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The origin of Rapture Doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by JM, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. JM

    JM Predestinarian

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    The subject of the rapture has come up a few times recently so I thought I would post a few links about it.

    These are polemics against the teaching of a Dispensational Pretrib Rapture.

    Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

    Eschatology Index at Reformed.org

    Is the Pretribulation Rapture Theory Biblical?

    The Premillennial Error

    The Rapture (5 part series)


    Have a good night folks, unsubscribing.

    jm
     
    Striver likes this.
  2. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Sadly, many Christians would rather learn their eschatology from the Left Behind series, than scholarly studies and exegesis of the Bible.
     
  3. AndOne

    AndOne Formerly known as Behe's Boy

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    Loved those books - but for what they were: fiction and nothing more....
     
  4. jehoiakim

    jehoiakim Servant

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    yeppers, it is refreshing to see how many people have started to wake up to this. It is still frustrating however to actually have people question your faith when you doubt in the "secret pre-trib rapture theory"
     
  5. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Unsubscribing?

    Okay, but thanks for the material. If at any time you wish to discuss this from scripture rather than offering copy and paste I will gladly look forward to it.

    Probably the first issue to examine will be the position of the amillennialist itself, which overlooks the prophecy of scripture itself, which is a spiritualization of scripture that in my view leaves much from the table of study. It is no wonder this view has been so popular.

    It should not fail our notice that those that oppose the pre-trib view usually to a man always resort to casting into doubt the salvation of those that embrace a pre-trib view.

    Lastly (for now, as I am on a trip and responding from my phone (which is tortuous, lol)), let us consider the appeal to the historical view as being the correct one: does this not fly in the face of reformation theology? And if we consider the similarities we can find between Catholic and Protestant theology and practice would we not find they are far closer than those between the various groups which embrace a pre-trib view?

    Think about that before offering a hasty response.

    I have read the first of these links and have found it to be a poor opposition to the pre-trib view, mixing false information with true, and making the very mistake that the Reformers sought to correct, which... Reading scripture for ourselves rather than appealing to what men say. Because what men say will hold error, as seen in the link.

    But God's word can be trusted.

    So, brother JM, can you show from scripture itself, apart from your links, why we doubt the promises of God as found in His word.

    If Church Tradition is so trustworthy...why is it the dating of Revelation after AD70 is rejected? Your entire theology stands or falls on that one issue.

    Okay, thanks for the thread and the material. I will not in this thread seek your approval to respond, for this thread indicates you question the salvation of those that embrace a pre-trib view and actually charge them with embracing and teaching demon doctrine.

    For shame, brother.

    To date you are the first a millennialist I have run across to do this. So far it has only been those holding a post-trib view. But, as I said in the other thread, this issue reaches into areas of Theology which will cause us to do more than scratch the surface of the word of God, and while most may not change their view (at least not publicly)...they will be forced to examine the basis of their belief, and will not walk away without having learned something.

    Unless they just walk away, that is.

    So if you are up to talking about the issue, as well as the false charges made in at least the first link (and we know that if part is false this disqualifies the teacher as it did the Prophet), then I will see you in few days.

    Sorry for having to do this from my phone, lol.

    God bless.
     
  6. jakael02

    jakael02 Newbie

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    Pilgrim - when do you think Revelation was written? Prior to or after fall of Jerusalem?

    Thanks - James
     
  7. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello James. While just as certain other issues it is hard to be dogmatic because we are not firsthand witnesses, I believe Revelation was written afterward.

    A couple things to consider would be 1) if it predates AD70 we have the problem that the prophecy of Revelation...is wrong as the events do not correlate as our a millennial brethren insist; 2) according to Revelation 20 we would have expected the Eternal State shortly after about 1170 AD as we would also expect the prophecy to follow a similar fulfillment; 3) is it not held in tradition it was written AD91-96?

    Where do you stand on this?

    God bless.
     
  8. jakael02

    jakael02 Newbie

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    Hey Pilgrim,

    I am not a expert here. I believe the majority of scholars date it in the mid-90's AD while the minority date it prior to late 60's.

    With regards to pre, post, mid... I'm not qualified to have a meaningful opinion here.

    Thanks again! James
     
  9. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    There is no way I could type more than lol or ttyl from a phone :D I hope your having a good trip P1LGR1M.



