The origin of Rapture Doctrine

[MWood]

What it comes down to is I really want to believe there will be a pre-tribulation, but I don't want to not be prepared for the tribulation if it is post-trib. It is not a "worry" or stress, it is being prepared because I can listen to both sides of pre and post trib followers and if I listened without question or my own thoughts I could be very convinced by ether debate. That right there tells me know one knows for sure.

You can be assured with knowledge If you read and study the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. In these Epistles Paul explains the Tribulation, the Wrath of God, the Catching away. They are not all in one place, they are in different places. So you will have to read and study.

 

[BeeWrangler]

You can be assured with knowledge If you read and study the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. In these Epistles Paul explains the Tribulation, the Wrath of God, the Catching away. They are not all in one place, they are in different places. So you will have to read and study.

I have been studying them, I know them pretty much off by heart now I have been studding the subject so much. But I have also started to listen to both pre-trib and post-trib people all over the internet. Everything the pre-tribbers say the post-tribbers have good reasons as to why not. And everything the post-tribbers say the pre-tribbers have good reasons as to why not. I lean more towards the post-trib for many reasons, but I don't think it can be said that the answer is assured because no one does it say "before" or "after" the tribulation in the bible. If it was that easy there would not be hundreds of thousands of Christians fighting back and fourth all over the internet split in half as to who is right and who is wrong. There are many things in the bible that all true Christians agree on because it is very blunt and to the point. The rapture is not blunt and to the point when it comes to being before or after the tribulation... but from what I read and understand it is after.

 

[AmyNMoore]

Sadly, many Christians would rather learn their eschatology from the Left Behind series, than scholarly studies and exegesis of the Bible.

okay here is my comment on this subject. those who believe in this are mostly those who are KJV onlyst like iam. but what blows my mind is the fact that they hold on to their scofield kjv and still say they believe in the pure word of God. but forget that scofield Got his teaching and notes at the feet of darby. and darby was one of the first to add to and take away from the word of God. this is something i still can't believe. on one hand saying its wrong, then changing it by saying here it is okay. they even throw out the very words of Christ and say that we are not the elect of God. i'm just floored at this blind veiw of the wonder of Gods promise to us.

God bless.

 

[AmyNMoore]

I have been studying them, I know them pretty much off by heart now I have been studding the subject so much. But I have also started to listen to both pre-trib and post-trib people all over the internet. Everything the pre-tribbers say the post-tribbers have good reasons as to why not. And everything the post-tribbers say the pre-tribbers have good reasons as to why not. I lean more towards the post-trib for many reasons, but I don't think it can be said that the answer is assured because no one does it say "before" or "after" the tribulation in the bible. If it was that easy there would not be hundreds of thousands of Christians fighting back and fourth all over the internet split in half as to who is right and who is wrong. There are many things in the bible that all true Christians agree on because it is very blunt and to the point. The rapture is not blunt and to the point when it comes to being before or after the tribulation... but from what I read and understand it is after.

matt 24:29-31 mark 13 luke 21 all say After the trib. here we find Jesus telling us of the things that well happen. in order to say that the pre trib is true. those who belive in it must first,
1) through out the words of jesus
2) make the Gospels (in these verses) only for the jews.
3) and make John in rev 4:1 into the imbodment of the chruch. by not reading down to verse 2 where John was in spirit not in flesh as WE will be in the rapture.

 

[BeeWrangler]

matt 24:29-31 mark 13 luke 21 all say After the trib. here we find Jesus telling us of the things that well happen. in order to say that the pre trib is true. those who belive in it must first,
1) through out the words of jesus
2) make the Gospels (in these verses) only for the jews.
3) and make John in rev 4:1 into the imbodment of the chruch. by not reading down to verse 2 where John was in spirit not in flesh as WE will be in the rapture.

I agree that those scriptures tell of it being after the tribulation, but be expecting a post to tell you otherwise.

Btw, welcome to CF Amy. There might be a lot of disagreements in this forum (like all Christian forums have) but there are a lot are awesome Christians here, such as the ones I have been disagreeing with on this subject.

 

[AmyNMoore]

yes i have been told that before that its not talking about us christians but the jews.

thanks for the welcome.

 

[BeeWrangler]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.




Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Sounds a lot alike to me.

