The origin of Rapture Doctrine

DeaconDean

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pre trib started in 1830 with a man named Derby. Derby wrote his own bible, and then used it to teach, scofield, scofield wrote his notes and placed it in a kjv of the bible printed in oxford, and taught moody. moody as we know preached it to all of us. just because it is popular, dosen't make it not a lie.

food for thought.

More food for thought.

Just because something wasn't heard of until a certain time does not make it a lie.

Saved by faith alone in Christ alone was unheard of until Martin Luther becamme the champion of it.

If that is the case, then we must conclude that "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo" are all wrong since nobody in the early church taught it and its a fairly new invention.

Until the 1500's, it was salvation by baptism and works.

Sola Scriptura was unheard of until 1502 also.

And I need not remind anybody that Sola Scriptura is a cornerstone of the Baptist faith.

Food for thought.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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BeeWrangler

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More food for thought.

Just because something wasn't heard of until a certain time does not make it a lie.

Saved by faith alone in Christ alone was unheard of until Martin Luther becamme the champion of it.

If that is the case, then we must conclude that "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo" are all wrong since nobody in the early church taught it and its a fairly new invention.

Until the 1500's, it was salvation by baptism and works.

Sola Scriptura was unheard of until 1502 also.

And I need not remind anybody that Sola Scriptura is a cornerstone of the Baptist faith.

Food for thought.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What is "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo"?

Also a question that I don't know if it can be answered... but since we are all eating thoughts...

Why do Christians seem to need other people to tell them what to believe? I mean take what you said about Martin Luther... no one knew "saved faith in Christ alone"? know one new Christ was the key to salvation? It says all that in the bible... everything about Jesus being the only way, having faith in Christ alone... everything Martin Luther said (I imagine, never actually listened to him) can be found in the bible!! Why do so many people need to have someone hold their hand and tell them what to believe???? Did God not give us his words written out and put nice and neatly into a book so we could read it and no what to do??? Man, I mean I know that pastors are here to help teach and guide us... but that does not mean every pastor is right. We need to read for ourselves, we need to pray to Jesus for understanding if there is something we don't understand, not to some man holding onto his every word like he himself is God and the bible is his words. If Jesus can do all things then why does everyone think praying to him for answers is not good enough, we still need to run to man for the answers? Its no wonder hardly any Christians are on the same page anymore! Never in my life have I seen more arguments than I have in Christian forums... and very few people quote Jesus... every quote seems to be from some guy. "this guy from 100 years ago said this" Oh ya, well this guy from 1000 years ago said this" Who cares! they are men, sinners, if the bible doesn't say they are the answer than they are not the answer. The answer is in the bible. Cut and dry, very simple.
 
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DeaconDean

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What is "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo"?

The five solas"

1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

The Five solae are five Latin phrases that emerged during the Protestant Reformation and summarize the Reformers' basic theological beliefs in contradistinction to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church of the day. The Latin word sola means "alone" or "only" in English. The five solae articulated five fundamental beliefs of the Protestant Reformation, pillars which the Reformers believed to be essentials of the Christian life and practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Solas

Also known as the Five sola's of the Reformation.

And:

Why do Christians seem to need other people to tell them what to believe?

For the exact same reasons others come in here and tell us how wrong our beliefs are.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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AmyNMoore

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What is "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo"?

Also a question that I don't know if it can be answered... but since we are all eating thoughts...

Why do Christians seem to need other people to tell them what to believe?

Because it is easyers, we are lazy, and then we have someone eles to blame when we get it wrone. It goes back to the time before men like martin lurther, when the "chruch"(meaning the cathlic or roman cathlic chruch) taught and still teach the the "mysterys" of the bible are to great for the untrained minds (that you and me) to understand. so we need a pope etc... to explain it to us. saddly more and more chruches are returning to roman.



