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The Prosperity Doctrine

Discussion in 'Spirit Filled / Charismatic Debate (READ ONLY)' started by Oscarr, Aug 29, 2011.

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  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    If you or anyone would like a good focus/viewpoint on what Biblical Prosperity should look like, one of the best resources around (IMHO) would be seen here in the ministry known as "Generous Giving."

    On the wealth of Solomon..
    1 Kings 10
    Solomon's Splendor

    14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents, [d] 15 not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the land.

    16 King Solomon made two hundred large shields of hammered gold; six hundred bekas [e] of gold went into each shield. 17 He also made three hundred small shields of hammered gold, with three minas [f] of gold in each shield. The king put them in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon.

    18 Then the king made a great throne inlaid with ivory and overlaid with fine gold. 19 The throne had six steps, and its back had a rounded top. On both sides of the seat were armrests, with a lion standing beside each of them. 20 Twelve lions stood on the six steps, one at either end of each step. Nothing like it had ever been made for any other kingdom. 21 All King Solomon's goblets were gold, and all the household articles in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon were pure gold. Nothing was made of silver, because silver was considered of little value in Solomon's days. 22 The king had a fleet of trading ships [g] at sea along with the ships of Hiram. Once every three years it returned, carrying gold, silver and ivory, and apes and baboons.

    23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. 24 The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart. 25 Year after year, everyone who came brought a gift—articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules.

    According to the NIV Bible in 1 Kings 10:13-15 and 2 Chronicles 9:12-14, King Solomon received 666 talents (t) of gold per year as salary. He also received other money from various merchants, traders and surrounding governments.

    If we just look at his annual salary, one talent of gold is approximately equal to 34.5 kg. One kilogram converts to 1109 troy ounces (ozt). At market prices from 2yrs ago (August 2009), one troy ounce of gold traded for about $960 U.S. Dollars (USD). Multiplying $960 x 1109ozt x 666t = 709,050,024 or roughly 709 million dollars per year.

    One must keep in mind that this was only his annual salary, not including any 'bonuses' or investments. As King Solomon ruled for 40 years, that'd be lile 40 billion during his lifetime...and if you take into account all the extra income he surely would have received, I'd guess his net worth to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 billion.

    Putting it into perspective, Bill Gates is currently the richest man in the world with a net worth of maybe 40 billion. Of course its the case that Solomon stewarded the nation in having others under Him to handle certain affairs, as well as others set up to provide for him (as seen in 1 Kings 4:22 )---but it was all done regardless in the name of the Lord...AND in the name of the King. He was indeed loaded.

    I still crack up at some of the things the man seemed to have money for. As I recently read 1 Kings 10:22 and was amazed.
    For the king’s ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks. (2 Chronicles 9:21 KJV)
    Though I was confused on why a king like Solomon needed apes/baboons for display--unless he was a "Jane Goodall" type of person---I could definately dig how he loved to collect peacocks. Institute of Creation had some interesting things to say on the issue...as said here, in brief excerpt:

    "For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks" (II Chronicles 9:21).

    This is a fascinating verse intended to help the reader sense something of the almost incredible wealth of King Solomon

    Among other indications of his riches, he had been able to develop an Israelite navy that could sail to distant lands, returning with exotic and valuable cargoes. One wonders whether some of the items of gold and silver and ivory, and perhaps even the peacocks, would be diverted to please his 700 wives and 300 concubines.

    But what about the apes? This is the only reference in the Bible to apes (except for a parallel passage in I Kings 10:22), and scholars are uncertain whether the "apes" were true apes, or perhaps monkeys or baboons. But why would Solomon go to such expense to import apes instead of more useful animals (he had a great number of fine horses, for example)? Did he maintain a zoo? He imported ivory, so why not elephants?