    I simply believe there is no pre-trib rapture because to me it sounds very clear:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    (For me this one verse says it all. We which are alive and remain... sounds to me like there will be more dead then alive. If it is before the tribulation why would so many Christians be dead? If it is after the tribulation which is after the anti-Christ has come then I could see why so many Christians would be dead, he would be having us killed)



    1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

    But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


    The "day of the Lord" ....


    Joel 2:31


    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come


    The day of the Lord is the "rapture" and the sun does not turn into darkness and the moon does not turn into blood before the tribulation. The start of the tribulation is when the abomination from the anti-Christ (personally I think that will be him sitting in the thrown of the new temple)


    Isaiah 13:9-10

    Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


    ^Same as above




    Matthew 24:29

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken


    It says immediately after the tribulation, not before.





    1 Thessalonians 4:16

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first




    Matthew 24:30

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory




    ^If all the tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus comming, and the dead are raised up and then us.... why would the tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus if they are convinced that the anti-Christ is Jesus?? I think we can all agree that the temple plays a big roll in the tribulation. The anti-Christ will have to convince the Jewish people that he is the messiah, and to do that he will have to be Jewish. If he does not convince them he is the messiah then they will not let him in the temple. When he sits in the thrown that is the abomination that starts the tribulation. Now if he has the Jewish people convinced he is the Messiah I assume he will have most nations convinced of the same, for him to be able to have a peace treaty signed. So if all or most of the nations or "tribes" think he is the messiah then why would they "mourn" the coming of Jesus... infact for it to be pre-trib Jesus would have to come before the anti-Christ or at least before the abomination of the anti-Christ. So how would they go from being in awe seeing Jesus coming in on clouds, having all the dead rise up and then having all the Christians rise up in the air... then to have the anti-Christ come and say "here I am, your messiah"... it makes no sense at all, no one could be that dumb.


    I am not able to find the word "rapture" anywhere in the bible, so I can only assume the "rapture" is the day of the Lord as this is when he comes, and I can only find where he comes once, not twice (before the trib and then again after that)





    I am still reading into everything and to be honest I wish it was pre-trib. I would rather not be around for what is to come, not to mention the faster I am off this earth and with the Lord the happier I will be. But I don't think it will be that easy... most things in leading a Christian life is not easy... infact I can't think of one bible story where someone had the easy way out, so why would the tribulation have an easy exit?
     
  10. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello James, it is my understanding also that Revelation is generally accepted as having been written in the last decade. And I am with you...not an expert, lol.

    God bless.
     
  11. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello BeeWrangler, thanks for the response and I hope you will be patient for a proper response when I get back. And it has been very restful, thanks.

    In the meantime I will suggest a few things to consider which are relevant to your post. I would suggest looking at the "Day of the Lord" (word search "Day of the Lord" on Strong's online concordance) as I would suggest that this speaks of judgment, rather than the Rapture (which word, while not found in the Greek has its roots in Latin which is why it is the common word used to describe this event. In 1st Thessalonians 5 we see we will not be overtaken or caught unawares by this Day (vv. 4-5). Those who are subject to this judgment will be.

    Another point of consideration is the it is the "dead in Christ" in view in ch. 4, and specifically those known to the Thessalonians rather than the dead in general. I am assuming you are premillennial I your views so the one question to answer is "If all believers are resurrected at the Second Coming (see Zechariah 14)...who populates the Millennial Kingdom promised in the Old Testament and the New? (see Acts 1 and Revelation 20)"

    Theord taught that in the Tribulation "one is taken and the other left," and when we look at numerous passages we see that those "taken"are taken in judgment (Revelation 19:19-21; Luke 17:20-37; Matthew 24:36-44. Also: Ezekial 39:1-8 & 17-20; Isaiah 18 & 56:9) I will try to get more detailed when I get back but we see in the "Supper of the Great God" two important things: 1) the correlation of death for the wicked in every occurrence of the "day of the Lord"; 2) that we can see prophecy speak of near fulfillment as well as future, such as we see in the Coming of Christ. The day of the Lord has occurred in the past and it will also have a future fulfillment in the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation (as well as during) those "taken" will die. Those that remain (who endure this period) are those that populate the Millennial Kingdom.

    Now if the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, all believers are glorified, meaning that there are only glorified believers left, which does not correspond to such prophecies such as Isaiah 65:20-22, where long life suggests Kingdom dwellers are not yet glorified but still have physical bodies.

