The ONE LAW Movement

visionary

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What seems to be missing is the Jewish understanding that when Messiah comes he will make everything new and give a Torah that would far surpass and make vain the Torah we have now. It's just common Jewish Messianic thought. "The Torah which man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the teaching of the Messiah." Midrash Qoheleth

RaMBaM said "Torah which we now have was given to Moses" and "This Torah will not be changed nor will the Creator -- may he be blessed -- institute any other Torah". Yet he then states in "Ordinances of the Kings" that the King anointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments".

It's simply not a Jewish concept that the Torah given at Sinai is the Torah for all eternity. Judaism has always believed in a Messiah that would come and establish God's laws in person. The only group who demands that the Torah given at the mountain is the Torah Messiah also gives when he comes are one law. Jews know that the Torah given at Sinai was given because of a corrupt heart within the people. When Messiah comes he fixes that corruptness, thus making that Torah complete. What was given for our healing has brought healing to us, namely Messiah Yeshua. So to demand all must fall back under the surgeons knife after we are healed is very sinful, to me. Torah brings Yeshua, who bring the healing of the nations. Yeshua is the center of the universe, not the operation that reveals his coming. Torah is completely observed by knowing Yeshua personally. His instructions are given in real time within us now. In this way Yeshua=Torah, as he is revealing the will of God 'heart to heart', not scroll to heart. And Judaism has prophesied this for centuries. As proven by the quotes above.
Walking in Torah is making Torah complete. We do not have to walk on the edge of sin and sainthood when we can walk full in Torah. Yeshua said it wasn't a burden. In fact, He said that it is not only possible, via His Holy Spirit, but that it is what makes the saints. He will have one people, one nation out of all nations, in harmony with His Torah and following His example.

In the war between good and evil, God is out to prove that people can be good in the world of evil. Yeshua, via Holy Spirit, has given us all the equipment we need to imitate Him and prove to the world and universe that it can be done. We are the Job of our days and will sin not in spite of best shots Satan can throw at us. But we have to unite under His banner, His Kingdom, His Way, His Truth, like His Life, in His Spirit. It means not putting new wine in old wineskins. That means a lot of giving up of the things of this world to be liking proof that we are of His World.
Jhn 15:19

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
 
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Truthfrees

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What seems to be missing is the Jewish understanding that when Messiah comes he will make everything new and give a Torah that would far surpass and make vain the Torah we have now. It's just common Jewish Messianic thought. "The Torah which man learns in this world is but vanity compared with the teaching of the Messiah." Midrash Qoheleth
:wave:IMO, this supports ONE LAW: "The Torah which man learns" can be very different than "the Torah YHWH gave Moses".

IOW, what man is able to comprehend (learn), may be vastly inferior to what YHWH gave (means).

Messiah certainly does expound Torah in a way which makes man's learning appear as vanity (surface learning rather than deep understanding).

RaMBaM said "Torah which we now have was given to Moses" and "This Torah will not be changed nor will the Creator -- may he be blessed -- institute any other Torah". Yet he then states in "Ordinances of the Kings" that the King anointed as Messiah will "sit on his kingly throne and write for himself a Book of the Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" and "He will compel Israel to obey these commandments".

"A Book of Law in addition to the Law given to our Fathers" is still compatible with ONE LAW:
1. "Addition" doesn't mean substitution. IOW, Torah will remain, not pass away.
2. "Addition" is a good description of Messiah's Torah teachings recorded in the Gospels. Yeshua doesn't change any laws, He clarifies and reinforces Torah (makes stronger) with "additional" instruction.
3. "Additional" would have to be in agreement with what already exists.
4. "Additional" would be for the same purpose the Oral Law was given: to help believers understand and keep Torah better.

It's simply not a Jewish concept that the Torah given at Sinai is the Torah for all eternity. Judaism has always believed in a Messiah that would come and establish God's laws in person. The only group who demands that the Torah given at the mountain is the Torah Messiah also gives when he comes are one law. Jews know that the Torah given at Sinai was given because of a corrupt heart within the people. When Messiah comes he fixes that corruptness, thus making that Torah complete. What was given for our healing has brought healing to us, namely Messiah Yeshua. So to demand all must fall back under the surgeons knife after we are healed is very sinful, to me. Torah brings Yeshua, who bring the healing of the nations. Yeshua is the center of the universe, not the operation that reveals his coming. Torah is completely observed by knowing Yeshua personally. His instructions are given in real time within us now. In this way Yeshua=Torah, as he is revealing the will of God 'heart to heart', not scroll to heart. And Judaism has prophesied this for centuries. As proven by the quotes above.
"Establish God's laws in person" means ENFORCE, not replace.