 

[DeaconDean]

With all respect Decon I take all teachings on the rapture with a grain of salt, men are men, sinners...

And you and I aren't sinners? Why should you take my word, or why should I take your word? So it is safe to say that based on your previous remarks, as one who has personally studied eschatology for over 30 years, from every angle, one who has sat at the feet of certified "elders", a "ruling elder" of the Presbyterian church, you take what I say with a "grain of salt"?

Personally, that says about it all.

You say your open to arguments from both sides, but when I or Hentenza post, you always have a "yea, but..."

So why even bother.

To me, it sounds like your mind is already made up.

So why should I even bother.

Unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BeeWrangler]

And you and I aren't sinners? Why should you take my word, or why should I take your word? So it is safe to say that based on your previous remarks, as one who has personally studied eschatology for over 30 years, from every angle, one who has sat at the feet of certified "elders", a "ruling elder" of the Presbyterian church, you take what I say with a "grain of salt"?

That's what I am saying Deacon, we are all sinners... you, me, everyone who has walked the earth other than Jesus. So yes, I take it all with a grain of salt because the only thing I know that is the 100% truth is the bible. Not that I think you or anyone in particular is lying, nut the only one who knows the 100% truth is Jesus, that is why he gave us his word, the bible. I don't even know who the gentleman you mentioned above is, honestly never heard of him. Not calling him a fraud, I'm calling him a man... I don't follow people, I only follow Jesus.

Personally, that says about it all.

You say your open to arguments from both sides, but when I or Hentenza post, you always have a "yea, but..."

I say "ya but" because I'm not going to jump on a bandwagon just because I respect the person or people driving it.

So why even bother.

To me, it sounds like your mind is already made up.

So why should I even bother.

Unsubscribing.

To be honest Deacon I think my mind is made up. I honestly don't see what it matters though? If I am wrong and it is pre-trib and I am here for it then sweet, I don't have to go thru the tribulation. However if I am right I wont be in a mad panic wondering why I didn't get raptured and I will be prepared for it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

God bless

 

[DeaconDean]

My absolute last post here:

The Steeles - Left Behind.wmv - YouTube

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[SeventhValley]

Justin Martyr (155 A.D.) in his Dialog with Trypho said


But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'



So dispensationalist ideas were around in the early church. Granted the early church was fair theologically diverse.

 

[Hentenza]

Justin Martyr (155 A.D.) in his Dialog with Trypho said


But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

CHAPTER LXXXI -- HE ENDEAVOURS TO PROVE THIS OPINION FROM ISAIAH AND THE APOCALYPSE.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My I people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent[shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, i saith the Lord.' Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree[of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the nay fie ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'



So dispensationalist ideas were around in the early church. Granted the early church was fair theologically diverse.

Yes, all early ECFs from the first and second century and many from the third and fourth centuries where chiliasts. It wasn't until the teachings of Caius (or Gaius) around 210 ad that the first dissenters appeared.

 

[DeaconDean]

Yes, all early ECFs from the first and second century and many from the third and fourth centuries where chiliasts. It wasn't until the teachings of Caius (or Gaius) around 210 ad that the first dissenters appeared.

Oh but brother, haven't your heard, those men were sinners, you can't trust anything they say.

Same applies to you and I too.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Argamon]

(For your consideration.)

Though the Bible has said that a prophecy would be sealed up, until the time of the end, pretribbers can cite earlier examples of the rapture doctrine.

See Rapture Ready's, "Margaret Mac Donald Who?," by Todd Strandberg. Your searchword function (usually CTRL F) will make this reference easier to find, toward the bottom of the page.

There are also teachings on the ancient wedding ritual, which corroborate the pre-tribulation rapture theory, IMHO.

See Perry Stone's, "The Rapture and the Ancient Jewish Wedding, pt 1," (etc.) on YouTube. May still be available on his Voice of Evangelism website.

I thought this was worth considering, because this knowledge was available to people, before modern times. I can't tell you that any of these preachers are perfect, but this prophetic pattern, itself, does not result from a newfangled cult.

(On attempting to post the urls, I am alerted -- "To be able to post links or images your post count must be 50 or greater." Otherwise, very clean format. I like it, so far.)

 

[AmyNMoore]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.




Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Sounds a lot alike to me.

yes and if some tell you that the elect is speaking only to the Jews, quote them 1 peter 1:2 (KJV) "Elect according to the foreknowledge if God the Father throught sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Grace unto you and peace, be multipled."

here peter is calling all who believe the elect. and as paul says, we are heirs accornding to the promise. i have never understood how some don't get it. that there is no repect of persons with God and that there is niether greek nor jew male nor female we are all equal with God.

also act 14:22, jn 16:33, rom 12:12 rom 8:35, and rev 7:14. 22 times in the bible tribulation is writing and in the new testament it is to be a sign of great joy.

 

[AmyNMoore]

(For your consideration.)

Though the Bible has said that a prophecy would be sealed up, until the time of the end, pretribbers can cite earlier examples of the rapture doctrine.

See Rapture Ready's, "Margaret Mac Donald Who?," by Todd Strandberg. Your searchword function (usually CTRL F) will make this reference easier to find, toward the bottom of the page.

There are also teachings on the ancient wedding ritual, which corroborate the pre-tribulation rapture theory, IMHO.

See Perry Stone's, "The Rapture and the Ancient Jewish Wedding, pt 1," (etc.) on YouTube. May still be available on his Voice of Evangelism website.

I thought this was worth considering, because this knowledge was available to people, before modern times. I can't tell you that any of these preachers are perfect, but this prophetic pattern, itself, does not result from a newfangled cult.

(On attempting to post the urls, I am alerted -- "To be able to post links or images your post count must be 50 or greater." Otherwise, very clean format. I like it, so far.)

pre trib started in 1830 with a man named Derby. Derby wrote his own bible, and then used it to teach, scofield, scofield wrote his notes and placed it in a kjv of the bible printed in oxford, and taught moody. moody as we know preached it to all of us. just because it is popular, dosen't make it not a lie.

food for thought.

 

[RDGSr]

Calling away
It is in the Catholic (I think the st Joseph's)
I got that from Jack Van Impe.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
God will bring them with Him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
They are already dead; I think we'll go up together.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead will rise first
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I cannot see where you get the trib in there.

 

[BeeWrangler]

Calling away
It is in the Catholic (I think the st Joseph's)
I got that from Jack Van Impe.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
God will bring them with Him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
They are already dead; I think we'll go up together.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead will rise first
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I cannot see where you get the trib in there.

May be so, but I cannot see where you don't get the trib? Does it say anything about being before the tribulation? Now read Matthew below. It is the same, however it is different scripture and it does say "Immediately after the tribulation" I don't think it is possible to argue that there are many authors in the bible and different parts have been written at different times. In Matthew it is speaking the same as Thes, but it does say after the tribulation. It is like Matthew and Luke for example, reading the scriptures tell the same story of Jesus' birth, the wording is a little different... more detail in Luke than in Matthew but they are not speaking of Jesus being born twice at two different times... they are speaking of his birth. The same applies here, they are speaking of the rapture that will take place AFTER the tribulation... if you are to say that just because the wording is a little different then that would mean all the scriptures in the bible written by different people at different times are never speaking of the same thing... such as the birth of Jesus that I mentioned for example. Rev must be speaking of a totally different thing than Thes and Matthew ect ect.


Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[BeeWrangler]

yes and if some tell you that the elect is speaking only to the Jews, quote them 1 peter 1:2 (KJV) "Elect according to the foreknowledge if God the Father throught sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:Grace unto you and peace, be multipled."

here peter is calling all who believe the elect. and as paul says, we are heirs accornding to the promise. i have never understood how some don't get it. that there is no repect of persons with God and that there is niether greek nor jew male nor female we are all equal with God.

also act 14:22, jn 16:33, rom 12:12 rom 8:35, and rev 7:14. 22 times in the bible tribulation is writing and in the new testament it is to be a sign of great joy.

I agree... thing with the bible or any writing or words, people can twist it into anything they like. If I read "the dog ran down the street" I would take it as the dog ran down the street. But someone out there would twist it around and say "dogs are not aloud to run free in the street so what it actually says is "the dog ran with its master while on a leash down the street"

 

[RDGSr]

I can't find the post.
I know imis-spoke as my stroke sometimes speaks before my brain starts working... especially when I try to do more things at several times.
My stroke helps rattle me, then i come undone; I'll be happier when I get Home.