The Novus Ordo...

Fantine

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Perhaps because beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

I personally find the term "novus ordo" to be extremely pretentious. Vatican II ended 50 years ago, before most Catholics were born. Even I was just a kid...

So it's not really "novus ordo" anymore, if it ever was....only to those who prefer living in the past to present moment thinking.

I live in a small city in the South (and having lived in the suburbs of NYC most of my life, that's two strikes against where I live....) My preference, of course, is for a vibrant, diverse metropolitan area with open-minded people, instead of my current locale.

And so I travel to larger cities several times a year, and believe me it's worth the trip.

And so if you enjoy the Tridentine Mass, and think it's worth the trip to attend one, you are free to do so.

Just as I feel out of place in my current locale, you feel out of place at Masses of the current century.

I highly recommend pursuing your joy wherever it takes you.
 
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Rhamiel

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Novus Ordo is an accepted term
Fantine, the Church is about 2,000 years old
so being around 50 years old is still VERY new for an ancient Church


now for the OP
well one reason for the change
Latin was no longer the universal language of the West

I am not sure for all the other changes
 
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Fantine

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A universal Church is growing by leaps and bounds in some countries that might have hundreds of native dialects--in Africa and Asia.

Using the vernacular makes the Mass more accessible. The Church is experiencing its greatest growth in areas where there is very little universal education.

When I went to Catholic high school, I took four years of Latin, but in many parts of the world people don't have the opportunity to receive an education.

BTW, I know a priest who is a missionary from India, and he never studied any Latin in the seminary. He was too busy preparing for an arduous life in the missions of India (and eventually the United States).
 
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pdudgeon

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I cannot figure out why someone who hates the small town south so much, and says as much so often, would continue to live there.

LOL, small cities in the South are usually small for two reasons;
1. an earlier transition from reliance on water transport in a previous century to a paved or dirt road and automotive transport today.
2. transition from self reliance on locally produced and sold goods, to commutes to the next largest city for outside jobs and purchases.
In earlier times the smallness of a town was not as great a concern as it is today.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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LOL, small cities in the South are usually small for two reasons;
1. an earlier transition from reliance on water transport in a previous century to a paved or dirt road and automotive transport today.
2. transition from self reliance on locally produced and sold goods, to commutes to the next largest city for outside jobs and purchases.
In earlier times the smallness of a town was not as great a concern as it is today.
I live in Illinois, but I also live in a town with 190 people. Small towns from Central Illinois downward are indistinguishable from small towns in southern states from a cultural aspect. I can freely fly a confederate flag and we can even, GASP, say Jesus and merry Christmas in schools. There's no liberal garbage and I love it.
 
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Fantine

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LOL! Last week someone asked me why I still had a bumper sticker on my car for the losing gubernatorial and senatorial candidates. Shortly afterwards I saw someone driving down the road with a gigantic Confederate flag perched in his pickup. "Next time," I thought, "I can say, 'Well, my stickers are for candidates who lost an election last year, but there are plenty of people in this town who drive around with flags glorifying wars that were lost 150 years ago!"'

The smallest town I ever lived in was in South Dakota. It was a university town of about 12,000, but it was lovely. It was like this little oasis in a cornfield, filled with arts and culture and progressives in exile. I audited a class in steel drums (i.e. playing the pans) and my daughter took fencing in third grade. You couldn't go anywhere without getting involved in such interesting conversations. So it was good.

This town in the south is about 8 times as large, but the politics--in the town and in the state--are stultifying and oppressive. My husband came here for his last job (he is now retired) and since he had had good jobs all his life, he did well--not as well as some of his other jobs, but still quite well by most standards. But I was surrounded by workers who were exploited and mistreated and I saw so much injustice--inflicted on people who had been brainwashed into thinking wedge issues were more important than justice for their families. SO depressing...there is more arts and culture here than there used to be, and, after diligent searching, met other misplaced progressives who became my friends.

I'm still working--found a job I love after 7 years of looking--but will probably move when I retire.
 
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Jared R

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I've been very blessed to attend a TLM parish for the past 2 years, and it has made a profound difference in my spiritual life. The Holy Mass is the most powerful spiritual aid on the planet, because it's the very same sacrifice of Calvary, in an unbloody manner. Doesn't it make sense that the devil would target the Mass? It's not for me to say whether Pope Paul VI should have promulgated the new order of the Mass, but what is undeniably clear to me is that the devil "pounced" as soon as he did and took advantage of this move, raising up an "army of innovators" to introduce all kinds of irreverence in the way Mass is said and heard. And now of course the worship we find in most of our parishes is not really the best we can offer God, but something very mediocre and unmoving.

Maybe the NO was an imprudent decision. I don't know. I can't answer the question without feeling I am overstepping myself. But I will say the TLM is beautiful and you should assist at one regularly if you can. :)
 
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Michie

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I'm so glad you are feeling spiritually fulfilled! Are you still pondering a possible vocation?

I've been very blessed to attend a TLM parish for the past 2 years, and it has made a profound difference in my spiritual life. The Holy Mass is the most powerful spiritual aid on the planet, because it's the very same sacrifice of Calvary, in an unbloody manner. Doesn't it make sense that the devil would target the Mass? It's not for me to say whether Pope Paul VI should have promulgated the new order of the Mass, but what is undeniably clear to me is that the devil "pounced" as soon as he did and took advantage of this move, raising up an "army of innovators" to introduce all kinds of irreverence in the way Mass is said and heard. And now of course the worship we find in most of our parishes is not really the best we can offer God, but something very mediocre and unmoving.

