The Power That Saves: A Passage That Arminians And Calvinists can Learn From.

[Awaken4Christ]

The Power That Saves: A Passage That Arminians And Calvinists can Learn From. The argument of free will has been going on since probably the beginning, in one form or another. But some of the things I have read in here have been beyond the scope of Arminianism and Calvinism. Some of the things ive heard in here sound more like Open Theism or Pelagianism. Perhaps some of you will never become a 5 pointer, and My aim right now is not to make you one. However, I would like to share something I believe is beautiful and can benefit Calvinists and Non-Calvinists alike concerning power of God.

I have been reading the bible straight through and I came upon a passage that had a little gem of information I had never seen before.

In the Book of Genesis, There is the story of Lot and his family. As you may all know by now, the city in which he lived was a wicked city that God destroyed, but before he would destroy that city, he saved Lot and his Family.

We have all probably heard or read this story in the bible before, but something struck me inside. Something that I had not noticed until I revisited it. Before Lot leaves, this is what happens:

Genesis 19: 15-16 (esv)

"15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city."

Did any of you catch that? Lot was still hanging around the city, so the Angels "Seized him" and his family "by the hand" and brought them out of the city. The verse states that this was the "Lord being merciful to him"

And I ask you all, is Salvation of The Lord Anything Less?

Now I haven't Systematized anything yet for you nor have I given you a structured lofty Calvinist model. What I have shown you is that the man Lot when told the truth was still apprehensive, and if it weren't for those Angels taking him by the hand and away from the city, he would have perished that day.

Now I could of gone to the more popular and better "proof texts" explaining how God not only convinces us, but changes our hearts. But many have seen and heard those. The reason I decided to use this is that I happen to stumble on it while reading through the bible. I had no Agenda, it just appeared to me. And the thing is, these kind of verses can be found ALL OVER THE Old TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT. So many passages that show God's sovereignty and the Power God has over us and all of creation.

My friends, this is not just A Calvinistic understanding of the power of God.
If you ever Listen to some of those old time Preachers such as Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer, etc, you'll find that they believe the Power of God in Salvation is a necessarily Heart changing Regenerating Process. These men were not Calvinists!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXA5UOkLTyo

 

[Hammster]

 

[tall73]

Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Lot's wife was led from the city as well, but she turned back and was destroyed. Did it only apply to Lot?

 

[Skala]

THANK YOU! This is why, as a person convinced that the doctrines of Calvinism are true and Biblical, I always try to bring the conversation back to the core issue - man's fallen nature and what he will or will not do, and what God does to convert us (regeneration)

Calvinism is less about predestination and more about regeneration.

 

[98cwitr]

Well stated! Paul Washer is one of my favs as well. The man tells it like it is.

 

[JLR1300]

Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Lot's wife was led from the city as well, but she turned back and was destroyed. Did it only apply to Lot?

Anytime we read about an occurrence in the Bible, before we use it as an analogy of salvation or make some other point about it, we always need to allow the Bible itself to make the points about it that it wants to make and defer to that point.

Jesus made a point about Lot's wife in Luke 17 and Peter made a point about Lot's deliverance from Sodom in Second Peter. So let's see what point they got from the story of Lot and his wife.

the lesson that Peter gives to us about Lot, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to be that Lot was already a saved man who was upset about the evil around him in Sodom and so the Lord delivered Him.

Peter says that the Lord "delivered righteous Lot who WAS oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked. For that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds- then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations..."

So Peter's lesson from the story is not about how God saves sinners but about how God delivers Christians from temptation.

Then Jesus, in Luke 17 says that when thinking about His second coming we need to consider Lot's wife. Lot himself was upset about Sodom and was sick of it and it's sins. That showed that He was a righteous or saved man. Lot's wife on the other hand loved Sodom. Even with the Angels pulling her away from it and God destroying it she still longingly looked back at it. She never hated it. Even though it was evil she loved it dearly. That shows that she was never actually converted. The point is that some people appear to be Christians and are in the company of those who are being saved (they go to church) and yet their hearts have never been changed.

So the point Jesus is making is that some in the churches are not truly changed and will not be saved when He comes again.

