The origin of Rapture Doctrine

[P1LGR1M]

I still believe from what I see the rapture will take place when Jesus comes in the louds, and he will desend to destroy the antichrist and all who accepted the mark of the beast.

Many do. I do not, as if this is true...all will be glorified. It is a necessity that there are physical believers, who physically live through the Tribulation, who enter into the Kingdom prepared for them. If unbelievers survive, then there are certain passages which are called into question in my view.


It suggests that there is no need for people to believe now, they can, like many of the lost now mistakenly believe, wait until they see the signs before "getting right with God."


If it is true that there is no pre-trib rapture, then all one needs to do is wait until the Tribulation starts...then repent and be saved. The problem with that is that it is clear that when this occurs, God will send strong delusion upon those that will believe Antichrist and his lies. Many make this general mistake. I myself, when I was young...thought that way.

Progressive Dispensationalists take this view, that there will be a large part of the world's population that will not participate in this judgment. Among men will be many around the world which will live through the Tribulation unaffected. This is something you will, as you study scripture, come to a conclusion for yourself about. I would suggest that a focus on scripture precede a study of the commentaries which teach a particular view. It is good to see why one believes the way they do, but there is a need to place the word of God first. As mentioned before, be patient before making a conclusion, rather than decide what sounds best and then going through scripture to proof-text that conclusion. This is easy to do.

One of the things to keep in mind is that we are told that there are certain people that will not enter the Kingdom, and what we need to do is decide whether these teachings refer to the earthly Kingdom or the invisible Kingdom which is "inside men." Both are literal Kingdoms, yet if we decide, as our amillennial brothers do, that the earthly Kingdom will not occur, then we can not worry about many passages in scripture, Revelation among them.

Take this passage, for instance:


Zechariah 13

King James Version (KJV)


1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.



In the Kingdom, false prophets will not have reign as they do today, for all will know the Lord, and this because of His presence. False prophets will hide the evidence of their idolatry, and even parents will not spare thier sons should they rebel against the Lord.

Here we see what could be called localized judgment, and here it is one third that survives.

In Revelation we are given some percentages concerning the earth's population:


Revelation 6

King James Version (KJV)



7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.



After the Sixth Seal judgment we see a number among Israel sealed:


Revelation 7

King James Version (KJV)


1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.



Those sealed are said to be of the Tribes of Israel. After their sealing we see many from among all the tribes of the earth:


9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


I hate to be dogmatic about this passage, concerning the "great tribulation" which these from all nations, kindreds, peoples and tongues come from, as it is possible that here we see those of the Church (implied in they "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, but, which could refer to those that preceded the Cross as well) who died in general tribulation and persecution rather than in the Great Tribulation of this time. The Seal Judgments speak, I believe, of events that while monumental in severity, are a combination of natural calamities which many will be used to seeing (such as we saw in the Phillipine Tsunami) as well as deaths due to wars and plague.

During these judgments we see mention of a fourth part of the earth given over to die in these events. If we take a general view that there are 7 billion on earth at this time, that is roughly 1.75 billion people that die.

The Seventh Seal Judgment contains, I believe, the Seven Trumpet Judgments. In other words, the Seventh Seal Judgment is the Seven trumpet Judgments.

The sixth Trumpet Judgment:


Revelation 9:13-18

King James Version (KJV)


13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.



Here we see a third part of men killed, by what I believe to be a demon host. If we take the death toll from the Seal judgments and combine it with this toll, which I believe we can clearly see is distinguished from the previous death toll, in that it says..."By these three," then we come up with half of the world's population dead.

That's roughly 3 1/2 billion people.

At the end of the Tribulation, satanic efforts will have a focus on Jerusalem which will require, as mentioned before, seven years to destroy their weaponry (which I believe will be used as firewood for various purposes) and seven months to cleanse the land from the corpses that have been feasted upon by birds and beasts.

One way to reconcile events and to prove a post-tribulational rapture is accomplished by certain Progressive Dispensationalists by making the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments as actually being the same judgments...just parenthetical descriptions of the same events. I think if we look at the events, though, we will see enough difference between them to conclude that the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments are separate judgments, not the same ones.

We see in the midst of these judgments Israel playing a distinctive role. It is held by many that those of the Twelve Tribes that are sealed will be those that evangelize the world. It will be they that lead others to Christ.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

But the more I think about it the more I feel there will be people who do not accept the mark and they will bow to Jesus when they see him and realize he is the Lord God... and because at that moment they give themselves to him he will spare them... and they will populate the millennial kingdom.

This is true, and "eleventh hour" believers will be as saved as those who are saved early on in the Tribulation. However, for those that have heard the Gospel and as 1st Thessalonians describes as "having not the Gospel and not knowing God," there is little chance of salvation.

We keep in mind that salvation is wholly the work of God. When one is saved, it is the result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that leads men to salvation. The only true act of free will I recognize in man concerning salvation is the free will to reject Christ. For those that resist the Holy Spirit, they are given over to reprobate minds. They become "past feeling," Paul tells us, and their conscience is seared as with a hot iron.

However, we also recognize that because it is the Holy Spirit which brings conviction in the hearts of men, conviction which man responds to in either positive or negative response, then we also have to recognize that just because someone has heard of Christ does not mean that 1) it was a delivery of a valid Gospel message; 2)...the Holy Spirit honored that message with His convicting work.

In other words, many people have heard of Jesus Christ, but have never once heard a valid Gospel message. If the Gospel has not been heard, then they do not not Who or what to believe. I think there are, even in the many fellowships around the world, those that have never come under the convicting work of the Spirit of God. I heard of Christ many times before I was saved, but it was not until the Holy Spirit grasped my attention and revealed to me the truth of the Gospel was i able to respond to Him in repentance, beleif, and faith.