Maybe the NO was an imprudent decision. I don't know. I can't answer the question without feeling I am overstepping myself. But I will say the TLM is beautiful and you should assist at one regularly if you can. :)
 
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MikeK

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I too prefer the Tridentine Mass, but I understand why the NO was created. There were an awful lot of Catholics who would attend Mass but not follow, not really participate. The language barrier was a significant obsticle for many. The option of the NO addresses this issue and thankfully, those who prefer the Latin Mass and following along in a missal have that option too. It's the same Jesus being worshipped in the Flesh at both forms, and I trust that both forms please God immensely.
 
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concretecamper

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Hello guys. I was studying about the Liturgical part of the RCC and I simply wondered why something as beautiful as the Mass of Pius V (Tridentine Mass) was replaced by the Novus Ordo Missae, any answers?

I don't think it was a matter of language. A simple translation into the vernacular would have solved that problem.

The Mass was modernized in order to get the people more involved. Some of the changes mirrored some protestant examples....great idea huh!

As a result, the Mass lost it's vertical dimension. More emphasis was put on the priest and people. As a result, over the past 50 years we have seen some rather odd things happen. Why just last week in my parish we had a lay person behind the alter handing out chalices and ciboria. We regularly have women with a lot of cleavage showing distributing the Eucharist. These two things would never happen at a Tridentine Mass. People knew what was happening....not today

lex orandi lex credendi
 
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dzheremi

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As someone who was Catholic before becoming Orthodox, it's hard to miss the differences in orientation between modern Roman Catholic and Orthodox worship. From what I have seen and been told by people of my grandparent's generation who grew up in the 30s and 40s, the same is true about old Roman Catholic worship and modern Roman Catholic worship (my grandparents on my father's side came from traditionally Catholic countries like Mexico and Ireland back before mass attendance was as low as it is today, so they would know). I too don't understand why a translation into the vernacular did not become the norm instead of making a new type of mass, but hey...not my church, so I'm not going to judge it. I am personally much more attuned to the Orthodox way (it manages to be participatory without losing its 'vertical' dimension, as another poster put it), but it's really apples and oranges. I hope that everyone in the RCC is truly fed by their mass. That's what I'd rather say. And of course it's good that the more traditional option is still available, though the fact that it is seen as "extraordinary" rather than what's normative gives me pause. I would guess that, in Catholic terms, our normative liturgy is more akin to the 'extraordinary form', and something like the Novus Ordo is just not existing. Which for us is a good thing. (Eastern liturgies really wouldn't work the way that the modern RC mass is set up, since we chant everything, do not face the people for most of the liturgy, don't have modern instruments in the liturgy, etc.)
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The reason for changing from the Tridentine Latin Mass(TLM), to the Novus Ordo(NO), was not only to open more active participation of the people at Mass, but also to move the Mass closer to the original Mass of the Early Christian Church.

The NO did not remove Latin per se, but allowed for the vernacular. In the early days after Vatican II, the Bishops were allowed time for experimentation to see what worked best. The NO evolved quickly and the vernacular became predominate to the point that Latin was almost never used outside of monasteries and the Vatican.

Anyway, it's a good idea to read through "Sacrosanctum Concilium,The Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy," to get a better idea of the spirit behind Vatican II in changing over to the NO.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

I grew up in the Church before Vatican II when the TLM was the ordinary. Even trained to be an altar boy, which meant memorizing by rote, the Latin responses.

Essentially, people sat in the pews and some followed along with their missals or the missalette in the pews, which were usually in very bad shape. Most people daydreamed while others prayed the Rosary. They stood and kneeled as the nuns taught and those who didn't go to Catholic school, just mimicked those who knew.

The priest and altar boys essentially said the Mass.

I've also attended the NO in Latin at the local Benedictine Monastery, where they celebrate the NO with the responses chanted in Latin. On Thursday, the entire Mass is in Latin, as well as the Divine Office.

Its OK, but I also attend a Trappist Monestary where they chant the NO in English.
I prefer this over the Latin, for its so much easier to understand the words.

We'll never see a return to Mass celebrated in only Latin. Thank God!

Jim
 
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MikeK

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3 words to answer this question

Novus ordo seclorum

How do those words answer the question, and what question was asked? Are you a fan of Virgil? Are you inspired by the new order that was instituted with the founding of the United States?
 
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Fantine

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There are three kinds of prayer--vertical, horizontal, and internal.

Vertical: God's in heaven, we're down on earth looking up.
Horizontal: "Wherever two or more are gathered in God's name, God is in their midst."
Internal: We are temples of the Holy Spirit, God dwells within us.

In my own prayer life, I would say I spend about 90% of my prayer time in horizontal and internal prayer (I could probably say 99% but I'm trying to impress y'all).

The Mass has aspects of all three types of prayer, and I suppose that some may perceive it as being primarily a vertical prayer. I look at it primarily as horizontal prayer.

Another song I love--never heard it till the NPM conference last year (i.e. certified Catholic). Grayson Warren Brown:


Isn't that we all hope for?
 
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