The Orthodox Iron Giant

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E.T. was the bomb. Loved that movie. I remember when it came out in 1982, my grandmother wanted to see it badly. She and my grandpa took me to the cinema here in town and we stood in a super long line to see it. The whole movie was wondrous and beautiful to me and it had a strong morality. I thought it was touching, heartwarming at times, and a bit mysterious. My own children loved it.

My grandma passed in 2010. She had little E.T. stuffed animals in her house, always loved that movie. She HATED science-fiction, which I always found incongruous with her love for little E.T. Whenever I see that movie, I think of her. :)

I watched it once when I was a young tot. All I remember is that I hated it. :p

As for ET, I hated that too. It creeped me out. (And still does.) Mostly his fingers. And the scene with the scientists.

Wreck it Ralph is one of my favorites.
 
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MKJ

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ET didn't creep me out as bad as the Dark Crystal. that movie still gives me the willies, and I had nightmares when the Emperor died.

Me too. I loved it when I was a bit older though.

I got it for my kids, and they freaked out at the bit with the emperor. They actually told me I had to take it out of the house.
 
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rusmeister

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Could be there are other movies with similar themes.

When there really are, I'm all for promoting them. I just don't think movies like ET and the Dark Crystal fit that bill. In the Iron Giant, it's pretty obvious. In fact, if you read the story about how thhe budget got cut, the executive removed, and the director given a free hand to make the kind of movie he really wanted to make, you can see how that stuff got past the censors.
 
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ArmyMatt

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When there really are, I'm all for promoting them. I just don't think movies like ET and the Dark Crystal fit that bill. In the Iron Giant, it's pretty obvious. In fact, if you read the story about how thhe budget got cut, the executive removed, and the director given a free hand to make the kind of movie he really wanted to make, you can see how that stuff got past the censors.

if some folks can find Orthodox themes in other movies, even if you cannot see them, does not mean they are not there.
 
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MKJ

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Pulp Fiction and Grindhouse, for example? :p

Hmm.

I think Pulp Fiction might be kind of post-modern.

I can't speak for Grindhouse - maybe you could enlighten us?


In any case, I think E.T. Has some interesting themes - the connectedness of all creation, self-sacrifice, family, friendship.

And for that matter, The Iron Giant has some really political themes - acceptance of the other, gun control, war-mongering.
 
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Pulp Fiction brought up some important topics for discussion:

Are dogs filthy animals?
Should we dig on swine?
If someone is holding up a diner, should you give them a second chance or blow 'em away?
If told to throw a fight, do you do it or take the $$$$ and run?
Do you call Winston Wolffe in times of crisis?
Where do you insert the epinephrine needle in an overdose? LOL
The relationship of the metric system to hamburger names
Using Bible verses before scheduled executions
Should stories be taught in sequence?


You didn't see Grindhouse, Meghan? Awww, you're missin' something! :p Just Youtube the fake trailers. They're epic, especially "Thanksgiving Day," "She-Wolves of the SS," and "Machete":cool:

Hmm.

I think Pulp Fiction might be kind of post-modern.

I can't speak for Grindhouse - maybe you could enlighten us?


In any case, I think E.T. Has some interesting themes - the connectedness of all creation, self-sacrifice, family, friendship.

And for that matter, The Iron Giant has some really political themes - acceptance of the other, gun control, war-mongering.
 
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rusmeister

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if some folks can find Orthodox themes in other movies, even if you cannot see them, does not mean they are not there.

But I think that if, pointed out, then pretty much anyone ought to be able to see it. If the proposed theme has been pointed out and everybody can see it but one, then the problem is probably in the person seeing. But if a significant number of people can't see it, especially if only a few people claim it, then the theme may not be as Christian as supposed.
 
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rusmeister

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Hmm.

I think Pulp Fiction might be kind of post-modern.

I can't speak for Grindhouse - maybe you could enlighten us?


In any case, I think E.T. Has some interesting themes - the connectedness of all creation, self-sacrifice, family, friendship.

And for that matter, The Iron Giant has some really political themes - acceptance of the other, gun control, war-mongering.

