The obvious acts of the sinful nature

[Elijah2]

I don't believe it is easy. I said I don't believe Christians have a sin nature. Our spirits are re-created at conversion, but our minds aren't. We have to renew our minds, like you said. This is a lifelong journey. This doesn't mean we have a sin nature though. The phrase cannot be found anywhere in the Bible.

Christians don't have a sin nature. Christians who sin do so because they choose to, not because they have to. A Christian who sins has no excuses because there is no sin nature to blame. Christians who blame a supposed sin nature for their sins are attributing their misdeeds to something that doesn't exist.

However, I'm more honest. Whenever I have sinned, I did it because I wanted to. I yielded thought by thought until I ended up doing it. It was my fault. I know, it's hard to admit when you are wrong and people need to find someone or something to blame when they screw up (Adam and Eve, for example) If we can be mature enough to admit when we mess up, go to God and find forgiveness, we can grow and mature in the Lord to the point where years down the road, we are no longer living in sin at all. An excuse is nothing but a explanation designed to keep you where you are.

Hi Wiley,

There’s no “blame game” involved in having a sinful nature. Sin is sin, it basically all about our “flesh”, as we human beings prefer to do things our way, and in doing so we can, either consciously or unconsciously, build up a resentment toward our Lord Jesus Christ’s authority over us, and that happens often with some Christians. This happens because many haven’t crucified their flesh, as they still have many underlying hostilities within their carnal mind and spiritual mind of their “soul”, which may cause rebellion and disobedience. This is another reason why we find many struggling Christians in the Body of Christ.

Through our sinful nature, human nature, we simply ignore some of His laws that affect our “comfort zone”, or reinterpret them to fit our own views, and these wrong attitudes begin in our carnal mind, which then feeds our spiritual mind that causes many mystifying conflicts.

When this happens we don’t understand ourself, we find ourself defeated, not doing what we want to do, and doing what we hate to do. Most of our conflict identifies two identities within us, and become “double-minded”. But, after good, sound teaching we finally begin to “transform and renew our minds (carnal and spiritual)” acknowledging that the “law is good”, and the “sin that dwells” in us, is evil.

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” (Rom. 7:14-17)

“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind (sinful nature) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:6-8)

When a believer lives “according to the flesh” and “in the flesh” it’s basically the same as living in a “sinful nature”, a “nature” that will not completely submit to our Lord Jesus Christ. Christians/believers who live this way are under the control of their “sinful human nature”.

Our struggle is how to understand the “dead” body, in which sin dwells, and how can it be made into a vehicle for expressing the life of our Lord Jesus Christ? Yes, it can, because as we “transform and renew” our “soul” we begin to fill and cleanse ourselves, and begin to walk in obedience and discipline of His Word and our Lord Jesus Christ.

It all comes down to confession and repentance.

“To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:15)

“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. ‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,’ says the LORD.” (Isa. 55:7-8)

 

[Elijah2]

Well at least nobody has voted me into hell.

Hold on now, I haven't casted my vote!

 

[imperfectchristian]

Hold on now, I haven't casted my vote!

Oh Great!

 

[pinetree]

Ah, brother. Your use of contextomy as well as successfully incorporating many logical fallacies into one post astounds me. By your reasoning, we have two natures, working simultaneously in one body. So are we schizo? What does NEW NATURE mean? From what I understand, if we can abide in Jesus, we can live a sin free life. It is only when we make the CHOICE to step away from Jesus that we are capable of sinning.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:6-8)

If we abide in Jesus, we will SIN NOT. How much clearer do we need the scriptures to be? Also note that I included more than one scripture, since I don't like to quote out of context like some people I know.



This is actually a reiteration of my point. Taken in context, the verse you quoted does not say we have a sin nature. It is saying to stand firm and not be entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage. (sin) The passage is actually speaking about love being a fulfillment of the whole law. If we walk in the Spirit, we shall NOT fulfil the lust of the flesh. (v. 16) The passage is admonishing us to stay in the Spirit, something we have a choice to do. This passage actually PROVES my point. As Christians, sin knocks at our door but we have power over sin AND the devil.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

Oh, and I noticed that you provided links for all of your other quoted verses but you didn't for this one. Why is that? You quoted the NIV translation, correct? Isn't there a footnote at the end of 'sinful nature' in the NIV translation? The footnote is an indication that 'sinful nature' was a questionable translation. Since you didn't provide a link, I will include the footnote here, for all to see.