Again, I am still studying it but it makes sense to me. When Jesus was on the cross and the guy on the cross beside him realized Jesus really was the king of kings, Jesus forgave him and told him there would be a place in heaven for him.

Actually, the Lord at no time said the thief would "be in Heaven" with Him. What He did say was...


Luke 23:43

King James Version (KJV)


43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.



While some take "Paradise" to be Heaven, we consider a few things that would indicate that it was not Heaven the Lord referred to:

"Paradise" is used in the New Testament three times (here, 2 Corinthians 12:4, and Revelation 2:7), and we can see that in the latter two Heaven would be the likely conclusion in 2nd Corinthians and in Revelation 2:7 it would be the Eternal State in View.

Now we do not think that the Lord or the thief went to the Eternal State (which follows this heaven and earth passing away), and we consider where it was the Lord did go when He died, that very day. Just as the Lord used the word "Hades" in luke 16, which is actually a Greek concept, but correlates to the Old Testament concept of Sheol, even so here I believe He is referring to "Paradise," which in Hebrew tradition refers also to Hades, or Sheol, Paradise being the "resting place" of the Just Dead. In Luke 16, which is hotly debated among believers as to whether it should be viewed as literal or not, the Lord teaches a separation between the rich man, who finds himself in torment, and Lazarus, who is said to be taken into the "Bosom of Abraham," which is also a traditional term for the resting place of the Just Dead.

In other words, I view the Lord to be telling the thief, "Today you will be in Paradise, the Bosom of Abraham." I also believe that it is here that the Lord went to liberate those among the dead that by faith had righteousness accredited to them, but until the death of Christ...had not had those sins taken away.

And this is just one view among many, but if we consider the Lord's teaching about His Return to Heaven, and we see a visible return, the Ascension of Christ, in Acts 1, it implies at least that the Lord had not returned to Heaven from whence He came...until that time. Making it unlikely that the thief, on the day of his death, went to Heaven.

So would it not make sense that there could be people at the last minute give themselves to Jesus when they see him and see he is the Lord God?

If you mean when He appears in the Clouds, no, I doubt that very much.


2 Thessalonians 1

King James Version (KJV)



7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



"In all them that believe" refers only to believers. Those that at this time, His Return, that is, that have rejected Him, are still alive, will be destroyed. At His return we read of the separation of the sheep and the goats:


Matthew 25

King James Version (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


This judgment, without question, follows the Return of Christ. In the preceding parables we see those cast out of the Kingdom. Not the Kingdom of God which is the reign of God in the hearts of the saved, but the earthly kingdom established by Christ, at which time, as mentioned in many places, those that offend have no entrance.

Those that are not "unprofitable servants" (those left) are told:


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Those that are like the unprofitable servant are told:


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


The goats, those on the left hand, go into everlasting punishment, while the sheep go into life eternal. We of ourselves cannot be eternal (having no beginning or ending) except that it be through association with He that is Eternal, that is, the Son of God.

The many parables of Christ usually point to the time in which the judgment of God falls upon those of this age. If we distinguish the teaching as it refers to the Millennial Kingdom, it is just my opinion that many of the Parables are more easily understood.

The rapture would have already taken place so they would populate the millennial kingdom... possibly.

Now BeeWrangler, I would just ask you to consider that you are seeking to find an answer to the question, "Who populates the Millennial Kingdom?" It is a valid question that, unless one is amillennial, has to be answered with...those that are saved during the Tribulation. That is the only way to reconcile all teachings concerning the Rapture, the Tribulation, and the Millennial Kingdom. As to whether one takes an amillennial view, while it is true that this position has held more adherents through the history of the Church, it does not mean that amillennialism was the first view to be popular. From what I understand, it was not until later in Church History that a pre-millennial view was replaced by an amillennial. I would have to review this, which I am loathe to do as I give little attention to tradition, but rather seek to understand scripture through a lens provided by God, rather than men. We all have to reach certain conclusions on our own, let's just be sure we reach those conclusions and it is not a matter of just embracing someone else's.

What you suggest here is that the Church goes through the Tribulation, is raptured prior to the Return of Christ, and then there are many who suddenly come to faith and these populate the Kingdom. Consider those of Israel that are preserved in a place of safety for 3 1/2 years, for instance: these would not be glorified? We are told that there will be those that escape in the Tribulation, because they are found worthy: would we think it a matter of just a brief time before the Lord's return?

But, this is a new thought that I can't remember coming across before. I think as you dig into this, though, you will let this go.

But I still don't understand why all pre-trib believers are convinced they will be raptured before the tribulation if they also believe only half of them will be raptured?

I know of no credible teacher that teaches this. Not that I know all Prophecy teachers, but I see no scriptural basis to negate Paul's teaching that we will all be raised...at the same time.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



It seems to be all inclusive: both the dead in Christ and those that remain are caught up. I would throw in that when the Lord returns physically as described in Revelation 19, Angels are said to gather the elect:


Matthew 24:31

King James Version (KJV)


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mark 13:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



These can be, I believe, distinguished from those caught away, in that I believe these are the sheep mentioned who will physically go into the Millennial Kingdom.

Does that not mean it will be a 50/50 chance that they (as an individual) are raptured before the tribulation?

Some may take this view, I do not. In the catching away it is always implied that all that are in Christ will be caught up.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

King James Version (KJV)


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


"We shall all be changed," and with the inclusion of the phrase "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," it seems to indicate that only one event is in view, as you cannot have all being changed "at the last trump" in the twinkling of an eye except it be speaking of a singular event.