Pagans have the connectedness of all creation, self-sacrifice, family, and friendship.
Most actors are human, but that does not make for a specifically Christian theme.
There can be films with themes about generic virtues like faith - important in the traditional forms of Christianity, Judaism and Islam in mind - like the
Matrix (faith as a choice in spite of doubt, for instance). "Souls don't die" covers that. But bodily resurrection is really specifically Christian. And struggling with one's passion is increasingly becoming just Orthodox, imo.
 
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Antony in Tx

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It just occured to me...somebody mentioned Pete Townshend in relation to this movie (with Orthodox themes buried in it), and I am reminded (I've said this before) that some of PT's best lyrics from his band have Orthodox themes...the most poignant to me of which is from "Who Are You",

"I know there's a place you walked
Where love falls from the trees
My heart is like a broken cup
I only feel right on my knees

I spit out like a sewer hole
Yet still recieve your kiss
How can I measure up to anyone now
After such a love as this? "
 
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"That deaf, dumb, and blind kid....SURE PLAYS SOME MEAN PINBALL!"

I wonder what theology that comes from? :p

I never liked Townshend's talk about homosexuality and his own bisexuality. Makes me pretty sick. But I admire his years with The Who and talent. "Who's Next?" is, imho, one of the most epic classic rock albums of all time. That album is perfection from top to bottom of the song list

It just occured to me...somebody mentioned Pete Townshend in relation to this movie (with Orthodox themes buried in it), and I am reminded (I've said this before) that some of PT's best lyrics from his band have Orthodox themes...the most poignant to me of which is from "Who Are You",

"I know there's a place you walked
Where love falls from the trees
My heart is like a broken cup
I only feel right on my knees

I spit out like a sewer hole
Yet still recieve your kiss
How can I measure up to anyone now
After such a love as this? "
 
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MKJ

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But I think that if, pointed out, then pretty much anyone ought to be able to see it. If the proposed theme has been pointed out and everybody can see it but one, then the problem is probably in the person seeing. But if a significant number of people can't see it, especially if only a few people claim it, then the theme may not be as Christian as supposed.

No. No no no.

The Iron Giant is a simple movie, with a fairly simple plot. It is easy to pick out the themes because they are obvious. This is not a criticism - simple things can be very beautiful and moving and meaningful.

Do you think Animal Farm is a better book than Crime and Punishment? How hard is it to pick out the themes in Animal Farm, and figure out what the author is saying, what his politics are? How long can you discuss C&P before you have a handle on its spiritual and political meaning? If you discuss it with others, are you sure to come to an agreement?

Is there a reason kids read Animal Farm in Jr High, whereas C&P has whole semesters in university dedicated to it?
 
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rusmeister

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No. No no no.

The Iron Giant is a simple movie, with a fairly simple plot. It is easy to pick out the themes because they are obvious. This is not a criticism - simple things can be very beautiful and moving and meaningful.

Do you think Animal Farm is a better book than Crime and Punishment? How hard is it to pick out the themes in Animal Farm, and figure out what the author is saying, what his politics are? How long can you discuss C&P before you have a handle on its spiritual and political meaning? If you discuss it with others, are you sure to come to an agreement?

Is there a reason kids read Animal Farm in Jr High, whereas C&P has whole semesters in university dedicated to it?
I really don't think you understood my meaning, MK.
I was saying that a problem can be in either a defect of the work or of the person watching/reading (etc) it. A work may not be particularly Christian.
OR a viewer/reader may not grasp the theme. A book may be a poor book OR it might be a second-grader who doesn't get Einstein or Chesterton.
So I don't disagree with what you're saying here. I was just saying to Matt that it could be that a viewer doesn't see something that's there, or it might actually not be there to see. Knowing both TDC and ET, I think I can say confidently that the themes are not especially Christian, whereas in TIG they decidedly are.
Maybe someone really sees something that I missed or forgot. If so, let them point it out. I admit that TDC is further back in my memory bin. But the whole division and unification of the Skeksis and the (other, wise and peaceful ones) is more pantheist than Christian, an eastern Yin/Yang thing.
 
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ArmyMatt

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But I think that if, pointed out, then pretty much anyone ought to be able to see it. If the proposed theme has been pointed out and everybody can see it but one, then the problem is probably in the person seeing. But if a significant number of people can't see it, especially if only a few people claim it, then the theme may not be as Christian as supposed.

so what? majorities have been wrong in the past. even if incredibly subtle, it does not mean they are not there. it could just mean that one group prefers more obvious symbolism.
 