I mean take what you said about Martin Luther... no one knew "saved faith in Christ alone"? know one new Christ was the key to salvation? It says all that in the bible... everything about Jesus being the only way, having faith in Christ alone... everything Martin Luther said (I imagine, never actually listened to him) can be found in the bible!! Why do so many people need to have someone hold their hand and tell them what to believe???? Did God not give us his words written out and put nice and neatly into a book so we could read it and no what to do??? Man, I mean I know that pastors are here to help teach and guide us... but that does not mean every pastor is right. We need to read for ourselves, we need to pray to Jesus for understanding if there is something we don't understand, not to some man holding onto his every word like he himself is God and the bible is his words. If Jesus can do all things then why does everyone think praying to him for answers is not good enough, we still need to run to man for the answers? Its no wonder hardly any Christians are on the same page anymore! Never in my life have I seen more arguments than I have in Christian forums... and very few people quote Jesus... every quote seems to be from some guy. "this guy from 100 years ago said this" Oh ya, well this guy from 1000 years ago said this" Who cares! they are men, sinners, if the bible doesn't say they are the answer than they are not the answer. The answer is in the bible. Cut and dry, very simple.

:amen:
 
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AmyNMoore

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More food for thought.

Just because something wasn't heard of until a certain time does not make it a lie.

Saved by faith alone in Christ alone was unheard of until Martin Luther becamme the champion of it.

If that is the case, then we must conclude that "Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo" are all wrong since nobody in the early church taught it and its a fairly new invention.

Until the 1500's, it was salvation by baptism and works.

Sola Scriptura was unheard of until 1502 also.

And I need not remind anybody that Sola Scriptura is a cornerstone of the Baptist faith.

Food for thought.

God Bless

Till all are one.



deut 30:11-14
rom 10:6-11
act 16:31
rom 10:9
( there is no mystery in christ, we should not just reley on others to teach us what and how to believe. we should always go first to the soucre of or salvation, and read his plan for our lifes.)
most importantily we need to test all things. just because someone teaches you one thing, search out and see if it lines up with what God says. rom 3:4 "let God be true and everyman a lier"
 
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P1LGR1M

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yes and if some tell you that the elect is speaking only to the Jews, quote them 1 peter 1:2 (KJV) "Elect according to the foreknowledge if God the Father throught sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Grace unto you and peace, be multipled."

here peter is calling all who believe the elect. and as paul says, we are heirs accornding to the promise. i have never understood how some don't get it. that there is no repect of persons with God and that there is niether greek nor jew male nor female we are all equal with God.

also act 14:22, jn 16:33, rom 12:12 rom 8:35, and rev 7:14. 22 times in the bible tribulation is writing and in the new testament it is to be a sign of great joy.

Hello Amy, not sure if we have talked before but nice to meet you if we haven't and nice to talk to you if we have, lol.

It's not that "the elect" does not apply to all who are saved, it is a matter of placing the events of Matthew 24 in their proper place in the timeline of events.

At the time of this discourse there were no "Christians," as Christ had not died, resurrected, and returned to Heaven; the Holy Spirit had not began His ministry as Comforter; the events of Matthew 24 are clearly placed within not only the Tribulation, but speak of the latter part which will be "Great Tribulation."

Now, if one holds to a premillennial position (as most do who recognize there will be a Rapture), and the only resurrections spoken of in the Tribulation described in Revelation are that of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11) and those that died during the Tribulation (Revelation 20) which cannot be equated to the Seventh Trumpet Judgment sounding (which is not after the Tribulation but during)...who is it that populates the Kingdom that is established which the dead saints raised rule with Christ in?

We look at Paul's teaching that not only will the dead in Christ not miss the Rapture but those that remain will also be glorified in the resurrection in view in 1 Thessalonians. And when we look at 1 Corinthians 15 we can with some amount of certainty conclude that all that are in Christ at the time of this resurrection will be raised...not just some.

THat leaves no physical believers among the elect to be enter the Kingdom.