Another aspect to consider concerning a pre-trib rapture can be found in this passage, where Paul says "Behold I show you a mystery."

A mystery is a previously unrevealed truth, and resurrection, though limited in scope, is not something that was absent from Old Testament teaching, therefore, what Paul is saying is "I am showing you something that has not been revealed before," and then teaches about the resurrection of the Church, to whom he was writing.

That a mystery refers to previously unrevealed truth can be seen here:


1 Corinthians 2:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


And you can study "mystery" here.

And hopefully, this will give a little motivation toward looking at these issues, and I am sure the Lord will direct you in your studies.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This is an effort to examine the statements made to "prove" that a pre-millennial, pre-tribulational view has no merit. Some of the statements made in this link are hateful toward other believers, linking them to groups holding doctrinal positions that are truly questionable.

Calling a pre-tribulational view demon doctrine shows the intention of the site, and a look at the information given here will be for most bible students...humorous.


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[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Introduction:[/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']See our main Rapture page here.[/font]
1.Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church.

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Is it? This is laughable, really: "new doctrine" can be seen being developed on this very site...every day. Probably one of the most significant that I would mention which in light of current events would come from Progressive Dispensationalists. It is held, at least by those I am familiar with (and we know it is a mistake to think that if one goes by a name all adherents take the same view on every issue), that the Antichrist will come from the Muslim world. An aquaintance of mine, who I am in disagreement with, though I love this guy as a brother in Christ and have the utmost respect for, has this to say on his site:


With great anticipation, the Islamic world awaits a “savior.” They call him “The Mahdi.” They believe that he will unite the Muslim world together against all who refuse to submit to Islam, creating peace and lasting security by leading all nations into a new era of global Islamic “justice.” This year, at the annual United Nations General Assembly and in front of millions of people around the world, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announced that we would soon witness a new “global management” ruled by the “perfect human being” Imam Al-Mahdi along with his deputy, the prophet “Jesus Christ.”

He goes on to say:

The world of Biblical eschatology has undergone a major shift over the past few years. Many discerning Christians now recognize immediately this “Islamic messiah” as a prime candidate for the Biblical Antichrist.

Until the rise of Islam...a belief such as this was unknown. Why? Because until Islam not only came into existance, and then achieved a status of power in the world, could such consideration come into view.

But what lies at the heart of this particular article (the one being addressed here) is the question "Will there be a Millennial Kingdom?"​

Most who take the view that there will be see in Revelation events which could not possibly be seen as being fulfilled in the First Century. I hope to address some of those issues as this progresses, or, perhaps someone with an amillennial view will step up to present the basis of their belief. I am a bit surprised at this article, as well as what I consider to be hat-tricks they employ (such as the link in here to "learn more about the rapture" where they guide you through links which limit discussion, such as making the claim that Revelation is only for the Seven Churches, and interpreting "the things which must shortly come to pass" making "shortly to have only a definition of "soon," rather than "when they happen, they will occur quickly."

And I must apologize for the way this might post, as some of the paragraph seems to have gone astray for some reason leaving it uneven. I will try to correct as much of that as I can.

The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

Honestly, I am reminded of certain Tracts by this article. Not that there are not some good ones, but there is an underlying aspect of dishonesty and hatred.

So it is evil to give an invitation? I think it a good idea to look at what they say about this:



The Sinner's Prayer:
"Modern apostasy and false teaching that prevents men from being saved."
The earliest notion of sinners prayer is less than 500 years old. It wasn't formalized as a theology until around the time of Billy Graham.
No one in the Bible ever prayed for their initial salvation. They did however believe, repent, confess Jesus and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins. The sinners prayer is a an innovation that thwarts God's plan of salvation. First they replaced believers baptism by immersion with infant baptism by sprinkling. Second they later replaced baptism altogether with the "sinners prayer" so that baptism is no longer even part of the plan of salvation. If you prayed the "sinners prayer" for your salvation, you are still lost in your sins, because it is not what God said to do.



Where do these guys get their information? Note that first they say "Billy Sunday (called by some "God's joke on preachers," because he was lacking in formal education) invented this in 1930" and then say "the earliest notion is less than 500 years old."

Might be time to hire an editor, fellas.

But look at the statements: "No one in the Bible ever prayed for their initial salvation."

Is this true? The author pads his argument by speaking of "initial salvation." So show me in scripture where we read of "initial salvation?" What we can see is that the time of salvation for most in the Bible is never mentioned, initial or not. When we do see occurrences of salvation, we read:



Acts 2:37-38

King James Version (KJV)


37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


These men ask Peter and the disciples for direction. SCripture tells us repentance is in place, and folks, it is God that brings man to repentance unto salvation. Peter did not do this, but the Spirit of God convicting their hearts through the word of God did this. Those that embrace Baptismal regeneration would, like the author of this article, wrest this event to teach conditional salvation. Only God can change the heart, and when men come under conviction...they are often in need of direction. Repentance can be seen in the act of one calling out to God for Him to have mercy. In the sinners prayer this is echoed. Here are a few examples of how calling out to God is something that runs throughout scripture:



Psalm 4:1

King James Version (KJV)


4 Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.


God is the Savior, most Christians agree on this. When the Old Testament Saint, who did not have specific revelation concerning the Person of Jesus the Christ, called out for salvation he called out to God.



Psalm 69:1

King James Version (KJV)


69 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.



As we near the Day of Pentecost at which time the Comforter comes, we see another example of a man calling out to God:



Luke 18:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


Sounds like a sinner praying to me. Did this man's actions thwart the work of God in his heart?