    Okay, think that's it for now. I cannot post the scripture on my phone and I prefer to do so because few will take the time to look at the references. But I ask you to do so, BeeWrangler, because it is going to be by taking into consideration a number of Old Testament passages and prophecies and comparing it with the prophecy taught by Christ, Paul, Peter, and John that you will do justice to the issue. The pre-trib view is far more complicated than it seems at first glance, and there is far more to consider than a few New Testament verses.

    But take a look at the cross references provided, and I look forward to this discussion. While I have friends that take both a post-trib as well as an a millennial view and understand why they take that view, and accept them as brothers in Christ, one of my goals with this discussion is to point out that there is a reasonable basis, really, to most of these views, and if we examine the basis in earnest, we will better learn to communicate with each other.

    My hope in a pre-trib rapture has come about through study, and when I get the chance I test that position by discussing it with those with opposing views. This is usually with those of the post-trib view, and to date Progressive Dispensationalists have presented the best defense. So in other words, my friend, nobody tests my position harder than I do myself, and giving the fact I am aware of my own potential for error, I have to see my view as one I have arrived at and only the word of God can bring anyone to reasonable conclusion. I became aware at some point that much of what I believed was more due to reliance on what I had been taught by the fellowships I was involved with rather study itself. We all are in danger of making conclusions and then seeking to prove them through scripture. Our duty, though, is to study first...and then come to conclusion, being led of God. So before concluding the pre-trib view is without merit, first consider the basis for that view and as I said before, it will at the least bring exposure to the teaching found in the prophecy of the Old Testament, which holds the foundation of the teaching of Christ.

    God bless.
     
  12. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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  13. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    Theord taught that in the Tribulation "one is taken and the other left," and when we look at numerous passages we see that those "taken"are taken in judgment (Revelation 19:19-21; Luke 17:20-37; Matthew 24:36-44. Also: Ezekial 39:1-8 & 17-20; Isaiah 18 & 56:9) I will try to get more detailed when I get back but we see in the "Supper of the Great God" two important things: 1) the correlation of death for the wicked in every occurrence of the "day of the Lord"; 2) that we can see prophecy speak of near fulfillment as well as future, such as we see in the Coming of Christ. The day of the Lord has occurred in the past and it will also have a future fulfillment in the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation (as well as during) those "taken" will die. Those that remain (who endure this period) are those that populate the Millennial Kingdom.


    Revelation 19:19-21


    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.





    Luke 17:20-37



    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    32 Remember Lot's wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


    Matthew 24:36-44



    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



    Ezekial 39:1-8




    39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
    6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.
    7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
    8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.




    17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
    18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
    19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
    20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.









    Isaiah 18


    18 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:
    2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!
    3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
    4 For so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
    5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.
    6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
    7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion.


    Isaiah 56:9


    9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest


    Again, I will have to get back to this.









    Now if the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation, all believers are glorified, meaning that there are only glorified believers left, which does not correspond to such prophecies such as Isaiah 65:20-22, where long life suggests Kingdom dwellers are not yet glorified but still have physical bodies.

    Okay, think that's it for now. I cannot post the scripture on my phone and I prefer to do so because few will take the time to look at the references. But I ask you to do so, BeeWrangler, because it is going to be by taking into consideration a number of Old Testament passages and prophecies and comparing it with the prophecy taught by Christ, Paul, Peter, and John that you will do justice to the issue. The pre-trib view is far more complicated than it seems at first glance, and there is far more to consider than a few New Testament verses.

    But take a look at the cross references provided, and I look forward to this discussion. While I have friends that take both a post-trib as well as an a millennial view and understand why they take that view, and accept them as brothers in Christ, one of my goals with this discussion is to point out that there is a reasonable basis, really, to most of these views, and if we examine the basis in earnest, we will better learn to communicate with each other.

    My hope in a pre-trib rapture has come about through study, and when I get the chance I test that position by discussing it with those with opposing views. This is usually with those of the post-trib view, and to date Progressive Dispensationalists have presented the best defense. So in other words, my friend, nobody tests my position harder than I do myself, and giving the fact I am aware of my own potential for error, I have to see my view as one I have arrived at and only the word of God can bring anyone to reasonable conclusion. I became aware at some point that much of what I believed was more due to reliance on what I had been taught by the fellowships I was involved with rather study itself. We all are in danger of making conclusions and then seeking to prove them through scripture. Our duty, though, is to study first...and then come to conclusion, being led of God. So before concluding the pre-trib view is without merit, first consider the basis for that view and as I said before, it will at the least bring exposure to the teaching found in the prophecy of the Old Testament, which holds the foundation of the teaching of Christ.