Now, if we believe that there will be a Kingdom established on earth as the prophecy of the Old Testament and the teaching of Christ seem to make clear, and we consider that this kingdom will once again place Israel in right relation with God under the rule of Christ, we find it reasonable that when Christ taught the Jews about the kingdom, in view were...the Jews.

In light of the fact that Christ's earthly ministry was first and foremost for Israel, we would be doing the scripture a disservice to recognize that His teachings to the Jews, while having application to all, had in view events which concerned the Jews.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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deut 30:11-14
rom 10:6-11
act 16:31
rom 10:9
( there is no mystery in christ, we should not just reley on others to teach us what and how to believe. we should always go first to the soucre of or salvation, and read his plan for our lifes.)
most importantily we need to test all things. just because someone teaches you one thing, search out and see if it lines up with what God says. rom 3:4 "let God be true and everyman a lier"

Hello again Amy, there is no denying that the Mystery of Christ is a biblical truth which was only revealed at the appointed time:


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


In view we have the mystery which even the disciples, until the Day of Pentecost, can be seen not to understand.

Had those that crucified the Lord (Satan being behind this) known this previously unrevealed truth, they would not have crucified Him.

The following...

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


...is usually thought to be a reference to Heaven (i.e. we just can't imagine how great it will be) but in fact the context seems to have this referring to the work of Chrsit on the Cross, a foreshadowing of Chrsit which we nor any man would have understood outside of the knowledge of the work accomplished but also one more very important factor:


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



One can have an intellectual knowledge of Christ but only we as believers indwelt by God can actually understand not only the work of Christ but the prophecy of Messiah in the Old Testament.

Again we see the Gospel of Christ spoken of as a mystery:


Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)


25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



Here it said to have been hidden since the world began. Spoken of in Genesis 3:15, but the context was not clear to them.

And again:


Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Little commentary is needed here but to point out that a focus on Gentile inclusion is present though equally important to keep v.9 in view as we digest this great honor that we in this Age have been given.

Again we see the source for understanding is the Comforter. He revealed and reveals it to men (general term to include both male and female).


6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Before we decide that this mystery only extends to Gentile inclusion, we read on:


7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:



In order to keep this short a look at Strong's will help a further study of mystery.

That a "mystery" is a previously unrevealed truth can be seen in many of the verses where it is found. This is one of the points which a Pre-Trib believer is going to bring up in relation to this:


1 Corinthians 15:51-53

King James Version (KJV)


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



In and of itself there seems to be no compelling reason to see this as referring to a pre-trib rapture, however, if we go through this chapter we find that Paul is teaching, and quite extensively...on resurrection. In light of that and the fact that resurrection is a foundational principle of the Doctrine of Christ how exactly do we make Paul's statement that we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, or glorified?

Only if the previously unrevealed truth speaks of a particular resurrection, which it does...the rapture. It could be viewed as referring to the fact that there will be those that are alive that will be resurrected but that seems a little weak since Daniel 12:2 alludes to this very thing.

Now, consider that if we backtrack through the teaching of 1 Corinthians 15, we see that in view is a denial of Christ's resurrection. That is what brings this extensive teaching concerning those changed from physical to spiritual (v.44). If we try to force a resurrection of every believer before the end of the Millennial Kingdom, we run into problems, and that is what is in view: we shall all be changed. Does he mean all believers of all time? No, only those concerned in this resurrection, which teaching is directed at the Church.

Physical believers will in fact survive the Tribulation to enter into the Tribulation, they will not at this time be changed from corruptible to incorruptible. So unless we make this resurrection take place at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, or, as our amillennial brothers believe, reject the teaching that there will be a MIllennial Kingdom, then we are forced to consider that this resurrection is not the resurrection which takes place at the end of the Tribulation, as there would be nbo physical believers to fulfill that spoken about those in the Kingdom, such as long life and benefitting from their labor.

Just something to think about.

And I have to say it is nice to have well working functions, lol: the forum I am on right now has horrible functions.

God bless.
 
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