The next example is a little long, but I realize that due to the length of this post, it is likely few will read it, but for those that do, my hope is that it will help as we examine the claims of this site:


Acts 8:26-38

King James Version (KJV)


26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.


God has in the Church gifted men to teach, and the Eunuch is taught of God by Philip.


32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.



The word is preached, the Eunuch believes, and Philip tells him that beleiving with all his heart is necessary, the corollary being if he does not believe...there is no need to be baptized. But we see the word of God preached, a profession of belief, and baptism following. Where is the Eunuch's "initial salvation?" We don't see that, but we do see a public profession of faith first to Philip and then in his baptism. When is he saved? Who led him to be reading in Isaiah? Who brought someone that could expound upon scripture that he might hear the Gospel?

It is the Lord that brought this man to saving faith, and we see not an "initial salvation," but the clear process of events which we understand all men and women to go through when they are saved: God bringing them to a saving belief in the word, a saving faith in Christ, and a public profession before others that one believes.

Is one saved because they say the "sinner's prayer?" Not necessarily. Whether they remain in the Body of Christ is one of the surest evidences, and that also not conclusive. However, to say that the sinner's prayer "prevents men from being saved" is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard.

There is more that could be said on this point, but I am running out of time, so I will move on.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

2.

The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true.

Paul the Apostle taught the Rapture in the First Century. A premillennial view was the primary view of the early Church, amillennialism "invented" about the third century or so and gaining great popularity in following centuries. "Millennialism," also known as "Chiliasm," was opposed in the early Church, showing that it is not new.

That the view that there would be no Millennial Kingdom has held more followers does not make it true. There have probably been more people that believe infant baptism saves than not...does that make it true?

The common charge that a pre-tribulational view is new is a ridiculous charge at the least, seeing that Paul taught a Rapture (a word that some stumble at not recognizing this common term for "harpazo" stems from latin translations) in the first century, is it not more relevant to question the doctrine of Amillennial belief?

As I have said before, it is just my personal belief that amillennialism gains favor in those that find the Lord's tarrying to be uncomfortable. As it is written...



2 Peter 3:3-4

King James Version (KJV)


3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Some find it difficult to see the Lord waiting this long to return, and amillennialism is a convenient theology to remove this issue.

All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture.

"Confused the second coming with the First Resurrection?"

I am not even sure what that is supposed to mean? We see the Second Coming in Revelation 19, and immediately following we see the First Resurrection. Two entirely different events, however, occurring closely together. We are not told of a separation of events in Revelation, and the sequence of events follows: The Lord returns, His adversaries are destroyed, Satan is bound for a thousand years, Tribulation Martyrs are resurrected and reign with Christ...one thousand years.

I was recently asked by a member here recently, "Why does a thousand years have to mean a thousand years?"

You can work that one out, folks, if you choose.

Revelation does not say, "As a thousand years," but six times sets the time as "one thousand years." And when one "interprets" a thousand years as a thousand years, he is called "hyper-literal."

As far as "evidence of a pre-trib rapture before 1830, they supply one in the very same sentence! Amazing.

Now, lets look at Church HIstory which most amillennials honor nearly on a level of scripture: do we see an environment where doctrine that opposes the "popular doctrine" is available? Was not the word of God held captive from the common man for many centuries?

And they want evidence? How about the evidence that the premillennial view was not only known was was widely embraced by the Early Church? Does that matter?

Like I said, this is almost laughable. I can understand how one can come to embrace an amillennial position, and that is not something that I consider to be a matter to break fellowship over. I have friends of this view who I believe to be brothers in Christ. I also find them to be slightly lazy in their studies and rely heavily on Church History, but brothers in Christ all the same. So I have to take exception to an article like this, which is the first time I can remember such a vitriolic presentation against a pre-trib view and those that hold this position.

However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

How many before Edwards tried to present such a view? I am surprised even this pre-Darby occurrence is admitted.


3.

Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

The fact is that any such reference would be undermined by people who take this approach which ultimately hopes to sway people to an amillennial view. Ancient evidence is in itself lacking in general, and with the rise in popularity of the amillennial view, it is not surprising there is little to consider.


4.

Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches.

When we consider that scripture clearly teaches a premillennial view, in that it is difficult to see the Promises of God to Israel fulfilled without the Kingdom restored unto Israel and also difficult to see the Tribulation Martyrs reigning with Christ for a thousand years without this Kingdom, the only question to ask here is...how in the world can one embrace amillennialism (and just as a note, I am foregoing any "LOLs" as they are not appreciated by some, but folks, if I were employing them, this is a good place for one).

If we are premillennial, then a pretribulational rapture is reasonable as the First Resurrection takes place just before the Millennial Kingdom begins which begs the question, "If all are resurrected/glorified, who populates the Kingdom?" Answer that question and you might be on your way to convincing me to take on a post-trib view.

As to whether it is "secret" or not, I know of no credible teacher that even teaches a "secret rapture." Tim LaHaye, a well known teacher and author who has become a favorite whipping boy of both post-trib and amillennial adherents, has the clothing of saints left laying out: how would that be a secret? But this is simply terminology that those opposed to the pre-trib rapture view use to discredit this view. As for me, I am not dogmatic as to the particulars of the Body of Christ being resurrected before the Tribulation as an event that will be all that noticable. For one, I believe that the Body of Christ is a minority among the world's population. Christ taught the many and the few. Statistics are quick to claim high percentages of "Christians" in the world but the World itself denies such statistics. I also lean heavily toward the belief that when the Tribulation begins, there will be massive disruption to society in general. Beginning with the Second Seal Judgment we can expect great loss of life. We see that already in these times. So will it be "secret?" I don't think so, I just think it will go unnoticed for the most part. And just as it has been true in history as well as today...sometimes the truth is not what the "media" broadcasts.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

Demon Doctrine? No more than denying the Millennial Reign of Christ which is spoken of throughout scripture, both Old and New Testaments.

