The only real eschatology question

Interplanner

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The only real division about eschatology is not futurism vs preterism. It is whether Mt 24B allowed for a distant future return. If modern believers would see that it did, they wouldn't read the materials (24A and B) as though they were 2000+ year old predictions of exact modern middle east events. Allowed is the key word. The final return could have happened right after the horrendous events of the 60s in Judea, but the Father delayed. It is when we don't allow what 24B allowed that there is misunderstanding.

Otherwise there are two miscommunicating groups:
1, which says everything in A&B happened back then
2, nothing happened back then

Neither of those are satisfactory.
 

Psalm 91

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The only real division about eschatology is not futurism vs preterism. It is whether Mt 24B allowed for a distant future return. If modern believers would see that it did, they wouldn't read the materials (24A and B) as though they were 2000+ year old predictions of exact modern middle east events. Allowed is the key word. The final return could have happened right after the horrendous events of the 60s in Judea, but the Father delayed. It is when we don't allow what 24B allowed that there is misunderstanding.

Otherwise there are two miscommunicating groups:
1, which says everything in A&B happened back then
2, nothing happened back then

Neither of those are satisfactory.


Nah, nothing prophecy-wise happened back then. The Holocaust was just as bad if not worse and it is not in Scripture. The Apostles were asking Jesus what would be the signs of the end, and of His coming. 70AD was not a worldwide event and Jesus did not return. The end of days will be a worldwide event and everyone will see Jesus' Second Coming. The final battle may occur only in Israel but the Tribulation and God's Wrath will occur everywhere.
 
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Interplanner

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Actually Dan 9 did take place and on time. many, many times in the Gospels, 'ges' (land, earth) does not mean the planet, or dirt, but Israel. So Mt 24A, which is full of Judea/Jerusalem/temple settings is about things there. After v29 it speaks of the whole earth (the 4 winds from every corner). It was the worst event for Israel to that date because of their level of accountability.

As for the "end" the end of what? Judaism? The 490 / 70 7s? End of the world? "End of the age" was there associated with the temple being demolished, which meant the end of Judaism as they knew it. That is the plain meaning of the opening questions.

You're right, jesus did not return; but it was expected, and could have been. The later verses (only the Father knows) and 2 Pet 3 explain that the Father will make that call.

Yes, the final judgement will be global, but there are no Judaic/Israel-based events necessary for it to happen. I have no idea why people think they have proved something about God's day of justice because they find a reference to the desert of Arabia being incinerated. The whole earth will be. We don't "need" particular, regional, examples of that to know it is true, and the day of judgement will not just happen to one geographic locale.
 
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Bar Melek

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Some of Yahshua's prophecies in Matthew 24 were indeed fulfilled in the first century A.D., but not all. For example, the early Christians were persecuted and put to death, the Romans fought a war with the Jews, laid siege to Jerusalem and eventually aided the destruction of the Second/Third Temple (Herod had largely rebuilt the Second Temple and beautified it, and the Jews had a hand in destroying it themselves) and the abomination of desolation was in the holy place. The image of the beast and the abomination of desolation are not the same thing. But Yahshua Christ is not here among us, nor is the Kingdom of God yet fully established on earth. Satan is not in the Bottomless Pit or the Lake of Fire. Thus there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled, regardless of someone's personal interpretation of the seals, trumpets, and bowls/vials.
 
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Biblewriter

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The only way to even pretend this is correct is to ignore almost all of the Old Testament prophecies about the futures of Judah and of Israel, and then to wrest the New Testament prophecies.
 
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Bar Melek

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The Temple of God won't be destroyed again by man. The Temple of God is now the Church, true believers and followers of Yahshua Christ, individually and corporately. We may be killed, we may die, but we'll never be destroyed. Every single time Paul mentions the Temple of God, (except for one time when he was using the priests serving in the physical temple for an example, though he didn't call it the Temple of God in that instance), he is referring to Christians. I doubt that Yahweh God will allow another physical temple to be rebuilt. Reinstating animal sacrifices would be absolute blasphemy, spitting in Yahshua's face. And the false Jews in the land of Israel know what would happen if they destroyed the Dome of the Rock. That would start World War with Islam.
 
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Interplanner

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Hi BW,
with 2500 uses of the OT by the NT not going that direction, I can't either. I just don't find a solid platform of using the OT that way. I wouldn't go that far in the future when the early community itself found the delay to be rather unexpected--the delay of the final judgement so far after the DofJ--as discussed by many early church historians like Schaff and Latourrette.

The use of Lk 21 and Rom 11 as 'openings' to the distant future seem extremely weak, but you are of course entitled to keep presenting why you find them strong.
 
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dfw69

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Back to the OP: did the NT allow for the final day of judgement to be distant future, while expecting it to be right after the DofJ?

What happened to the return of Christ immediately after the aod of 70 ad?
 
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Bar Melek

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BarMelek,
do you think Paul was refering to the actual standing temple of Judaism when he wrote the Thess letters in the late 40s?

No. The Temple of God on earth is now, and was in Paul's day, true Christians, individually and corporately.

KJV Search Results for "temple of God"

KJV Search Results for "temple"

And Judaism didn't quite exist yet. Talmud-based Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament Israelites. It is the misbegotten, anti-christ child of the Pharisees, the tradition of the elders which Yahshua denounced. The Talmud is the written, codified oral law and commentaries by various rabbis elevated to the position of sacred scripture. Especially by the Orthodox 'Jews'.
 
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Bar Melek

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Oh, and the Anti-Christ is not found in Daniel chapter 9. That's all about Yahshua. Martin Luther agrees. I have a Note on Facebook called The Tribulation which explains this. "The prince that shall come" is nowhere else used to describe the Anti-christ, so it's all a bunch of hocus-pocus trickery by Zionists and the so-called pastors and scholars they deceive or pay for.
 
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dfw69

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Hi, dfw,
I think we're just missing each other! 2 Pet 3 and Mt 24B are in great harmony: the Father has delayed the final day even though it was expected to be right after the DofJ.
I can't really go anywhere else with the materials.

That would make Jesus a liar wouldn't it?
 
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Bible2

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Bar Melek said in post 8:

The Temple of God is now the Church . . .

Amen.

But note that while the church is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

Bar Melek said in post 8:

I doubt that Yahweh God will allow another physical temple to be rebuilt.

Note that Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a physical temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Bar Melek said in post 8:

And the false Jews in the land of Israel know what would happen if they destroyed the Dome of the Rock. That would start World War with Islam.

That's right, insofar as one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.
 
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Interplanner

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B2, God isn't interested in co-existing temples. The Lamb is the temple. He said something greater than the temple was now here in his arrival and ministry. You have a completely doctrinaire and elitist way of reading things. They did not speak, think or write like that in the dangerous, turbulent 1st century, got it?
 
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Biblewriter

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Back to the OP: did the NT allow for the final day of judgement to be distant future, while expecting it to be right after the DofJ?

You are reading words into the text that simply are not there. There is not even one scripture that even implies that the final day of judgment would be immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem. Again, you are ignoring that troublesome word "until."
 
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