Galatians 5:13 Or the flesh; also in verses 16, 17, 19 and 24. (Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%205:13;&version=31)

Ah, so 'sinful nature' is really translated 'flesh'. This is the word used in the King James version. This word 'flesh' comes from the greek word sarx and this speaks of our fleshly appetites, our animalistic cravings which desire to be fed, without any suggestion of depravity.(Source:http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4561&t=NIV)

Simply put, it is the POWER OF SIN, but it is not a sin nature. This power dwells IN us but it is NOT us. The flesh can incite, or tempt us to sin but it is not part of our personalities. The reason for this is simple. Our bodies were not 'born again' after our conversion. We didn't enter into our mother's bodies to be born a second time as newborn babies. When we became born again, our SPIRITS were re-created, not our flesh. Our flesh remained the same. We still get sick, we still get hungry, thirsty, we still have to eventually die. We are capable of sinning because we live in a corruptible vessel. But being capable of sinning is not equated with having a sin nature, or being a sinner. That is why we are told to walk in the spirit. 'Sin nature' depicts the old man, the man we used to be before Jesus saved us. But Jesus saved us and re-created our spirits and gave us a new nature. Therefore, we are not sinners or have a sin nature. We are the righteousness of God in Jesus.

You have said alot...

But you have not said anything that disproves the verses I posted.

All the verses speak for themselves,and mean just what they say,in context,or just as a singular truth.No matter what the translation.

These clearly show 2 natures.



Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature(sarx 4561); rather, serve one another in love.
sarx
Definition:1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Obviously this body of death,has a nature.


Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the (sinful nature)(sarx,4561) a slave to the law of sin.


I cant help it if you cant understand a simple to read versse like Romans7;17.It is quite clear.Paul is talking in the first person,about the sin living in him.Yet not I,he said,apparently it shows duality.

Romans 7:17
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me

I cant help it if you do not understand that the flesh has a nature living in theses bodies,as stated in Col3:5

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh(sarx4561) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

(sarx again,4561,greek)

Here are some more verses,that show the 2 natures..sarx,with the full meaning.

Rom8:5
For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6
For the outlook of the flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace,

Gal5:16
But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.

I mean the ability to sin has to be somewhere in us...

If there was no nature,then what sins,or has a weakness to sin,it cant be our spirits?

 

[pinetree]

wiley..

Lets see you skirt around this..LOL!

Col 2:11
In him you also were circumcised – not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the fleshly body, that is, through the circumcision done by Christ.


It is clearly about a nature to be circumcision performed.

Another point.

If the flesh does not have a nature,then why this description of it.

If we are to think the flesh only means.."animal body",then we are to presume my pet hamster can do all theses things below here in Pauls description of the nature of the flesh.

By the way,here comes that funny little "sarx" word again.. Sure sounds liks a nature to me!More than just an animal body description!

Sure sounds depraved to me...look what nature dwells in these earthly bodies.


Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh (sarx)are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Colossians 3:5
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[WileyCoyote]

You have said alot...

But you have not said anything that disproves the verses I posted.

All righty, Piney. Let's play ball.

All the verses speak for themselves,and mean just what they say,in context,or just as a singular truth.No matter what the translation.

These clearly show 2 natures.



Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature(sarx 4561); rather, serve one another in love.

Definition:1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Obviously this body of death,has a nature.

'Sin nature' was never an adequate translation for Galatians 5:13. The word sarx doesn't mean that. This word implies one kind of nature. Animalistic nature, earthly nature. In other words, HUMAN NATURE. All this means is that we are human beings. Well, DUH. All you've proven is that we are imperfect human beings. 'Sinful nature' has nothing to do with having an imperfect body that will eventually die. Let me prove it to you.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

The word 'flesh' in this passage comes from that same greek word sarx. If it meant 'sin nature', that would mean our Lord and Savior had a sin nature. Is that what you are saying? :o

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Ephesians 5:30)

Again, same greek word. We are members of Christ's body, of His FLESH. Are you comfortable saying that this word means a 'sin nature' now?