Yeshua said heaven and earth would pass away before Torah passes away. Matthew 5:18

John tells us to keep His Commandments and walk as Yeshua walked. Did Yeshua keep Torah (aka His Commandments)?

"3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. " - 1 John 2:3-6

It's the Constantinian understanding that Yeshua changed the laws. There's no scripture saying Messiah will or has changed Torah.

:wave:
 
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Lulav

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Stuart Dauermann used to say to me, "How can it be Messianic Judaism without Jews?"
I'm a bit confused OH, I've seen you state that you were of various things which I am trying to put together, so far it's lead me to believe that you were

once Orthodox (Jewish) then moved to belief in Yeshua and were Messianic and then moved to Catholicism?

Have I got that correct?
 
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Open Heart

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I'm a bit confused OH, I've seen you state that you were of various things which I am trying to put together, so far it's lead me to believe that you were

once Orthodox (Jewish) then moved to belief in Yeshua and were Messianic and then moved to Catholicism?

Have I got that correct?
Raised Fundamentalist, converted to Catholicism, aposticized and explored Judaism for many years, mostly Orthodox, repented returned to Catholicism while attending various synagogues, MJ, Reform. I deeply regret ever having left Christ, but at the same time, I did learn so much about being a Jew. It really helped explain some of the Jewish habits my Oh So Christian family still had.
 
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Truthfrees

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When one defines themselves as 'a Judaism', they are in essence calling themselves Jewish. You can't separate Judaism from being Jewish, though I see you are trying real hard at it, it is impossible to do.
:oldthumbsup: Excellent point.

2 LAWS takes Judaism out of MJ and makes 2 people of GER and Jew. Yeshua wants us to be one flock. John 10:16

How can we be one in the way Yeshua says if there's 2 laws?
"20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." - John 17:23

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." - John 10:16

One flock with one shepherd can't have 2 laws. They're going to blend in together just as the GER blended into Israel in the Exodus.

It has to be one community with one set of rules for all to make us perfectly one (John 17:23).

Anything less than this would be imperfect.

:wave:
 
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aniello

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Raised Fundamentalist, converted to Catholicism, aposticized and explored Judaism for many years, mostly Orthodox, repented returned to Catholicism while attending various synagogues, MJ, Reform. I deeply regret ever having left Christ, but at the same time, I did learn so much about being a Jew. It really helped explain some of the Jewish habits my Oh So Christian family still had.

Hmmm. OK. Was your mother Jewish? Was your mother's mother Jewish? Just trying to get understanding.
 
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Truthfrees

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How does that support One Law?
:wave:IF the Midrash Qoheleth statement is interpreted as Torah changing, and this is used to support 2 LAWS, then proving Torah doesn't change would have to give support to ONE LAW.

Just using "reverse theology". :D
 
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Open Heart

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Hmmm. OK. Was your mother Jewish? Was your mother's mother Jewish? Just trying to get understanding.
You know, in Jewish society it is not permitted to ask if someone is born Jewish or a convert since there is no difference in status, but I'm sure you didn't know that, so I'll answer.

My mother and grandmother were Christians. I have a strong matrilineal line going back, and the family has functioned much like crypto Jews with our little Jewish habits--I relate to the marranos. But there is a male in the line, and because of that the Orthodox believed I had to convert. So I felt I needed to clear up issues of status and I ended up going through a conversion. I came within weeks of an Orthodox conversion, but it was not to be: I became very sick and had to move in with family where I could no longer keep strictly kosher to Orthodox standards. It was very very hard for me to leave the Orthodox: I went through a kind of culture shock. I ended up before a Conservative beit din.
 
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Open Heart

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:wave:IF the Midrash Qoheleth statement is interpreted as Torah changing, and this is used to support 2 LAWS, then proving Torah doesn't change would have to give support to ONE LAW.

