyptians stopped making Pyramids and started burying phaoroahs in the Valley of the Dead in underground tombs? Because it was easier than building giant monolithic structures.
 
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Goonie

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The beauty of digging a big hole, is that if it ain't big enough, you just dig another, or dig a bigger one.



Except the pyramids' construction did not really allow for this. Ever watched videos on scientific data on the Great Pyramid at Giza, and how they were forced to use really thick and strong stones for the King's Chamber because otherwise, the weight of the brick ontop of it would have collapsed the chamber?



The Ark was functional in every way. If you take the measurements to a ship-builder, he will tell you that the measurements are actually perfect for building a ship that is sea-faring in a physics sense, because that ship would be incredibly difficult to capsize because it is made in perfect proportions.

The pyramids, however, are an over-the-top decoration that has little functionality, and no the pyramids couldn't be hollow; they would have collapsed if they were. If you wanna store grain, the best and easiest way to do it is to dig a giant hole and fill the sides of the hole in with brick.

Why do you think Egyptians stopped making Pyramids and started burying phaoroahs in the Valley of the Dead in underground tombs? Because it was easier than building giant monolithic structures.
Agreed, about the pyramids, no comment on the ark:)
 
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AV1611VET

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Why do you think Egyptians stopped making Pyramids ...
Because God was no longer in it, and they found out they couldn't do it under their own power?

Xalith, I hope you're seeing that what I'm really saying is very simple:

God did it.

If I have to, I can take this to another level ... like I did the Ark ... and claim the pyramids that God built were TARDIS booths.

But I won't.

Yet.
 
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Goonie

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Because God was no longer in it, and they found out they couldn't do it under their own power?

Xalith, I hope you're seeing that what I'm really saying is very simple:

God did it.

If I have to, I can take this to another level ... like I did the Ark ... and claim the pyramids that God built were TARDIS booths.

But I won't.

Yet.
Please, where in the Bible does it say god built grain silos? I thought Joseph did that. Why add miracles that are not needed? As Xalith has pointed out there are far more practical ways of storing grain.
 
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Xalith

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Because God was no longer in it, and they found out they couldn't do it under their own power?

Xalith, I hope you're seeing that what I'm really saying is very simple:

God did it.

If I have to, I can take this to another level ... like I did the Ark ... and claim the pyramids that God built were TARDIS booths.

But I won't.

Yet.

And again, I ask you to answer the simple question of "Why Pyramids?" when holes dug in the ground are a much easier and more practical solution.

Think back across the pages of the Bible. When has God (with the exception of Solomon's Temple) done anything flashy for the sake of being flashy when it comes to buildings and such? The Ark (Noah's) was very straightforward, it wasn't lined with gold or precious stones or anything like that. It was sized and shaped exactly as it needed to be to carry out its mission.

The Tabernacle was made in such a way that it could be picked up and moved, and set up again on a whim (even though it did have precious stones, gold, brass and fine cloths used in its construction).

When God tells someone to build something, He does it for practicality and usefulness, rather than flashiness with the exception of Solomon's Temple, and if you ask me, Solomon's Temple was to prove a point. But that's a whole 'nuther can of worms I won't get into right now.

What I am saying, however, is that if God wanted Joseph to store grain for 7 years of famine, he wouldn't have told Joseph to build one of the most impractical structures Mankind has ever built that I am aware of, other than perhaps Solomon's Temple. That just doesn't sound like His style to me.
 
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AV1611VET

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Please, where in the Bible does it say god built grain silos?
It doesn't have to.

Do you think we could build them today on manpower alone?
Goonie said:
I thought Joseph did that.
Joseph was the human element.
Goonie said:
Why add miracles that are not needed?
Fair enough.

You've got seven years to build (and fill) those things on manpower alone.

Let's see you do it.
Goonie said:
As Xalith has pointed out there are far more practical ways of storing grain.
And there were far more practical ways to build an Ark too, wasn't there?

You guys are desperately trying to eliminate the Divine element from this equation, so you can accuse Mr. Carson of being off his rocker, aren't you?
 
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AV1611VET

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Think back across the pages of the Bible. When has God (with the exception of Solomon's Temple) done anything flashy for the sake of being flashy when it comes to buildings and such?
Suit yourself.

You guys are the ones who [apparently] think Ben Carson is nuts.

Not I.
 
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Xalith

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And there were far more practical ways to build an Ark too, wasn't there?

Wha...? What does "how to build the Ark" have anything to do with why they'd build pyramids instead of digging holes for the granaries?

The Bible doesn't really say how to build the Ark, it merely gives the size and directions for its construction, and again, everything with the exception of pitching the inside of the Ark is pure 100% practicality and functionality.