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" (1 John 4:2)

Jesus, you came in the sinful nature!!

Does this confession mean I am now of God?

Don't you see that it is a consistent pattern all throughout the New Testament that this word sarx isn't speaking of any 'sinful nature' but it is speaking of the fact that we live in an imperfect body that desires to have it's needs met, just like our Lord and Savior did. As I've proven, if the word means 'sin nature' then Jesus Himself had a sin nature.

But even if you want to ignore ALL this evidence, I have a passage for you that might be difficult for you to reconcile with your views.

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:5-6)

Again, the word sarx is the original word for 'flesh' in this passage. Even if you were to successfully convince me that this word meant 'sin nature', the above passage presents a problem for you. It is saying that we WERE in the flesh, but NOW we are delivered from it, dead to it. I still uphold my view that flesh means our animalistic fleshy nature, as the translation means, but even if it meant 'sin nature' it would be saying we are not in it anymore. How do you reconcile THIS passage with your views?


We don't have a 'sin nature' anymore because the old man was destroyed, crucified with Christ.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Romans 6:6)

If our old man was crucified with Him and the 'body of sin' destroyed, how can you still say we have a sin nature?

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the (sinful nature)(sarx,4561) a slave to the law of sin.


I cant help it if you cant understand a simple to read versse like Romans7;17.It is quite clear.Paul is talking in the first person,about the sin living in him.Yet not I,he said,apparently it shows duality.

Romans 7:17
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me

I cant help it if you do not understand that the flesh has a nature living in theses bodies,as stated in Col3:5

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh(sarx4561) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

(sarx again,4561,greek)

Well, let's ignore for the moment that sarx is speaking about our human body. Let's ignore all the scriptures that speak of it being of a fleshy nature, not a sinful nature. Let's ignore that the word is used to describe Jesus's own physical body. Let's even throw out scriptures like this:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39)

Now THIS is speaking of Jesus's resurrected body. Guess what that word 'flesh' translates to? YOU GUESSED IT. Sarx.

Sarx simply means human body. Nowhere in the Bible does it imply that it is anything other than that. It doesn't mean 'sinful nature'. It simply means body. For now, it means a corruptible vessel that will one day die. After the resurrection, it will mean an incorruptible vessel that will NEVER DIE.

If there was no nature,then what sins,or has a weakness to sin,it cant be our spirits?

WE sin, but that doesn't mean we have a SIN NATURE. We aren't sinners saved by grace, but we are SAINTS who are capable of sinning. When we were in our 'old self' we couldn't help but to sin because by nature, we WERE sinners. But now we have been set free from the law of sin and death. We don't have to submit to the appetites of the flesh but we have the power, through the Holy Spirit, to walk in the Spirit. All of this was purchased for us on the cross. And that is why we call Him Savior.

 

[pinetree]

naaaaaa,your not really playing ball..

All you have done,is show a simple truth,to which most people already know.

sarx can have 2 meanings,thats clearly what it shows..


Here,sarx is used not to describe a nature..

Col 1:22
but now he has reconciled you by his physical body(sarx) through death to present you holy, without blemish, and blameless before him –

Or here..

Heb 10:20
by the fresh and living way that he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, through his(sarx) flesh,

That is why the different meanings are in the definition.

That is why context of the sentence,the surrounding words and meaning must be applied when we approach scripture.Also the context of the paragraph.

Here again in the definition we see all the meanings.

All the verses I posted,sarx is used to describe a nature,like we see in the definition,2c,2c2 and 4.

sarx
Definition:1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God


Again,see theses verse,and it is clear why sarx is used in the context of the nature of the flesh!

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the (sinful nature)(sarx,4561) a slave to the law of sin.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh(sarx4561) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And These use sarx,also to describe nature,read them it is quite obvious.

Here are some more verses,that show the 2 natures..sarx,with the full meaning.
Sarx there is used to clearly describe nature!

Rom8:5
For those who live according to the(sarx) flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6
For the outlook of the (sarx)flesh is death, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace,

Gal5:16
But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the (sarx)flesh.