    Could it possibly be that the king, or some of his own scholars, were interested in studying possible ape-human relationships? We don't have any evidence of such investigations or speculations, of course, but the Bible does indicate the wide-ranging extent of Solomon's scientific and religious interests. He studied, perhaps wrote, and "spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes" (I Kings 4:33). And with so many wives, and concubines practicing numerous pantheistic religions, he must have heard of such evolutionary beliefs in other lands.

    In any case, among his last words were the following: "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. . . " (Ecclesiastes 12:1).


    Hoping I'd be able to own one someday and be able to have a family who could handle it. It may sound wild/odd to some....but I do have a bit of a thing for them. They are very beautiful animals and its wild to see them in action. As it turns out, they're now becoming something of a surprise to others wondering where they are at... especially in light of what has happened with others now buying/raising them as much as chickens. Some cute examples:









     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  2. Tallen

    Tallen Newbie

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    Even if one accepts this reasoning, which is a genetic fallacy to begin with, Israel's wealth was not Solomon's personal possession.

    Blessings.
     
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Would have to respectfully disagree. By your logic, your statement about the wealth of Solomon being akin to a modern day athelete (as said here in #35 ) is just as suspect.

    But if trying to claim genetic fallacy and that context isn't considered, then its necessary to show from the scriptures just how much power a king had---and just how much in his kingdom really belonged to hi, to do as he wished. There is NO Biblical support that the wealth of Solomon belonged to Israel. Israel benefited from his stewardship, but He also owned significant amounts---and as He was the king/could do whatever he desired (just as He did in building his home/palace through FORCED labor, 1 Kings 3:1-3 /1 Kings 7 /1 Kings 9:9-11 /1 Kings 9:14-16 /1 Kings 9:23-25 /1 Kings 12:2 ) that later caused civil unrest due to the treatment others went through ), trying to make His wealth out as if he was simply collecting for the people is not historical in any way.


    One can see this plainly when it comes to I Kings 9:24. As it concerns his marrying a daughter from Egypt--a pagan who didn't serve the Lord and something GOD EXPLICTLY warned against (Deuteronomy 7:3-4, I Kings 3:1)----Solomon used the wealth of Israel for himself. Because she worshiped the gods of Egypt, and thus cannot be allowed to live in David’s quarters where the ark of God has been kept, Solomon used the WEALTH of the nation to finance another expensive palace being built...furthering the dynamics of his bad marriage ( II Chronicles 8:11-15)..... There was no committee to say "Solomon, we disagree with how you're using OUR Collective wealth" :) (as if he was simply a figure head or only a steward of what the people had)--for He was the king and did as he pleased. In that instance, as King, he felt it was appropriate to get involved in the use of public funds in order to build exotic palaces for his foreign wives.

    Going alongside that, again, is the issue of conscripted labor---as II Chronicles 2:1-2 mention. For although David apparently did use forced labor (as seen in 2 Samuel 20:24 where there is a cryptic remark that Adoram was over the forced labor), Solomon makes it a centerpiece of his governmental policies. 150,000 citizens are forced to work as stonecutters and laborers in the hill country, and 3600 were conscripted to be foremen. In many ways, this is very much like the arrangement in Egypt where Hebrew supervisors were put over the Hebrew slaves. II Chronicles 2:17-18 further give info on the issue, as seen when it makes clear that Solomon only uses foreigners for the forced labor, based on a census he has taken for the purpose. 150,000 were laborers, while 3600 were “overseers to make the people work.”


    God's gift of wisdom to Solomon did not mean that he couldn't make mistakes. He had been given great possibilities as the king of God's chosen people, but with them came great responsibilities; unfortunately, he tended to pursue the former and neglected the latter. While becoming famous as the builder of the temple and the palace, he became infamous as a leader who excessively taxed and worked his people. Visitors from distant lands came to admire this wise king, while his own people were gradually alienated from him.