But we do see demon doctrine condemned in history, which would include believing completely in the word and work of faith. That too was a very popular belief that exists to this day.



5.

While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism.

And not all that believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture can rightly be called Dispensationalists, as there are some of us that differ concerning a few issues, and would be condemned by dispensationalists that do not consider one that disagrees with their doctrine as possibly being saved and belonging to the Lord.

Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.

This is false: I am pretrib and I do not, at all, consider Modern Israel to be a fulfillment of the promises of God. Modern Israel is in large part a secular nation that is ripe to fulfill the Seventieth Week of Judgment prescribed by God Himself. Throughout the world are dispersed many Israeli people who will, in fulfillment of Ezekial 36, be brought into their own land. They will be cleansed, be washed with pure water, have removed from them hearts of stone which will be replaced with a new heart, they will be given a new spirit, and God will place His Spirit within them that they might obey His statutes and ordinances.

In other words, folks...they will be born again at this time. That will not take place until the Tribulation begins.


6.

All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return.

Another falsehood. The mistake is to, first, presume that most who are pretribulational in view have even a clue as to why they are pretribulational apart from the fact that their Pastor is. The second mistake is to lump all believers into the same group, rather than recognizing that we all are on different levels of study and understanding. The last mistake is understimating your opponent's understanding. If you take it for granted that ALL pretrib believers follow a Left Behind theology without alteration, then you will be susceptiple to making ludicrous statements such as this.

Most will agree that the return of Christ is imminent, and that motivates us to holy living and seeking to be used of God to lead the lost to Christ. And that is as far as I go. I don't, as the author concludes, fall into either a date-setter or date-teaser category. Sorry to disappoint.

The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible.

Yes, and they also had a monotheistic theology which surprisingly...has also been a very popular view throughout Church History. We can find among the Founding Fathers of America those that leaned heavily toward a monotheistic religion. One historician termed them Theistic Rationalists. Jefferson is thought to deny the supernatural as the Sadducees did.

It is quite ridiculous to cast into the same category faiths that are so opposed to each other in numerous primary doctrines which make them quite different and to compare them due to similarity on a few points. There are a number of points where we would see similarities between Jehovah's Witnesses which in no way would make them comparable.

Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.

But not all. That is the mistake of the author. It is a cheap tactic which must be employed in order to avoid discussion of scripture itself.


7.

There are two kinds of premillennialists: Those "Date setters" and "Date Teasers".

Another false statement, as there are numerous premillennial beliefs. Pre, mid, and post are the primary categories which can then be broken down among numerous differences as to the sequence of events they see taking place.

What the author makes the mistake of doing is not reckoning those that set dates as false prophets, and calling those that consider current events and seek to see how they might fit an end-time scenario as date-teasers shows the need to create terms to fit their critical view of those that embrace a pre-trib view.

And if we cannot expect an honest treatment, much less a Christ-like attitude, why would we give them any credence?

I'll tell you why: because despite differences in matters eschatological, many amil believers are our brothers and sisters, and should we be as disparaging as this document has been...we bring condemnation upon Christ Himself in condemning other Christians. When it comes to doctrinal differences, we should come together to discuss these things, rather than condemn those that likely belong to God before a world that is literally dying for excuses to reject Christ.

You want to see some "new doctrine?" Go spend some time in the Unorthodox section of this forum. Does their salvation mean anything?



"

Date setters", set specific dates which are in fact a countdown clock to the extinction of their own ministries.

And most of us recognize them for the false prophets they are.

However, While we do not know the day or the hour, we are told that the Day of the Lord will not come upon us as a thief as it will the world. We also see the rebuke of the Lord for those that could not understand the signs of the times. That leaves me with a view that the Lord means for us to have our eyes open, not sitting around thinking as the mockers that the Day of Christ is far off. Better to expect Him at any moment and keep an eye on what is going on around us than to settle into a comfortable existance with His return spiritualized into a non-event.


(

William Miller, Charles Russell, Ronald Weinland, Harold Camping, etc.)

What about them? They have deceived many, but what has that to do with a pretribulational view which is closer to Early Church belief than amillennialism?


"

Date teasers", share the same rhetoric of urgency that the "end is very soon", but refuse to lock into a specific date.

Would you find James to be a date teaser?

James 5:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.




(

Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Pentecostals, Baptists, Grant Jefferies, Christadelphians.)

What do they say about a little bit of poison in a glass of water? Not all Pentecostals or Baptists are pre-trib. But I have met some that love the Lord, and despite not being flawless doctrinally, I would caution condemning wholesale those you have not met and cannot possibly know their spiritual condition.


8.

Most of the TV preachers who promote rapture and/or "date set" all wrongly believe they are a prophet of God with special illumination.

There are those who appear on TV who make it clear in their ministries that they are not prophets, such as John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, and Charles Stanley. While many that do appear on TV can be seen, even by an unbelieving world, to be charlatans who seek to profit on those they deceive, I fail to see how this "proves" there will be no pretribulational rapture.

Pentecostals believe they are inspired directly from the Holy Spirit as modern day prophets.

Some do. Relevance?

Baptists believe they are illuminated with guidance from the Holy Spirit through the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible grace.

Again I have to ask...where do these guys get their information? Many Baptists believe that God does indeed illuminate scripture to those that diligently seek Him through His word, however, to say that all Baptists rely on Calvinistic Doctrine is in error.