    God bless.[/quote]


    Well, I have been reading, thinking, drinking tea, praying and reading some more lol. I have been at it for over 4 hours now... time to call it a night for me. One thing I have learned, there is no easy answer to this discussion. I look forward to getting back at it tomorrow.

    God bless
     
  14. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Four hours...see how getting in there leads to intense study? That is excellent, BeeWrngler, and it is always a joy to see people get involved in study.

    Okay, just a few things to consider concerning this last post:

    You are correct that 1st Thessalonians 5 refers to the Day of the Lord, however, we keep in mind 1st Thessaloians 4 where Paul does not want them to be "ignorant concerning those that have fallen asleep," or, have died. Many see that the Thessalonians are worried that those who have died will miss the Lord' return, hence the teaching concerning the Rapture (properly, the "catching away") which immediately follows.

    In describing this resurrection we are told we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, whereas in Matthew 24 Angels are said to gather the elect. In 2nd Thessalonians we see the Thessalonians are comforted concerning "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him," where, having been taught of our being caught up to Him, they are worried they have missed it.

    Paul says basically, "You know you haven't missed it because what follows the rapture is the appearing of the man of sin...and has not happened yet, and cannot happen until He Who restrains is taken out of the way."

    Many see that it is our gathering unto Him which cannot take place before the appearing of Antichrist but I view it as the judgment of ch.1 is in view, not the catching away of those in Christ. Paul makes the point that if the gathering had already taken place then what he had already taught them would have followed also, namely the Restrainer being taken out of the way and the appearing of the man of sin.

    So we see twice Paul comforting them concerning the catching away, first teaching of the rapture to comfort them concerning those that have died, then comforting them that fear, because of the tribulation they are experiencing, that the Tribulation events have begun.

    Now what teaching would they have concerning the Tribulation where they would expect the Antichrist? The prophecy taught both by Christ and the Old Testament. Christ implies in Matthew 24 that the prophecy of Daniel still had a day of fulfillment in the future (Matthew 24:15). Daniel saw a fulfillment concerning Antichrist in Antiochus Epiphanes, however, Christ taught there was yet a future time of fulfillment. We could see fulfillment also in the events of the first century but Revelation should show that we can't see the prophecy fulfilled as described there. Christ, for example, did not return.

    The primary point I began to make is this: believers are not all kept through the Tribulation...many will die. This is where those raised in Revelation 20 come from. Paul cannot comfort by denying this fact, but it is a comfort if we are caught up before these events. We have been saved from the wrath to come, not tribulation in general, as the Lord said while we are in this world we will suffer tribulation, but the specific wrath of God in the Tribulation, as well as eternal wrath/judgment.

    And unfortunately, trying to do this on my phone prevents me in a number of ways, so I will try to refocus on what we were discussing concerning the "supper of the Great God:"

    The events spoken of in the Old Testament were not taken out of play, such as Zechariah 14, for example, for the Angels said on the Day of Ascension "He will come in like manner (Acts 1:9-11). The events of the Tribulation found in Revelation may expand what is known about the Day of the Lord (which describes events which have seen fulfillment in the history of Israel being visited by God in judgment), but does not cancel out the prophecy of the Old Testament. God spoke of the death of those that will die, and we see both in the prophecy of the Old and New Testaments that birds and beasts will feast on the dead (who are they which He said would be taken).

    Now, take a look at Ezekial 39, where the deaths of those that oppose God also have a period of seven years (in view is destroying their weaponry: vv. 9-10) and also seven months (vv.11-16, where the land is cleansed of the bodies of those slain). Few give thought to not just the death toll described in the Tribulation as well as what becomes of those that die. Denial of a literal earthly kingdom as described in Old and New Testament prophecy fails to deal with specific passages such as this. Both the seven year and seven month periods show the Eternal State does not follow the Day of the Lord, but that there will be a continuing existence here on this earth after the Tribulation.