I'm very confused as to why you are comparing the Ark to the Pyramids, and trying to say the Ark was just as impractical? I assume you are talking about Noah's Ark and not the Ark of the Covenant, right? If you mean the latter, well. God wanted a decent sized box with a large gold lid on top of it for symbolism (that and it is a replica of the one in Heaven).

As for why, well... God had a very specific reason as to each detail of the Tabernacle (and later, Solomon's Temple). A further study of the Bible reveals that the Tabernacle/Temple and everything in it is a prediction of Christ, and it is a replica of the Temple we will see during the Millenium and the one in Heaven.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Ben Carson reaffirms his belief that the pyramids were built as grain silos by Joseph.http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...pyramids-were-grain-stores-not-pharoahs-tombs
Wow I just covered this topic in another thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/joseph-imhotep.7916371/#post-68828021

11847726_f520.jpg
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Ben Carson is either playing games or is - I can't think of a way to put this politely - incredibly stupid...

He claims that he came up with the idea for a musical based on the story of Joseph and his coat of many colors during a surgical consultation with a patient named Jacob Brandman … in 1998 (30 years after Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat premiered). When pushed for comment on this issue, Carson responded that he was in fact aware of the existing musical production in 1998, but that “The Bible calls it a coat of many colors, but in those days the only colors were black and white, as you can see in old television footage. My belief is that the coat was black, white and brown – the first time anyone had ever seen brown. That story has yet to be told.

In 2009 he wrote an essay ... claiming that the Great Sphinx of Giza was not a creature with the body of a lion and the head of a human, but instead “an ugly cat with a hat on. The confusion stems from the fact that anything looks human with a hat on. Put a hat on a turtle, a monkey, a bat, tell me I’m wrong.
(from Fact check: Ben Carson's claim that the pyramids were used to store grain).

Playing games, or unbelievably stupid? You be the judge.

The 'not of this world' problem I have with the idea of pyramids as grain silos, is structural.

It's conceivable that a mad god-pharoah could order that the existing convenient, local, well-protected, grain stores should be abandoned in favour of building the worlds biggest, most inconvenient, and most impratical grain store, at huge expense, outside the city, in a ceremonial area dedicated to the gods themselves, larger but with a similar shape to the tombs of previous pharoahs elsewhere, to house more grain than would ever be available to put in it, or would ever be needed... pretty mad, but it's conceivable... barely (it makes building a massive stone pyramid as your tomb and gateway to the afterlife seem refreshingly reasonable).

But this was an order of magnitude or more bigger than any storage structure of the time, and made of stone, a very poor choice for a large storage silo, given its structural properties. A non-starter. Earlier structures show that the Egyptians had been building up to large pyramids for some time, and learning from their mistakes. These structures were all built around a solid central core, and given past efforts, a solid structure the size of the Great Pyramid would have been a bleeding-edge structural engineering achievement at that time. They did figure out that, by corballing the stones, they could create voids for ceremonial galleries and burial chambers, but these internal spaces were tiny compared to the structure. Quite unsuitable for grain storage, too.
 
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AV1611VET

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These structures were all built around a solid central core, and given past efforts, a solid structure the size of the Great Pyramid would have been a bleeding-edge structural engineering achievement at that time.
Even with God out of the equation, the pyramids could have been built.

From the top down.

That is, they started out as hills and were shaped into pyramids.

QV theory #5 here.
 
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joshua 1 9

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And again, I ask you to answer the simple question of "Why Pyramids?" when holes dug in the ground are a much easier and more practical solution.

Think back across the pages of the Bible. When has God (with the exception of Solomon's Temple) done anything flashy for the sake of being flashy when it comes to buildings and such? The Ark (Noah's) was very straightforward, it wasn't lined with gold or precious stones or anything like that. It was sized and shaped exactly as it needed to be to carry out its mission.

The Tabernacle was made in such a way that it could be picked up and moved, and set up again on a whim (even though it did have precious stones, gold, brass and fine cloths used in its construction).

When God tells someone to build something, He does it for practicality and usefulness, rather than flashiness with the exception of Solomon's Temple, and if you ask me, Solomon's Temple was to prove a point. But that's a whole 'nuther can of worms I won't get into right now.

What I am saying, however, is that if God wanted Joseph to store grain for 7 years of famine, he wouldn't have told Joseph to build one of the most impractical structures Mankind has ever built that I am aware of, other than perhaps Solomon's Temple. That just doesn't sound like His style to me.
Why don't you study the grain silos first and then try and figure it out. The main thing is to look at the date they were built and then decide if that is when Joseph was alive in Egypt.

https://josephandisraelinegypt.wordpress.com/category/grain-silos-2/page/2/

20121023204532-m2ts-still005.jpg
 
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