The link teaches that the five points of Calvinism are not taught in the Bible, and to that I would say...let's discuss them. While there are going to be points within Calvinism that some, but not all Baptists embrace, this does not make one a Calvinist.

Now I ask, concerning scripture...who leads you in your study? The answer will probably involve some historical figure, I guess.


9.

Christians reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine.

No, Christians do not reject that God leads men in understanding His word. And I will take the word of God over the words of your favorite teachers...any day.

This is amazing, and hard to believe it is said...by a Christian.


.

Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']

[/font]

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Further study:[/font]
1. Does Revelation prophecy today's current events?
2. Did the last days begin this century? Are we living in the last days yet?
3. Who is the ANTICHRIST?
4. 50 ways Rapture and pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

[/font]

And this last, well, if you are the kind of person that buys into tactics such as we have looked at in this first portion of the first link, then...you might benefit from the source for a fellowship that fosters hatred for others. This is by far one of the most crippling issues in the Body of Christ today: we alone have it right.

Folks, no-one has everything right. Can we proclaim one does not belong to God because they do not agree with us? It is God they must agree with, and it is God that makes them "agreeable," as it is He that convicts. And while we might be blessed, like Philip, to be used in this process, let not confuse that with thinking more highly of our roles than we ought to.

I looked at the first link given, and suggest looking at it, if you care to see a poorly construed game of sorts. I would like to discuss their reasoning with them, but tactics like these are not meant to give someone a chance to point out some obvious errors in the reasoning.

Lastly, if there is an amillennial believer that would like to discuss their view, I would love to discuss it with you.

God bless.

 

[DeaconDean]

With all the contetion here over this doctrine, and the overwhelming attitude ofr those who don't believe towards those who do, I find it strange that the OP has not bothered to post since starting this thread.

Strange indeed.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BeeWrangler]

I have been wanting to get back into this discussion, but am holding off for now. I have not put it on the back burner, I am still studying it and still feel strongly the rapture will be post-trib, but I by far do not have all the answers to the questions asked to me by P1gr1m... not sure if there is an answer to those questions as I could very well be wrong lol. One thing I have always done is plan for the worst so I will prepare for what my family and I will do should we be on earth at that time and should there be no pre-trib rapture... but if we are here and there is a pre-trib rapture then I will be far beyond happy to admit I was wrong lol. But if we are here for those years of hell then I want a plan and be ready for it.
I have been avoiding doing internet searches on post-trib so it would not put others idea's in my head but I think I will start looking into what others say will take place and see if it makes sense, because I really am stumped on some of the above questions. I will be back in on this at some point, but I am surprised no other post-tribbers tried to answer the questions... like who will be in the millennial kingdom?

 

[Hentenza]

Sadly, many Christians would rather learn their eschatology from the Left Behind series, than scholarly studies and exegesis of the Bible.

Here is a sermon that has survived from Pseudo-Ephraem the Syrian (306-373 AD), and fully describes a pre-tribulation rapture: “All the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

BTW- Can you point to any early ECF (1st or 2nd century) that taught Amil?

 

[DeaconDean]

Here is a sermon that has survived from Pseudo-Ephraem the Syrian (306-373 AD), and fully describes a pre-tribulation rapture: “All the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

BTW- Can you point to any early ECF (1st or 2nd century) that taught Amil?

You do realize that you according to most here, you are helping to spread a false doctrine, heresy, if you will, taught by false teachers, not taught or endorsed by the Apostles or scripture, guilty of giving false hope to millions, and are a boarderline heretic?

Welcome to the club.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hentenza]

You do realize that you according to most here, you are helping to spread a false doctrine, heresy, if you will, taught by false teachers, not taught or endorsed by the Apostles or scripture, guilty of giving false hope to millions, and are a boarderline heretic?

Welcome to the club.

God Bless

Till all are one.

lol I've always been "in" the club.

 

[BeeWrangler]

You do realize that you according to most here, you are helping to spread a false doctrine, heresy, if you will, taught by false teachers, not taught or endorsed by the Apostles or scripture, guilty of giving false hope to millions, and are a boarderline heretic?

Welcome to the club.

God Bless

Till all are one.

LOL! Personally I can't speak for others, but I figure more power to pre-tribers. I hope there is a pre-trib rapture... I pray there is a pre-trib rapture... but I am not holding my breath. I am not able to think of a single time in the bible that had an easy way out... not one single time. Even Noah, who was not killed by the flood still had to go thru it and I'm sure it was not like the luxury of a Carnival cruise ship. I really can not think of one bible story that was peaches and cream... so why all threw the history of the bible, from the time that Eve ate the apple has there not been an easy way out for Christians? The bible even says broad is the way that leads to destruction but difficult is the way that leads to life... I would really like someone who believes in pre-trib to explain to me why since Eve ate the apple is the only time in the history of the bible that there has been an easy way out without having to endure any hardship at all will be the rapture. Why has every single event mentioned in the bible been a stuggle for Christians? If we are here for the rapture why will we be so lucky to gently float into the sky just before the anti-Christ comes? What makes us so special that we get the easy way out but all other Christians have had to struggle their way thru past biblical events? Please don't tell me Noah did not struggle on that boat.