So I realize that it is a temptation to use Lot as an example of how people get converted. But that is not the lesson that the Bible itself makes of it. I believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election too, and also of the security of the believer. But nevertheless, not every story in the bible can be used as an analogy to prove those doctrines. We have to take those stories and make the points that the bible itself makes of them. God bless.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

Anytime we read about an occurrence in the Bible, before we use it as an analogy of salvation or make some other point about it, we always need to allow the Bible itself to make the points about it that it wants to make and defer to that point.

Jesus made a point about Lot's wife in Luke 17 and Peter made a point about Lot's deliverance from Sodom in Second Peter. So let's see what point they got from the story of Lot and his wife.

the lesson that Peter gives to us about Lot, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to be that Lot was already a saved man who was upset about the evil around him in Sodom and so the Lord delivered Him.

Peter says that the Lord "delivered righteous Lot who WAS oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked. For that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds- then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations..."

So Peter's lesson from the story is not about how God saves sinners but about how God delivers Christians from temptation.

Then Jesus, in Luke 17 says that when thinking about His second coming we need to consider Lot's wife. Lot himself was upset about Sodom and was sick of it and it's sins. That showed that He was a righteous or saved man. Lot's wife on the other hand loved Sodom. Even with the Angels pulling her away from it and God destroying it she still longingly looked back at it. She never hated it. Even though it was evil she loved it dearly. That shows that she was never actually converted. The point is that some people appear to be Christians and are in the company of those who are being saved (they go to church) and yet their hearts have never been changed.

So the point Jesus is making is that some in the churches are not truly changed and will not be saved when He comes again.

So I realize that it is a temptation to use Lot as an example of how people get converted. But that is not the lesson that the Bible itself makes of it. I believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election too, and also of the security of the believer. But nevertheless, not every story in the bible can be used as an analogy to prove those doctrines. We have to take those stories and make the points that the bible itself makes of them. God bless.

JLR1300, My Premise was not to make the story of Lot a 1:1 example of salvation but instead to show Gods power over the individual. I do believe there are some strong parallels to salvation, however, That's why I said "Is Salvation of The Lord anything less" Making a distinction between Lots, story and salvation and yet taking note of the parallels. The general claim is that God, as shown in the bible, despite the will or actions of man, intervenes on a level that people are often not willing to admit he does.

I concede that this is not a Proof Text for soteriological issues, but I do believe it is relevant to God's sovereingty and man's Inability.

I'm sure you already understand that some people place the Will of man in so high regards that people doubt God would even do something as explained in Lot's case.

And yes, your right: it is the right idea to look at what the bible says about the story to get the full understanding as was intended. But my revisiting the passage allowed to to pay close attention to the language used and is one example of many that indicates God's sovereignty and the weakness that is found in man.

Proverbs 20:24 "A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?" And in Lots case in the form Angels taking him out of that city of destruction.

 

[JLR1300]

Thanks... point well taken. God bless.

 

[Job8]

So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city."

You are misapplying this Scripture to Lot's salvation, when it is really about Lot's deliverance from the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Lot was already justified -- righteous through faith (just as Abraham received imputed righteousness) -- long before this occurred. At the same time he was an anomaly, therefore he continued to live in this depraved city. But notice what Scripture says about Lot and how he was troubled by what was going on around him, because he was already saved (2 Peter 2:6-9):

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds:

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Kindly notice that it was "just [justified] Lot", a "righteous man", a "righteous soul" who was vexed daily by the deparavity of his neighbors. He was ALREADY SAVED otherwise he would not have been troubled by sexual depravity. Please don't try and abuse this Scripture to prove your Calvinistic ideas. It has nothing to do with Lot's salvation. And we know that when the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners, yet they must ultimately respond to the Gospel (and even Spurgeon had to preach exactly that, as noted elsewhere).

 

[Job8]

I concede that this is not a Proof Text for soteriological issues, but I do believe it is relevant to God's sovereingty and man's Inability.

Even this is completely false, as is proven by Lot's wife. Here is a woman being delivered supernaturally from destruction, along with some of her family. She is fully aware that angels are rescuing her. Yet she turns around and gazes wistfully (?) at the destruction of those cities after being specifically warned by the angels not to look back.