    One of the charges made in the first link given by the OP is that we believe the Lord had to "change His plans," basically, however, I see that the Lord has maintained the same redemptive plan and events though He has progressively revealed more about it, just as He did concerning Messiah.

    Okay, hope that helps expand consideration of Tribulation events.

    God bless.
     
  15. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    I have not had the time I hoped for the past couple days to study/respond. But I did study a little on your question

    "I am assuming you are premillennial I your views so the one question to answer is "If all believers are resurrected at the Second Coming (see )...who populates the Millennial Kingdom promised in the Old Testament and the New? (see Acts 1 and Revelation 20)"

    I'm not sure I understand, if the rapture is pre-trib and going by the "one taken and one left" that would mean (if I understand right) that all the people who think they are going to be raptured before the trib are going to be in shock when only half of them are raptured. My take on the "one taken and one left" was the sinner with the mark of the beast would be taken (with the antichrist ect) and the other (who did not recv the mark) would be left. I still believe from what I see the rapture will take place when Jesus comes in the louds, and he will desend to destroy the antichrist and all who accepted the mark of the beast. But the more I think about it the more I feel there will be people who do not accept the mark and they will bow to Jesus when they see him and realize he is the Lord God... and because at that moment they give themselves to him he will spare them... and they will populate the millennial kingdom. Again, I am still studying it but it makes sense to me. When Jesus was on the cross and the guy on the cross beside him realized Jesus really was the king of kings, Jesus forgave him and told him there would be a place in heaven for him. So would it not make sense that there could be people at the last minute give themselves to Jesus when they see him and see he is the Lord God? The rapture would have already taken place so they would populate the millennial kingdom... possibly.

    But I still don't understand why all pre-trib believers are convinced they will be raptured before the tribulation if they also believe only half of them will be raptured? Does that not mean it will be a 50/50 chance that they (as an individual) are raptured before the tribulation?
     
  16. joseph10

    joseph10 Newbie

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    I wanted to share from my personnel testimony about the rapture. When i was first came back to the Lord after many years of being away from him. In 1997 i think October i had work 20 hours that day. Long day came home and then read 7 chapters of the bible and was watching deserts bloom on the wildlife channel. Had just read about that in the prophets. The prophets were saying in that day the deserts would bloom.
    I went before the Lord on bent knee. And ask him how close we were to the coming of the Lord Jesus. I said i know you can't tell me the day or the hour.
    Then in a second of time i was no longer in my body. I was in heaven looking toward the earth. The earth was shacking. And then i could see the saints of God coming from the face of the earth. They had spirit bodies. Human in shape but clear blue see through. With in each was two vanes of light one blue and one red. The vains of light ran up the legs to the torso up torso and also was in the arms. They stopped at the bottom of the head. Looked like were out blood vanes would be.
    As i was seeing this i had my hands clap togeither and could see through me arms.
    I also had the same king of body and the vanes of light. Then i ask Lord what is all this. IN a second i was back in my body.
    Then in a few seconds he took me across the whole bible. The rapture is very much real. He is the Father of Lights. The red is the Holy Spirit, The blue is the Spirit of the Living Waters ( Christ own spirit ). If you have the father you have the son.
    We are indeed the temple of God. A trinity made in his image. What is the image of the trinity. Father, Son ( flesh ) and Holy Spirit. We have flesh, the Holy Spirit and Christ.
    And i was speaking in other languages in heaven this was years before i spoke in other languages.
    And we go mid trip Daniel declared it. The 42 months of Daniel which time period we are in. God bless.
     
  17. joseph10

    joseph10 Newbie

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    God wanted me to add something. I think that why God has shown me this is because i know something about engineering, light and computers. In revelation when we are warned not to take the mark of the beast. If you study this you will find that he is speaking to the believers of Christ. So why this warning. Well what the mark of the beast does is perverts the light of God in you. When Christ come for you. If you spirit is not purely as his you can't be raptured. Some how the mark of the beast defiles the light of God in you. You are a part of his body. All parts of his body have to have the same make up in the lights i saw.
    God had me to add that.
     
  18. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    Thank you for sharing that Joseph, That is really amazing!
    God bless
     
  19. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    While there may be speculation as to whether we could see born again believers "left behind," I find no scriptural evidence apart from applying the Lord's warnings to make sure one is ready, and those warnings I believe speak to those (the generation) that find themselves in the events which He describes.