 

[Hentenza]

LOL! Personally I can't speak for others, but I figure more power to pre-tribers. I hope there is a pre-trib rapture... I pray there is a pre-trib rapture... but I am not holding my breath. I am not able to think of a single time in the bible that had an easy way out... not one single time. Even Noah, who was not killed by the flood still had to go thru it and I'm sure it was not like the luxury of a Carnival cruise ship. I really can not think of one bible story that was peaches and cream... so why all threw the history of the bible, from the time that Eve ate the apple has there not been an easy way out for Christians? The bible even says broad is the way that leads to destruction but difficult is the way that leads to life... I would really like someone who believes in pre-trib to explain to me why since Eve ate the apple is the only time in the history of the bible that there has been an easy way out without having to endure any hardship at all will be the rapture. Why has every single event mentioned in the bible been a stuggle for Christians? If we are here for the rapture why will we be so lucky to gently float into the sky just before the anti-Christ comes? What makes us so special that we get the easy way out but all other Christians have had to struggle their way thru past biblical events? Please don't tell me Noah did not struggle on that boat.

Noah could just as easily had perished along with the rest. His faith saved him. God made it easy. Christ has also made it easy for us sinners. He paid the price so that we would not have to.

1 Thess. 5
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[BeeWrangler]

Noah could just as easily had perished along with the rest. His faith saved him. God made it easy. Christ has also made it easy for us sinners. He paid the price so that we would not have to.

1 Thess. 5
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I know his faith saved him, but that does not mean spending all that time on a boat with huge waves and a bunch of animals did not suck. I'm not asking why we should not endure the wrath of God when he comes, I know we are not going to be part of that... pre-trib, post-trib or any trib believers know we will be raptured before God's wrath. I'm talking about the pure hell that will come once the anti-Christ shows his true colors... that is not the wrath of God. The anti-Christ will be toast when God shows his wrath.

 

[BeeWrangler]

What I am trying to say is this... every day in some countries around the world there are women and children beaten, raped and killed for not denying Christ. They live with this fear day in and day out. Yes, God prepairs them and yes, God comforts them and yes, God has a place ready for them in heaven... but you can't tell me the people who are beaten raped and murdered don't mind, that they would not avoid it if possible. It is not the wrath of God that is doing it. So my question is very simple.. what makes us so special that we will not endure any hardship when the tribulation comes?

 

[DeaconDean]

lol I've always been "in" the club.

Let me add to what you previously said:

Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's Epistles to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

Considering first rapture according to readiness is a deeper truth (Luke 21.36; Rev. 3.10, 12.5)-as proven-you wouldn't expect a lot of early church fathers to get it. It is usually only understood and appreciated by spiritual Christians. The quotes posttribers use to argue the church fathers only taught posttrib rapture usually only deal with the fact of His return and the last trumpet resurrection. But in no way does this preclude their awareness of a first rapture of an advanced party of overcomer believers who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful. Since Matthew (24.42), Mark (13.32), Luke (21.36), Paul (1 Cor. 15.23) and John (Rev. 3.10, 6.9-11, 7.9, 11.15, 12.5, 14.1-5) all taught a first rapture according to readiness, should we not accept it?

Early Church Fathers Taught a First Rapture Before the Tribulation




Let me also add that scriptures already show, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least two "raptures" have already happened.

1. "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen. 5:24 (KJV) John Gill Comments: "out of the world by death, according to1Ki 19:4 "for he was translated, that he should not see death", Heb 11:5 nor was he annihilated, or reduced to nothing, "for God took him", and therefore he must exist somewhere: but the sense is, he was not in the land of the living, he was no longer in this world; or with the inhabitants of the earth, as the Targum of Jonathan paraphrases it; but the Lord took him to himself out of the world, in love to him, and removed him from earth to heaven, soul and body, as Elijah was taken; (Source)
2. "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." -2 Kings 2:11 (KJV) John Gill also comments saying: "body and soul; such a change passing on him, as he went through the region of the air, which divested him of his mortality and corruption, and fitted him for the invisible world." (Ibid)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[P1LGR1M]

LOL! Personally I can't speak for others, but I figure more power to pre-tribers. I hope there is a pre-trib rapture... I pray there is a pre-trib rapture... but I am not holding my breath. I am not able to think of a single time in the bible that had an easy way out... not one single time. Even Noah, who was not killed by the flood still had to go thru it and I'm sure it was not like the luxury of a Carnival cruise ship. I really can not think of one bible story that was peaches and cream... so why all threw the history of the bible, from the time that Eve ate the apple has there not been an easy way out for Christians? The bible even says broad is the way that leads to destruction but difficult is the way that leads to life... I would really like someone who believes in pre-trib to explain to me why since Eve ate the apple is the only time in the history of the bible that there has been an easy way out without having to endure any hardship at all will be the rapture. Why has every single event mentioned in the bible been a stuggle for Christians? If we are here for the rapture why will we be so lucky to gently float into the sky just before the anti-Christ comes? What makes us so special that we get the easy way out but all other Christians have had to struggle their way thru past biblical events? Please don't tell me Noah did not struggle on that boat.

Hello Beewrangler, a couple of things to consider:

First, before the Cross of Christ there were no "Christians," only those that had a general faith in God without the benefit of the revelation of the mystery of Christ which leads men to place their faith specifically in the Person of Jesus Christ and His death in the place of sinful man. Paul makes this clear, I believe, here:


1 Corinthians 2:5-10

King James Version (KJV)


5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Many take the quotation (Isaiah 64:4) to refer to Heaven, when in fact it is a reference to the mystery of Christ. If the princes of this world understood this mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord. Had Satan known it, he would have assigned bodyguards and would have surely led the detail.

Secondly, we do see an "easy way out" even in the Tribulation itself:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)


1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.




John goes on to record...


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


This would, I would think, negate the argument that "God does not give an easy way out" from the Tribulation. The 3 1/2 years of protection afforded to the Woman (Israel, from which the Child, Christ, came from) keep her safe from the efforts of Satan. It is my belief that this particular 3 1/2 years is the last half of the Tribulation.