How does this prove God's sovereignty? How does this prove man's inability, since the rest of her family was not hynotized into gazing backwards? What this entire incident proves is GOD'S INFINITE GRACE AND MERCY TO UNDESERVING PEOPLE.

And that's what the Gospel is all about. Not sovereignty and not inability. Those who continue to harp on sovereignty and inability in the face of a multitude of Scriptures which speak of grace alone are wilfully blind to the truth.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

Even this is completely false, as is proven by Lot's wife. Here is a woman being delivered supernaturally from destruction, along with some of her family. She is fully aware that angels are rescuing her. Yet she turns around and gazes wistfully (?) at the destruction of those cities after being specifically warned by the angels not to look back.

How does this prove God's sovereignty? How does this prove man's inability, since the rest of her family was not hynotized into gazing backwards? What this entire incident proves is GOD'S INFINITE GRACE AND MERCY TO UNDESERVING PEOPLE.

And that's what the Gospel is all about. Not sovereignty and not inability. Those who continue to harp on sovereignty and inability in the face of a multitude of Scriptures which speak of grace alone are wilfully blind to the truth.

Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."

Romans 9:18 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Romans 7:18 "
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."


Okay so were not going to agree about the example speaking to higher truths about Sovereignty and Inability, at least in the way I have presented it. But do you think it atleast speaks to both God's and man's character in some way? That God when he wills it, decides to do something for man, even if that man is apprehensive? That not only does God persuade, but as shown in this example God is willing to take us by the hand and pull us in the direction we need to go? So maybe we dont disagree about the possibility that God takes things into his own hands...but perhaps we disagree to what extent or frequency God does this in our lives whether it be on the unregenerate side or the regenerate side of life?

Do you not see any power in the fact that Lot, being the hesitant creature, is taken by the hand of God and delivered out of destruction? Can you at least see that this particular mercy given to Lot is a wonderful act of mercy? To be warned about coming danger...yes what a blessing indeed, but to be lead by the hand out of darkness and destruction. WOW! Praise God that he is willing to do such things.

This beauty that I am referring too... is it just for a 5 pointer? I know we could argue the finer points of reformed theology till Kingdom Come, but do you think there is any truth in what I've said? Maybe I didn't speak as clear as i could. I am not trying to prove Calvinism in this thread. Is there a level of mercy, sovereignty, and divine intervention that pulls on your heartstrings in regards to my example?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

The Power That Saves: A Passage That Arminians And Calvinists can Learn From. The argument of free will has been going on since probably the beginning, in one form or another. But some of the things I have read in here have been beyond the scope of Arminianism and Calvinism. Some of the things ive heard in here sound more like Open Theism or Pelagianism. Perhaps some of you will never become a 5 pointer, and My aim right now is not to make you one. However, I would like to share something I believe is beautiful and can benefit Calvinists and Non-Calvinists alike concerning power of God.

I have been reading the bible straight through and I came upon a passage that had a little gem of information I had never seen before.

In the Book of Genesis, There is the story of Lot and his family. As you may all know by now, the city in which he lived was a wicked city that God destroyed, but before he would destroy that city, he saved Lot and his Family.

We have all probably heard or read this story in the bible before, but something struck me inside. Something that I had not noticed until I revisited it. Before Lot leaves, this is what happens:

Genesis 19: 15-16 (esv)

"15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city."

Did any of you catch that? Lot was still hanging around the city, so the Angels "Seized him" and his family "by the hand" and brought them out of the city. The verse states that this was the "Lord being merciful to him"

And I ask you all, is Salvation of The Lord Anything Less?

Now I haven't Systematized anything yet for you nor have I given you a structured lofty Calvinist model. What I have shown you is that the man Lot when told the truth was still apprehensive, and if it weren't for those Angels taking him by the hand and away from the city, he would have perished that day.

Now I could of gone to the more popular and better "proof texts" explaining how God not only convinces us, but changes our hearts. But many have seen and heard those. The reason I decided to use this is that I happen to stumble on it while reading through the bible. I had no Agenda, it just appeared to me. And the thing is, these kind of verses can be found ALL OVER THE Old TESTAMENT and NEW TESTAMENT. So many passages that show God's sovereignty and the Power God has over us and all of creation.