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MKJ

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Well, i ave not really ever sat down and thought about The Dark Crystal thematically.. At first blush, I would not say that it is esposing a pantheist approach at all. I'll give it a go though - what happens in the story, and what does that mean?

To summarize - before the action of the film begins, their exists a race of very intelligent beings on the planet who use a large crystal to harness the power of the sun, and accomplish various things with it. They come up with an idea to use the power of the crystal during the great conjunction in order to anhialate all the evil or impure parts of their character, rendering them perfected beings, and immortal. (It is unclear, but there is some reason to think they hope to become wholly spiritual beings in this process.)

Their attempt fails, the crystal cracks and a shard is lost. Instead of purifying them, they are split into two separate, physical, races. The Skeksis are highly intelligent, cruel, clever, technologically advanced and creative, and have a strong will to power. They only respect strength. They wish to remain as they are and dominate the planet, becoming immortal one the next great conjunction comes.

The mystics are wise, kind, and intuitive. They seem to be closer to nature and live simply. They are not terribly active, seeming almost passive at times, though they do persue plans to reunite themselves with the Skeksis and heal the crystal and the planet. They use a sort of magic that seems focused on patterns and doing things at the right time.

After the split, the Skeksis drive out the Mystics, ruleing the planet with an iron fist. They in particular dominate the simple Pod people, using them as slaves and to drain their life essence to maintain the youth of the Skeksis. There is a prophesy however which says that a Gelfling - a humanlike race - will heal the crystal and the split between the two groups. The Skeksis round up and slaughter all the Gelflings to prevent this.

The Mystics, however, have saved one Gelfling, a baby named Jen, and raised him. At the begging of the film, the leader of the Mystics sens him on a mission to find the crystal shard and heal the crystal. He tells him to go to Aughra for direction.

Jen finds Augrah, who seems to be some sort of scientist, and finds the shard. She tells him that the task of healing the crystal must be completed before the Great Conjunction, or all is lost. The army of the Skeksis, beetle-like creatures, attack, and Jen flees. Augrah fights them to give him time to escape, and is captured.

Jen leaves, and on his journey meets with a Gelfling girl, Kira, who was raised by Pod people. While they are together, the Skeksis army attacks the settlement, and the Gelflings flee. They find an old ruin of the Gelfling people, which is quite extensive, and contains murals depicting the events of the splitting of the crystal and the prophesy. Jen realizes what he needs to do.

They are set upon though by one of the Skeksis, who had been cast out of the group. He captures Kira and brings her back to the castle, where they decide to drain her essence. She escapes in the castle before this happens.

As the Conjunction approaches, Jen meets Kira in the crystal chamber. The Skeksis gather there, and the Mystics also appear having traveled for many days. In an attempt to place the shard back into the crystal, Kira is killed by one of the Skeksis. Jen places the shard in the crytal, and the Mysics and Skeksis are reunited into single beings. The beings revive Kira, seem to turn things over to the Gelflings, and leave (to where is not clear).

So what is going on here? A lot obviously, but i just have a few immediate thoug.

What were the original beings trying to do, and why did it fail? I think it would be wrong to associate the Skeksis simply with evil, and the Mysics with good, though clearly the attempt on the part of the original beings was to get rid of the "bad" elements. And the Skeksis clearly lack many things, notably kindness and wisdom. But they are very clever, and they get things done. The Mystics, on the other hand, can seem almost impotent, incurious and passive. They use their magic to see what nature, the logos says to them, but they are not creative, they do not make things happen.

I don't really see this as a Yin Yang thing myself. More a matter of each aspect or function of our being having a dark side. The original beings had taken a sort of dualist approach, and we trying to shed matter and make themselves pure and good. What they found was that they were, in fact, integrated beings, and taking away the "bad" meant losing some of the good too - the things that were evil were in a way perversions of good things. They were truly incomplete.

The result of the split affects the whole planet - it isn't confined to the originators. And it is the Gelflings that are supposed to be the ones to heal the split - the Skeksis don't want to and for whatever reason, the Mystics can't. The Gelflings in some ways seem the most like the Beings themselves - with the potential for intelligence, wisdom, and action. It's hard to imagine the Pod people undertaking the quest, or even Auhura, though she is brave and good. She seems to have a kind of external relationship to the whole thing.
 
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