It is when we go through the objections presented by others that we are able to test the foundation we base our views on, and it is a great way to eliminate certain objections.

The Tribulation is said by the Lord to...


Matthew 24:37

King James Version (KJV)


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


One of the aspects of the judgment in the days of Noah is that it was...complete. All of the wicked were eradicated from the face of the earth in that judgment. In Sodom, only those considered righteous (2 Peter 2:7) escaped judgment, and this because they were taken out, not through. It could be said that Noah as well was taken out of the flood, as he did not go into the medium of judgment for that time, but, I am willing to cede that from one perspective he went "through it."

Hope that helps.

God bless.

 

[BeeWrangler]

Let me add to what you previously said:



Early Church Fathers Taught a First Rapture Before the Tribulation

With all respect Decon I take all teachings on the rapture with a grain of salt, men are men, sinners... I only care what the bible says because I know it is the only thing I can trust without second guess. If there was an unquestionable answer bluntly put in the bible as to the rapture being pre or post trib there would not be (I'm guessing) millions of Christians fighting back and fourth tooth and nail as to when the rapture will take place. Personally I couldn't be bothered wasting my time fighting over when it will be because I could really care less. I know we are discussing it and not fighting over it, if tempers started to flare I would back down because to me it is not important, if God wanted all Christians to know the 100% true answer he would have bluntly said that it would be before or after the tribulation but for whatever reason, he did not and that is why out of all the millions of Christians it is more or less split down the middle as to who believes pre or post trib rapture. It might be a different story for example if it was a subject on gay marriage, the bible is very blunt about that and most (if not all) true Christians agree to the answer as to it being right or wrong in the eyes of God. That is a subject I would argue about, but I don't care if I am taken into the clouds before the tribulation or if I have to live thru it and suffer because I am not willing to accept the mark of the beast. Yes, it would make life more simple to not be here for it, but deep down I am content with whatever God chooses for me.

The closest time in the past that I can think of that would be something close to the tribulation would have been Noah. God could have raptured him and the animals and then put them back after the flood but he did not. Even thu Noah was saved he was still there for the flood, he had to go thu the entire flood, he was not along side teh sinners floating around in the water but he was not taken to a nice warn dry place in heaven eather. It would not have been roses, it would have been cold, wet, stinky, imagine all that water that flooded all the land, the waves would have been insane. There would have been little food and water I imagine. It would not have been the cute little childrens story book pictures of Noah and the animals floating around on a big boat all with smiles on thier faces.

I know why no one can answer why we as an entire world of Christians are so worthy of not being on earth for when the tribulation comes... because there has never been a time when God has removed all Christians from facing challenges, persecution or even death. And I am not talking about his wrath, I am talking about the worldly "suck" of evil. Don't believe it? As I said before start reading the world Christian news and tell the Christians in other countries who right now as I type this are being raped beaten and murdered because they will not turn from the Lord. Tell them God will float us away on a nice puffy cloud so no harm will ever come to us during the tribulation, tell them God would never let the anti-Christ send people out to slay us because we refuse to deny Christ. Ask them their thoughts on the "puffy fluffy float out of harms way on a cloud" theory and see what they have to say about it. The Christians who tend to believe in pre-trib are the ones who wake up every morning in their nice cozzy warm beds to the smell of freshly ground java in their over priced coffee machines and go to bed at night without even a scratch on them, and they believe it is because God keeps all harm away from people. Life is not always a bed of roses for every Christian.

I respect your belief in pre-trib and I am not saying your wrong. I just don't believe it myself, but I am not willing to say I am 100% certain because I can say 100% no one knows for sure.

 

[BeeWrangler]

Hello Beewrangler, a couple of things to consider:

First, before the Cross of Christ there were no "Christians," only those that had a general faith in God without the benefit of the revelation of the mystery of Christ which leads men to place their faith specifically in the Person of Jesus Christ and His death in the place of sinful man. Paul makes this clear, I believe, here:


1 Corinthians 2:5-10

King James Version (KJV)


5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Many take the quotation (Isaiah 64:4) to refer to Heaven, when in fact it is a reference to the mystery of Christ. If the princes of this world understood this mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord. Had Satan known it, he would have assigned bodyguards and would have surely led the detail.

Secondly, we do see an "easy way out" even in the Tribulation itself:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)


1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.




John goes on to record...


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


This would, I would think, negate the argument that "God does not give an easy way out" from the Tribulation. The 3 1/2 years of protection afforded to the Woman (Israel, from which the Child, Christ, came from) keep her safe from the efforts of Satan. It is my belief that this particular 3 1/2 years is the last half of the Tribulation.

It is when we go through the objections presented by others that we are able to test the foundation we base our views on, and it is a great way to eliminate certain objections.

The Tribulation is said by the Lord to...


Matthew 24:37

King James Version (KJV)


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


One of the aspects of the judgment in the days of Noah is that it was...complete. All of the wicked were eradicated from the face of the earth in that judgment. In Sodom, only those considered righteous (2 Peter 2:7) escaped judgment, and this because they were taken out, not through. It could be said that Noah as well was taken out of the flood, as he did not go into the medium of judgment for that time, but, I am willing to cede that from one perspective he went "through it."

Hope that helps.

God bless.

Has anyone ever told you that your very calming?

 

[BeeWrangler]

What it comes down to is I really want to believe there will be a pre-tribulation, but I don't want to not be prepared for the tribulation if it is post-trib. It is not a "worry" or stress, it is being prepared because I can listen to both sides of pre and post trib followers and if I listened without question or my own thoughts I could be very convinced by ether debate. That right there tells me know one knows for sure.

 

[AmyNMoore]

aman