    Both the Lord and Paul imply that there is a 100% division between believers and unbelievers. I believe we see a fifty/fifty ratio in the Parable of the Ten Virgins, for instance, but this would speak of those that belong to Israel, in my view. When we see a general teaching concerning the word of God going out, such as in the Parable of the Soils, we see a one quarter division which, concerning salvation, aligns with the Lord's teaching of the many and the few, and when we combine this with the Parable of the Tares, as well as numerous teachings which show that among true believers there will be merely professing believers, we can distinguish between what is in view.

    But when we get specific teaching concerning the Tribulation, and we look at "those taken and those left," those taken are without doubt unbelievers, and the Lord makes it clear...they die:


    Luke 17:22-37

    King James Version (KJV)


    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


    "One of the days of the Son of Man" speaks, I believe, prophetically of the Lord's return to Heaven. Do we not ourselves wish that He was here, that we could sit at His feet and be taught of the Master? So too with those of Israel, and among the disciples that did sit at His feet, they yearned for those days.

    His warning is there will be those that like the woman at the well, would "come into town" and say, "Here is Christ." There have been multitudes that have said "I am Christ," "I am one of the Witnesses," et cetera, and Christ says..."Don't believe them."

    Why? Because when Christ does come, there will be no mistaking it. In the Tribulation men will repent like Judas, and call for the mountains to hide them, even as Adam hid from God, rather than go to Him.

    When Christ returns, there will be no mistake for believers. They will know. And there will be among those that go through the Tribulation that die, as evidenced by this:


    Revelation 20

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



    A couple things to consider here would be that the term "beheaded does not have to refer only to decapitation, but can be viewed as a general term for death. Another would be that the mark of the beast could refer to not just a physical mark (though I lean heavily toward there being a specific "seal" which worshippers of Antichrist receive for identification) but to the mindset and will (on/in the forhead) and actions (on/in their hands) of those that worship the beast.

    But more importantly we see only Tribulation Martyrs said to be resurrected, the "dead" are said not to be resurrected until the thousand years are up:


    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    When we consider what "the First Resurrection" means, it is typically taken to mean the "first in a series of events," and while protos can mean this, we have only to consider the resurrection of those raised by Prophets, Apostles, and Christ, the resurrection of Christ, and the resurrection of the Two Witnesses to question if "first in a series of events" is in view here, or whether it refers to something that is Chief, such as protos is used in regards to the Priests (as well as the "chief" of the city), the "best robe," and those that would be "first" among us.

    Scripture consistently teaches two "types" of resurrection, one unto salvation and one unto damnation.

    If you go here, you can type in "first resurrection and then click on the number beside "first" to see how it is used in scripture. It is a good study.


    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.


    Before His return, that is.


    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


    One thing true of both of these judgments is that destruction for the wicked was...complete. Only those that God intends to live through this judgment will live, and this is what is inferred in the teachings concerning this judgment.

    Warnings to those that go through these events:


    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    32 Remember Lot's wife.


    Run for your life! Don't look back.


    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


    I think the Lord is referring to more than just physical life here, but has in view also the daily conversation of the individual. He has just said "Flee and don't look back," so in view here is likely preservation of one's "life" in regards to daily living. Physical life is in view as well, however, those that will seek to carry on with daily routine will die, while those that take flight, which means abandoning what their daily life entails...will preserve their "life."


    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    A pretribulational view is often, by it's opponents, said to lull those that embrace it into a lethargy, where when the Tribulation occurs...they will be "shocked" to find themselves in the Tribulation. Quite the opposite: only a pretribulational view instills in the believer the Imminent Return of Christ and the necessity of holy living before God, our need to be busy about the work of preaching the Gospel, and the shortness of time in which we can be of service toward eternal efforts.

    While my post-tribulational brothers also have those same compassions, the Preterist and Amillennial view, because they feel that prophecy has (in varying levels among them) been fulfilled, do not have those same compulsions or motivations. This is not to say that among them there are no evangelical efforts, this would be unfair, as I believe many among them have been gifted for such efforts and respond positively to the leading of the Holy Spirit in seeking to lead the lost to Christ.

    But, those among the pretribulational view, above all, see the Imminent Return of Christ as motivation to live holy before God and to seek to lead the lost to Christ, because most of us take the view that when the Rapture occurs, there will be a significant change in how the Lord ministers among men. Those that have openly rejected Christ will suffer great delusion from God and fall prey to Antichrist.