AND HERE IS THE BIGGIE! LOL... Sarx is used as nature.....very clearly...

Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh (sarx)are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you never answered my question...

Col 2:11
In him you also were circumcised not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the (sarx)fleshly body, that is, through the circumcision done by Christ.

Still think it is not a nature,that the spirit performs circumcision too?

It clearly states already,it is not of the physical body...

There is that good ole word,that can be used to denote a nature,of the body..sarx.

However,sarx is clearly used to describe a nature,unless we are to believe it meant we are being snipped again! ouch!

 

[pinetree]

Wiley..
Here are some more verses where sarx is clearly used to describe nature..

You tried to play ball with brother pinetree,but lost!

No problemo,it is all fun..

Rom8:7
because the outlook of the(sarx) flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so.

Romans13:14
Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the (sarx)flesh to arouse its desires.

2Pet 2:18
For by speaking high-sounding but empty words they are able to entice, with (sarx)fleshly desires and with debauchery, people who have just escaped from those who reside in error.

Eph 2:3
among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our(sarx) flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

Dude,,if we say we dont sin,we make Him out to be a liar..

So the sin,or desire or capicity must be in us somewhere???

Hint...........sarx....

 

[pinetree]

bump

 

[WileyCoyote]

Hello, Pinetree. Forgive me for not answering yesterday. I was out and away from internet access for most of the day.

Well Piney. You have again proven that you cannot formulate a coherent argument without using logical fallacies and contextomy. I don't know if I can even continue to debate with you.

wiley..

Lets see you skirt around this..LOL!

It's a shame that you can see the 'skirting around' that I supposedly do while failing to see you are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing. You have addressed virtually NONE of my arguments and instead, resorting to wholesale copying and pasting of scriptures.

I said. . .

I don't believe in the "Dual Nature" doctrine. I don't believe that the children of God have a sin nature because the Bible says we have a new nature. How can a sin nature and a transformed nature exist in the same vessel? Either you are a new creature, or you are not. Look up 'sin nature' in the scriptures; you will not find it. If people feel they can't help but to sin, maybe they need to renew their minds so they can get rid of that destructive mindset.

. . . and YOU responded by copying and pasting five scriptures and commenting briefly, followed by using a straw man argument.

I guess we dont need an advocate with the Father??

I never said we didn't need an advocate with the Father. This was a clear misrepresentation of my position, while at the same time completely dancing around the points I was trying to make. But this isn't the first time you danced around my points.

I said. . .

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:6-8)

If we abide in Jesus, we will SIN NOT. How much clearer do we need the scriptures to be? Also note that I included more than one scripture, since I don't like to quote out of context like some people I know.

. . .in which you replied

You have said alot...

But you have not said anything that disproves the verses I posted.

You didn't address the scripture I quoted. All you did was make the allegation that I didn't 'disprove' the verses you quoted. I'm not out to disprove any verse in the Bible (another misrepresentation) but only your faulty interpretation of scriptures as well as your quoting scriptures out of context, which I showed in the same post. (and you still have yet to answer for) It seems you even tried to hide the fact that 'sin nature' in your first scripture quotation was actually translated 'flesh', which would explain why you didn't provide a link to the scripture, as you did with the others. What were you trying to hide? If you weren't trying to hide anything, why didn't you provide a link?

And then after that, you acknowledge that the phrase 'sin nature' is indeed translated 'flesh' and then resort to EVEN MORE wholesale copying and pasting of scriptures. This is a pattern that you have repeated throughout the entire debate.

I said. . .

But even if you want to ignore ALL this evidence, I have a passage for you that might be difficult for you to reconcile with your views.

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:5-6)

Again, the word sarx is the original word for 'flesh' in this passage. Even if you were to successfully convince me that this word meant 'sin nature', the above passage presents a problem for you. It is saying that we WERE in the flesh, but NOW we are delivered from it, dead to it. I still uphold my view that flesh means our animalistic fleshy nature, as the translation means, but even if it meant 'sin nature' it would be saying we are not in it anymore. How do you reconcile THIS passage with your views?

. . .and you replied

sarx can have 2 meanings,thats clearly what it shows..