My friends, this is not just A Calvinistic understanding of the power of God.
If you ever Listen to some of those old time Preachers such as Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer, etc, you'll find that they believe the Power of God in Salvation is a necessarily Heart changing Regenerating Process. These men were not Calvinists!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXA5UOkLTyo

You're trying to twist things into Calvinism. Lot "vexed his righteous soul" daily when he lived in Sodom. He was saved if he stayed in Sodom and died in it's destruction of not. God brought him out of Sodom in answer to Abraham's prayer. The angels did not force him to get saved, they only got him out of the city before it was destroyed.



That's what Calvinism does, it tries to twist things and claim intellectual superiority in understanding some "new and wonderful truth"

 

[Skala]

That's what Calvinism does, it tries to twist things and claim intellectual superiority in understanding some "new and wonderful truth"

Assertions are meaningless. Why does "it try" to do the things you asserted?

Also, it's not a new truth. The Apostles taught it, Jesus taught it, the council of Orange 529 AD taught it. And it's been taught and affirmed by Christians all throughout church history.

 

[Hammster]

Assertions are meaningless. Why does "it try" to do the things you asserted?

Also, it's not a new truth. The Apostles taught it, Jesus taught it, the council of Orange 529 AD taught it. And it's been taught and affirmed by Christians all throughout church history.

But everyone knows that Calvinism has to twist things and change meanings of words to make it work.

 

[Job8]

Is there a level of mercy, sovereignty, and divine intervention that pulls on your heartstrings in regards to my example?

Absolutely. As I mentioned above, this whole incident about the deliverance of Lot and his family speaks eloquently of the infinite mercy and grace of God, even to those who have one foot in the world and one foot in spiritual things.

Who can fathom God's grace? Who can deny that His grace extends to absolutely every creature? Who can say that it is not Amazing Grace? God intervenes in every life through the Gospel and the Holy Spirit, which plan is designed not only to generate saving faith, but to bring sinners to repentance and salvation. But this is not sovereignty. This is grace.

 

[Awaken4Christ]

That's what Calvinism does, it tries to twist things and claim intellectual superiority in understanding some "new and wonderful truth"

I already made it clear I wasn't aiming to proove Calvinism. Its an example that God is willing to take us by the hand and deliver us out of destruction. Of course a Calvinist is going to have a more specific doctrine when thinking about the implications of what I was talking about. But the thing is, you can be Arminian and still appreciate what I've said. (atleast i thought so)

If I wanted to make this more about proving Calvinism wouldn't I go to John 6, Romans 8 and 9, Eph 1, etc etc etc etc etc?

The point is that God is willing to not just pitch a sale to the creature but direct his steps as well. I Didn't talk about that razor line between choosing to follow and being chosen to follow. I'm just saying there is a general understanding Of Gods sovereignty that even Non-Calvinists will often agree with.

I don't think Leonard Ravenhill would disagree with most of what I said. So if your arguing about regeneration, know that men like Ravenhill are not calvinist, yet they believe that salvation is a powerful act of God. Perhaps you have a particularly extreme dose of Arminianism?
Is God just there giving you a sales pitch? He doesn't change us in such a way that it opens our hearts to the truth of the Gospel?

If a preacher gets a flat tire on Sunday, does that mean somebody might of been saved but didn't get saved because of the flat tire?

I guess we should file a complaint to goodyear.

If someone gets saved its not becuase of the cleverness of a preacher, But by the power of God.

No matter how you feel about the particular moment of "Choice" or "being Chosen" in the a soteriological sense, you have to realize all the places in the scriptures where God shows us the level he can shape history or shape the man.

Read Isaiah 10 and how God uses the Assyrians.
Read through the Psalms and Proverbs about how God directs the footsteps of people


God doesn't sit back and just roll the dice.
But when men cast lots....
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."

Can we talk about Gods Sovereignty in any capacity? Isn't Divine intervention a beautiful thing? Can we generally agree?