    No one in Judaism is of the mindset that Israel's wealth was not Solomon's personal possession in a number of ways, seeing how many have noted that Solomon did whatever he saw FIT with it---including doing things that were already against the law for a king in Deuteronomy 17, such as multiplying horses and mistreating his people to build his palace for himself/His wife. This is exactly in line with the concept of a monarch, who does as he please/what he feels is in the best interest of his nation as well as Himself...and Samuel the prophet discussed that plainly in I Samuel 8 when it came to discussing exactly what kings were going to do in the future.
    1 Samuel 8:10-18/1 Samuel 8:16




    10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[a] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18

    This played out exactly, from the time of Saul to the time of David--as they often did AS THEY PLEASED when it came to taking things from themselves/benefiting from what the people had. Its seen very much in the life of the first monarch, Saul, as he did just as Samuel noted. Taking any brave man he saw into his service (I Samuel 14:52)---and Solomon did the same, as it concerns his making slave laborers to build (II Chronicles 2:17-18) or giving away cities to others even if people had property/land in them already (as seen in I Kings 9:10-15). To say that the wealth of Solomon was really Israel's doesn't line up historically with the practices done by kings when it comes to a nation's wealth being used for the king. Another example is I Kings 21:7-15, which echos the thought of kings doing as they pleased.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  4. gennaoanothen

    gennaoanothen Jesus-my-Lord

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    as usal double G, great response. with great info.
     
  5. Tallen

    Tallen Newbie

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    It's good that you can see that doing these types of exercises are suspect and fallacious in nature, whether it is you or me doing them.

    Blessings.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran

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    Thank you for your post. It is insightful. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not always the best thing to do when looking at different theological viewpoints.

    I am not anti-WOF. I think that there are many great things about it, and multitudes of souls have been saved, because people have believed God's Word, taken it literally, and gone out and won souls for Christ. Puts a lot of "orthodox" folks to shame.

    As you say, the fault is the way some interpret the principles of WOF. And, might I say, that any movement that glorifies Christ and wins territory from the devil will come up against fierce opposition from religious, theologically perfectionist spirits that will try and convince people that the WOF movement is dangerous and should not be trusted.

    My view is that any movement that causes multitudes of conversions to Christ must have a lot of the Holy Spirit in it.

    I think that it is best to celebrate our similarities and strengths, rather than hassle about our differences.

    God moves how He wants to move and He is no respecter of persons, denominations or movements. If He decides to use the principles of WOF to bring souls to Christ, then we have to support that and praise God for it.

    I have to say that in all my 45 years of being in the workforce, most of which I have been a Christian, I have never been without a job, and never been in a situation where I have not had enough money to do the things that are important to me. I remember a number of years ago when our church was building its manse and needed $35,000 dollars in order to avoid a mortgage, I felt led in a meeting to ask God specifically for the money, and in two to three months it had all come in and the manse was freehold by the time it was built. I believe that I received a rhema word from God, believed it, asked for the funds in faith, and God stepped up and provided it.

    Just recently, the Lord decided it was time for me to get a good training course in Healing, Spiritual Warfare and what the Lord is doing in the church today. I started buying second-hand Christian books on those topics, and money started arriving to enable me to buy nearly $500 worth of books, covering those topics with the best range of modern authors. It has been a wonderful time of refreshing and receiving insights through a stream of rhema words from God about those areas.

    So the Lord will provide all the money we need for us to accomplish His will in any situation. I am firmly convinced of that.

    The only reservation I have about speaking things into being, is that we need to seek and fellowship with God on a personal level to get that rhema word from God into our hearts which enables us to make the right confession of faith, and know that God will honour it and bring what we say to pass.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  7. gennaoanothen

    gennaoanothen Jesus-my-Lord

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    that was a nice post Oscarr

    I agree I have seen the Lord provide much finances during ministry work, each step of the way the money rolled in and not from donations, just blessing my hands to make it.

