The problem with Creation vs. Evolution threads (or why certain atheists aren't helping)

[Hoghead1]

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4.24)

The Jews might not have had the word "metaphor," but they possessed the concept.

No, they did not think of spirit as something immaterial. That's why they likened it to breath. The idea of something wholly immaterial comes from Hellenic culture.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I know what it means. Bringing angels I n here is totally irrelevant. However, since you have done so, my comment is that there is no spirit-matter dualism in Scripture. Everything is thought to have a physical dimension, including God, who is attributed just about every body part.

The scriptures I quoted support what you call "dualism". I believe that most Christians understand the difference between the physical and the spiritual. What may be confusing is that the spiritual is usually applied in a physical way. Spiritual implies principled in that a person with no spiritual principles acts in a purely selfish, thoughtless manner. The spiritual person conducts him/her self in a principled manner. An example would be that a spiritual person puts their shopping cart away in a neat fashion to minimize the work of the grocery store staff. Unprincipled persons shove their carts into the corral in a willy-nilly manner with no thought of the work needed by others to straighten them out.

 

[Hoghead1]

The scriptures I quoted support what you call "dualism". I believe that most Christians understand the difference between the physical and the spiritual. What may be confusing is that the spiritual is usually applied in a physical way. Spiritual implies principled in that a person with no spiritual principles acts in a purely selfish, thoughtless manner. The spiritual person conducts him/her self in a principled manner. An example would be that a spiritual person puts their shopping cart away in a neat fashion to minimize the work of the grocery store staff. Unprincipled persons shove their carts into the corral in a willy-nilly manner with no thought of the work needed by others to straighten them out.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about, however. I am talking about the dualism consisting of an immaterial, wholly simple world standing over and against the world of time, and change, and matter, which is seen as grossly inferior or evil. Extension is the basic characteristic of matter; hence, the immaterial world is seen as wholly simple, i.e., having no dimensions, no height, length, breadth, occupying no space.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about, however. I am talking about the dualism consisting of an immaterial, wholly simple world standing over and against the world of time, and change, and matter, which is seen as grossly inferior or evil. Extension is the basic characteristic of matter; hence, the immaterial world is seen as wholly simple, i.e., having no dimensions, no height, length, breadth, occupying no space.

You lost me, sorry.

 

[Hoghead1]

You lost me, sorry.

Are you saying you are confused about what I said or what?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Are you saying you are confused about what I said or what?

Yes, confused.

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes, confused.

OK, what do you need me to explain?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

OK, what do you need me to explain?

No need. We're not in the same ballpark.

 

[Hoghead1]

No need. We're not in the same ballpark.

Then why did you bother to tell me that you felt lost?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Then why did you bother to tell me that you felt lost?

It was the moral thing to do rather than not replying at all.

 

[Hoghead1]

It was the moral thing to do rather than not replying at all.

No, it was not the moral thing to do. It was dishonest. If you weren't interested in having me help you, you should have not said your were lost. When someone cries wolf, that generally means they need help.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, it was not the moral thing to do. It was dishonest. If you weren't interested in having me help you, you should have not said your were lost. When someone cries wolf, that generally means they need help.

I get to determine what I meant, not you.

 

[joshua 1 9]

"Physical reality" functions the same regardless of what one believes.

You still have the observer effect. I do a little photography and I see that all the time. It is very common for people to know that you are taking there picture even when they can not see the camera. Science has shown this with the double slit experiment. Quantum physics informs us that a system exists in superposition — that is, in all possible states — until we observe that it is only in one specific state.

 

[joshua 1 9]

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Everyone has to find their own inspiration or enlightenment. The problem is when we hinder others from find the way that is right for them. I do not think God will tolerate people setting a bad example for others. Esp when children are involved.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You still have the observer effect. I do a little photography and I see that all the time. It is very common for people to know that you are taking there picture even when they can not see the camera. Science has shown this with the double slit experiment. Quantum physics informs us that a system exists in superposition — that is, in all possible states — until we observe that it is only in one specific state.

Who is the 'us' that quantum physics informs? I watched an animated presentation on it and after about ten minutes my head began to hurt.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Who is the 'us' that quantum physics informs?

This is a quote from Prevent Disease dot com. Although if you run a google search on this statement you will find quite a few web sites make this claim: "Quantum physics informs us that a system exists in superposition — that is, in all possible states — until we observe that it is only in one specific state."

http://preventdisease.com/news/16/020316_Every-Scientific-Law-Will-Be-Rewritten-Next-50-Years.shtml

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This is a quote from Prevent Disease dot com. Although if you run a google search on this statement you will find quite a few web sites make this claim: "Quantum physics informs us that a system exists in superposition — that is, in all possible states — until we observe that it is only in one specific state."

http://preventdisease.com/news/16/020316_Every-Scientific-Law-Will-Be-Rewritten-Next-50-Years.shtml

What I meant was who, of all the people on earth, is informed by quantum physics? I'm certainly not one of them.

 

[Hoghead1]

What I meant was who, of all the people on earth, is informed by quantum physics? I'm certainly not one of them.

Yes, but many are and with good reason. Quantum points to the indeterminacy of things. That's important, because that tells me everything has some real degree of freedom.

 

[AV1611VET]

Quantum points to the indeterminacy of things.

You need quantum physics for that?

James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

I'd say vapor is hard to determine what its configuration is going to be, second-by-second.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, but many are and with good reason. Quantum points to the indeterminacy of things. That's important, because that tells me everything has some real degree of freedom.

But does it have any practical value for the average person?