Just using "reverse theology". :D
I'm just a little slow on this. Could you take it step by step, using the quote and showing how it proves the Torah is changing... Thanks.
 
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aniello

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You know, in Jewish society it is not permitted to ask if someone is born Jewish or a convert since there is no difference in status, but I'm sure you didn't know that, so I'll answer.

My mother and grandmother were Christians. I have a strong matrilineal line going back, and the family has functioned much like crypto Jews with our little Jewish habits--I relate to the marranos. But there is a male in the line, and because of that the Orthodox believed I had to convert. So I felt I needed to clear up issues of status and I ended up going through a conversion. I came within weeks of an Orthodox conversion, but it was not to be: I became very sick and had to move in with family where I could no longer keep strictly kosher to Orthodox standards. It was very very hard for me to leave the Orthodox: I went through a kind of culture shock. I ended up before a Conservative beit din.

So, I am assuming your conversion-confirmation was Masorti. Which is fine by me.

"You know, in Jewish society it is not permitted to ask if someone is born Jewish or a convert since there is no difference in status, but I'm sure you didn't know that, so I'll answer. "

I am 80 years old, July 3,1935, bris July 11,1935. I am bi-racial, father being Oyate Lakota(Oglala/Hunkpapa subtribes), mother being named Miryam Kahn, of a Kahn-Levin marriage, the Jewish side of the family being Sicilian-Italian origin having been expelled circa 1508(+/-). Mizrahi-S'phardic. We still attend a Conservative shul fairly regularly and an M.O. in a town an additional 70 miles further as health, weather, distance and such permit. We also have our christian association with, shall we say, a pastor of more enlightened historical view. We customarily do not ask if a person is a born Jew or convert unless their words or demeanor don't seem to line up. I've known a few things for quite a few years probably even before you were ever born, my dear child.

Now, I must go. Tomorrow I must receive 2-300milliliter units of whole blood at a hospital infusion center 70 miles from here as I have myelodysplastic syndrome(i.e. leukemia).

Buona notta, Buenas noches,
Wolakota, amba, Laila Tov
 
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Open Heart

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Now, I must go. Tomorrow I must receive 2-300milliliter units of whole blood at a hospital infusion center 70 miles from here as I have myelodysplastic syndrome(i.e. leukemia).
You are a very interesting person. I'm so sorry to hear about the leukemia. May God go with you.
 
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Truthfrees

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I'm just a little slow on this. Could you take it step by step, using the quote and showing how it proves the Torah is changing... Thanks.
Torah doesn't change. That was the error I was addressing.

A poster said Torah changes and this is proof for 2 LAW.

:wave:
 
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pat34lee

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2. Paul said the old covenant was passing away in Hebrews 8:13 and this is why the old covenant had to be replaced by the new covenant.

wrong

3. The sacrifices have been done away with because Christ was the real sacrifice that replaced all the shadows and types and those ceremonial sacrifices were done away including divers washings etc. Colossians 2:14-15 and Hebrews 9:9-10.

wrong

4. The civil law is now for the disobedient according to Timothy 1 and if being a christian is who we are in Christ and being empowered by the Holy Spirit and his finished work then we should not be subdued by the law for we already keep it as a whole.

wrong

5. The moral law according to the Mosaic ethic was done away with because of the weakness of the commandment and the specific punishment under the blessing and cursing system of the Mosaic law. Romans 7 talks about the Law was holy and good but was taken advantage of by the law of sin and death and made them live to the frailty of man. This was Paul talking of life under the Mosaic law for in Romans 8 he said the law of the Spirit has done away with the law of sin and death that made them live to the frailty of man.

wrong

6. The new covenant was actually made with Israel and not the church as such.

One correct and you don't even know why. There is no separate church from Israel. One body. One Tree. One bride. Twelve tribes, no gentiles.

7. The grafting in of the gentiles is not into Israel because the body of Christ is what we are baptized into. Today, there is no jew or gentile in the church, no male or female etc.

wrong. wrong.

8. As far as the jews calling as head of the nations and the law being put into their hearts will not happen until the millennial kingdom.

DING DING. Goes for gentiles too. THAT IS THE NEW COVENANT!!

You should get the point by now.
 
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