    I have a library somewhat of healing books, and pray for others for healing, as I have been healed myself via James 5:14

    not all of my healing books are word faith
    one that I liked was "the healing reawakening" by Francis MacNutt

    I had posted some links to various healing books that are free to download or read online as they are out of copyright, due to age. they are from the late 1800's time period, some from faith cure, some from others. I had noticed you had made mention of the believe that sickness and suffering for piety, you did not agree with, which was a common belief in the 1800's there is a link there to "daughter of afflicition" which shows that belief in church history, also shows how brutal medicine was at that time period.
    faith cure was quite anti doctor, but the medicine and practice of the doctors at that time period was incorrect for sure, inflicting pain and giving doses of poison was considered medicine. I believe it was around this time period that medical practices had been changed, and healing houses of prayer were being established by various Christians, perhaps healing was being restored to the church of course with much resistance from within the church.
    here is a link to some of those older books, they pre date word faith, if you care to view them.
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7587393/#post58381176
     
  8. Lean Forward

    Lean Forward Cultural Christian

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    "have a need ? Plant a seed!" ;)
     
  9. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Legend Supporter

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    you have the right of it Oscarr. So many people have a wrong notion of what prosperity really is, but it's so very simple when you think of it. in fact, God has already told us what prosperity is.

    prosperity is just a full cup, pressed down and shaken togather, and running over.
    so very simple, not complicated at all, and certainly not what the world views as prosperity.

    maybe that's the whole problem in a nutshell. So many people these days are looking for the kind of prosperity that the world loves insted of the kind of prosperity that God loves to give us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  10. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Legend Supporter

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    sorry, double post.
     
  11. AdamKane

    AdamKane New Member

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    The prosperity doctrine is a weird conglomeration of truth and lies.
     
  12. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Legend Supporter

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    nope. better read your Bible again, Tallen. God's promise of wealth was given to Solomon, not to Israel.
     
  13. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Legend Supporter

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    do you have any Biblical citations for that line of reasoning?
     
  14. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Legend Supporter

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    which lies? care to name them?
     
  15. rturner76

    rturner76 Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Feeling like you need to pray for money to become rich is nonsence. Case in point:

    Repost from One Atheist making a difference - Bill Gates' World of Possibility

    Bill Gates, the mega-wealthy atheist volunteer | Atheist Volunteers

    Money comes to those who work for it. Now I will say that leading a moral Christian life will put in position to be a trustworthy, punctual, hard working employee and/or moral business owner who runs their business with integrity, self discipline, and high moral character. This will lead you to financial prosperity no doubt about it. it's not because you asked for wealth and it dropped in your lap.

    So there is truth to the cause and effect of how you live your life producing a positive outcome.

    What really burns me up is when these people (I'll refrain from naming names for now) convince gramma to send in her grocery money because she will plant a seed that will come back and buy her ten fold groceries. Like God is selling blessings at wholesale prices. I have seen them actually say don't expect your prayers to be answered until you "activate" your blessing by sewing a seed of faith. That is wrong. People need to pray because God came to Earth as Jesus Christ and saved your soul. Not so your Pastor can get a Bentley folks.
     
  16. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

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  17. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

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  18. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran

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    Like it or not, WOFers are members of the same body of Christ as you, and have dependence on the same Jesus, and share the same Holy Spirit. This is because they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are baptised the same as you were, and this is the entry qualification for salvation that Peter pointed out in Acts 2.

    It seems that you believe that WOFers are the more dishonourable parts of the body. Did you know that Paul says that we should hold the more dishonourable and weaker members of the body in greater honour? This is in keeping with 1 Corinthians 13 which contains the practical ways that we love our brethren in Christ. If we love only those who agree with us, and not those who we disagree with, then how can we love God whom we cannot see? That's what the Bible tells me.

    So the Word of God to me is that I should love WOFers as Jesus loves them, even though I may not fully agree with some of their theology. Because if I don't love them with the love of Jesus, then I don't know God at all, because God is love.

    That's why I don't make blanket statements that WOFers are false.
     
  19. Tallen

    Tallen Newbie

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    Nope, pd. Although Solomon was promised blessings from YHWH, you better go back further and see what he said to Israel.

    If you need some help let me know. ;)
     
  20. Tallen

    Tallen Newbie

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    Yup. Several.
     
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