So first it means 'sin nature' and NOW it has two meanings. Well, which IS it, Piney? You're being schizo again.

You didn't answer the question. You never addressed this scripture quotation, rather, you vaguely pointed out that sarx can have two meanings (I guess whichever you want it to mean at the time) But that never answered my question that if it really DID mean 'sin nature' then how would you reconcile the above passage with your views, since it says we WERE in the flesh, but NOW we were delivered from it? This is another question you danced around. And worse still, you started copying and pasting AGAIN after dancing around my points. And for good effect, you throw in a bandwagon argument to convince me of your position.

All you have done,is show a simple truth,to which most people already know.

In other words, since 'most people' know this, I should jump on the bandwagon and accept it too, right?

In your arguments, I see a consistent pattern of glossing over points, wholesale copying/pasting. Gloss over points, wholesale copying/pasting. This is a clever tactic because it always keeps ME on the defensive while alleviating you of the responsibility of addressing/rebutting my arguments. Piney, for all of the scriptures you post, not only would I have to point out how your faulty interpretation of the 'flesh' doesn't tie into them, I also have to point out how you've taken each one out of context, a process that can take HOURS if you keep repeating the same pattern of 'skirting, copying and pasting...' ad nauseum. Frankly, I'm only one man with 24 hours in the day. You've used this same strategy on me before when you copied and pasted an ENTIRE ARTICLE in response to my posts. I've seen you copy and paste an ENTIRE list of Word of Faith ministers who have died of diseases in response to things people were posting. How long would it take us to refute these things? My point is that most of us don't have 10 hours to refute something you copied and pasted in five seconds. We have lives to live. I suspect most of the people you incorporate this tactic on give up, not because they can't refute you (or, refute the people you copy and paste from) but they give up out of frustration. But if that wasn't enough, you arrogantly proclaim. . .

You tried to play ball with brother pinetree,but lost!

. . . though I fail to see how I 'lost' anything when you have yet to respond to nearly every point I've made. You haven't addressed them, and the only one you DID address, you had to feed off of my own research to do it.

These tactics are getting old and tiresome. However, I am not an unreasonable man and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you are not aware of your many logical fallacies. Maybe you are not aware that you misrepresent my position more than once. Maybe you are not aware of the questions you have left unanswered. Maybe you are not aware that you hypocritically point out my spelling/grammatical errors, while in the exact same sentence, do the very thing you make fun of me for doing. . .

Boy,and I though I was a bad speller/typer.LOL...
ROFL

. . .but that's why I am here, to bring these things to your attention. But I have to say that until you can learn to debate in an honest fashion without using fallacies designed to help you win on a technicality and until you can address the points I have already made, I cannot continue to debate with you. Not only here, but EVER. I will not debate with a person who acts like it is fun to play games during a serious debate.

No problemo,it is all fun..

So until these things are corrected, I will leave this debate alone and will seek out those who wish to debate honestly, for the purpose of helping one another to grow. God bless you, Pinetree.

 

[pinetree]

lol!
You! your the one who said we dont have 2 natures..

You tried to use only one definition of sarx,to prove your incorrect views!

YOU babble on and on...

Yes, I posted (pasted)all the verses that show sarx means nature also....

YOOOOUUUUU implied it had one meaning,by posting only one part of the whole definition!

You lost cowboy!

Are you from California?

All the verses show that sarx means nature,stop spinning,and humble yourself..

Here it is again,no diversion,lets stick to the scriptures!,,

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the (sinful nature)(sarx,4561) a slave to the law of sin.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh(sarx4561) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh (sarx)are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Actually I have more,if your one definition self wants em...

Be careful next time you try to play ball with ,as you put it.."false teacher " brother pinetree..

Take care bro,you should bow out gracefully now..

 

[pinetree]

One mo time,for my buddy Wiley..

Here is the full definition..

You must practice proper Bible interpretaion!

And learn that greek words ,such as sarx,can have dual meanings!

Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature(sarx 4561); rather, serve one another in love.


sarx

Definition:1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers
the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
2a) the body of a man
2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or
relationship
2b1) born of natural generation
2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
2c1) without any suggestion of depravity
2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh)
whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart
from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God