    And sorry if this gets long, BeeWrangler, but I have been champing at the bit for almost a week now, lol. It is good to be back in the saddle, so to speak.

    Continued...
     
  20. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    And this I believe to be correct.

    Some have mistakenly applied this teaching as those taken being raptured, but judgment is in view.

    Both parties are alive, those taken die in judgment, while those that live go on to inhabit the Millennial Kingdom. So when we consider those that populate the Millennial Kingdom, we have to consider how, if the rapture (which is a resurrection of both living and dead saints) takes place at the end...there are no physical people to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

    At least some among Progressive Dispensationalists have taken the view that the Tribulation, rather than being a worldwide event, is localized to the Middle East. While I can understand how this position helps to reconcile some issues, it also raises issues which I do not believe can be reconciled. The thing to keep in ind, though, as we seek to make conclusions about what scripture teaches is...because they take a different view does not mean they are our enemies. They are still brothers in Christ, no matter the view (and I am speaking about timing of the Rapture, not to be confused with an ecumenical view that teaches "it doesn't matter in all doctrines," because there are core issues which can lead me to separate myself from certain and question heavily their doctrine, such as in areas soteriological. Such as a diminutive view of Christ or adding to the work of Christ by demanding works inorder to be saved, as many which we conclude to be cults do).

    So, if we take a position that the Tribulation is secluded in the Middle-East and that only the countries named in scripture take part, then we can answer the question with "There will be a multitude of people to populate the Kingdom," so we have to answer from scripture whether the judgment of the Tribulation is localized or if it is global. This is a great study as well. I have concluded at this point that the Tribulation will be worldwide, and that it will leave only believers to enter into the Kingdom.

    Here is the Return of Christ described:

    Revelation 19:11-21

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    In ch.20 we see the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs. Those that die are not resurrected until the thousand years expire.

    It is my view that all uinbelievers, those that fall under great delusion that they might believe the lie/s of Antichrist are clearly killed.

    In Luke 21 we see another description of the Tribulation. Among those that die in the Tribulation will be those that come to belief, and there is the implication that the actions they take may play a part in whether they survive or not:


    Luke 21:36

    King James Version (KJV)


    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.



    In other words, there is the possibility that among believers there will be those that will not escape death because they do not heed the Lord's teaching concerning this time. Those that "stand before the Son of Man" are those that live through this time.

    Now notice something interesting in this chapter:


    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    As the Mystery of the Church unfolds, we are told that God has made "one man" which includes both the Jew and the Gentile, and we understand that in the Church we are no more considered Jew or Gentile, but one in Christ. However, in the Tribulation there is a return to separation of men in regards of Jew and Gentile:


    Revelation 11

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.



    The Gentiles, in the time of the Tribulation, will tread under foot the Holy City for three and a half years. These are clearly not Jews, clearly not the Church, and it is reasonable, because we do not once see the Church mentioned as participants in this period, to conclude that in the Tribulation, there is a reversion to how men were separated before the Church is established.

    One verse that indicates that the Church will not be here is found here:


    Revelation 3:10

    King James Version (KJV)


    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



    One thing I believe many err in is to assume that everyone in the Seven Churches is saved. Each Church is called to "overcome," and I do not think it is coincidence that John gives a definition for "overcoming" here:


    1 John 5:1-5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



    Because of my strong belief that the word of God is harmonious throughout, I view the exhortation to overcome to be a call for salvation. Every Sunday preachers preach to their congregation with a knowledge that it is likely that among the congregation are those that, though they come regularly, are not saved, but participants in Churchianity, rather than Christianity.

    But let's look at 3:10 again:


    Revelation 3:10

    King James Version (KJV)



    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



    As I said, I believe the Tribulation will be a global event, and in this time God will throughly purge the world and establish His Kingdom, promised to the Jews, and to date not fulfilled. While we could see a "keeping through this hour of testing," which will be true to the extent that Christ taught there would be those found worthy to escape (and which are seen in Revelation 12 which refers to those among Israel and twice it is said they find shelter for the space of 3 1/2 years (12:6 & 14)), it is also true, based on a few passages in Revelation, that there will be those among believers that will die. These are seen raised again in Revelation 20.

    Continued...
     
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