The myth of the "Nested Hierarchy of Common Descent"

lifepsyop

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How many times have you heard this?

"We know Evolution is true because all of life falls into a nested hierarchy of common descent."


Evolutionists like to paint the picture that this nested hierarchy is tightly constrained, and that any violation would disprove the theory. This is important because they need people to believe that Evolution is constantly being rigorously tested and confirmed in this way.

As with most of their grand sweeping claims of the theory's superiority, this one is also false. This is because the "nested hierarchy of common descent" is designed to always be able to be molded around to fit in new data that doesn't agree with it.

For example, a recently discovered dinosaur that did not fit.
Chilesaurus_diegosuarezi-xl.jpg


Bizarre 'platypus' dinosaur: Vegetarian relative of T. rex - ScienceDaily

"Palaeontologists are referring to Chilesaurus diegosuarezi as a 'platypus' dinosaur because of its bizarre combination of characters that resemble different dinosaur groups. For example, Chilesaurus boasted a proportionally small skull, hands with two fingers like Tyrannosaurus rex and feet more akin to primitive long-neck dinosaurs.

The different parts of the body of Chilesaurus were adapted to a particular diet and way of life, which was similar to other groups of dinosaurs. As a result of these similar habits, different regions of the body of Chilesaurus evolved resembling those present in other, unrelated groups of dinosaurs, which is a phenomenon called evolutionary convergence.


Chilesaurus represents one of the most extreme cases of mosaic convergent evolution recorded in the history of life. For example, the teeth of Chilesaurus are very similar to those of primitive long-neck dinosaurs because they were selected over millions of years as a result of a similar diet between these two lineages of dinosaurs.


Martín Ezcurra, Researcher, School of Geography, Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Birmingham said: 'Chilesaurus can be considered a 'platypus' dinosaur because different parts of its body resemble those of other dinosaur groups due to mosaic convergent evolution. In this process, a region or regions of an organism resemble others of unrelated species because of a similar mode of life and evolutionary pressures. Chilesaurus provides a good example of how evolution works in deep time and it is one of the most interesting cases of convergent evolution documented in the history of life."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150427124631.htm


An enigmatic plant-eating theropod from the Late Jurassic period of Chile - Nature 2015

"Chilesaurus represents an extreme case of mosaic evolution among dinosaurs, owing to the presence of dental, cranial and postcranial features that are homoplastic with multiple disparate groups. Using quantitative morphospace analysis, we explored morphospace occupation of different skeletal regions in Chilesaurus with respect to a variety of avian and non-avian theropods. This shows that Chilesaurus has a ceratosaur-like axial skeleton, a 'basal tetanuran' forelimb and scapular girdle, a coelurosaur-like pelvis, and a tetanuran-like hindlimb. General ankle and foot construction does not group with any theropod clade, probably as a result of the characters shared by Chilesaurus, sauropodomorphs and herrerasaurids."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14307.html

Notice the rescue devices at work for any unexpected patterns. It is usually some type of independent "convergence" of traits, or a "mosaic" of traits. Evolutionists can never tell you what the limits are to this supposed convergence, they just keep invoking it whenever they need to explain something unexpected. There is no evidence that these traits "convergently evolved"... it is just assumed that they must have.

(notice that evolutionists will never distinguish for you what they're assuming and what is actually found in data. They always want to equivocate and keep things confusing for their audience)

So this is why the "nested hierarchy of common descent" can so easily adjust to new unexpected data.

Evolution theory is always basing its nested hierarchy models on the existence of imaginary "common ancestors". You are frequently presented a tree-like diagram depicting major animal groups at the node ends. What you are usually not told is that the base of those tree nodes (which represent common ancestors) are imaginary.

shapeimage_1.jpg


So because the ancestral nodes are imaginary, whenever an animal is discovered exhibiting an unexpected pattern of traits, evolutionists can simply carve out a new imaginary branching event for that animal in their nested hierarchy diagrams. They can root this animal's lineage as far back as necessary to show where it would have branched off from a "common ancestor" and began developing its unique pattern of traits.

This is all possible because evolutionists are constantly working with imaginary events in the mystical imaginary evolutionary past.

Furthermore, even existing lineages can be fundamentally rearranged if it means harmonizing evolutionary models with new data. All of it is malleable play-doh that is designed to accommodate unexpected data.

So essentially whenever their "nested hierarchy" is broken, they can simply fabricate a new nested group to fix it.

This is all fine and dandy for the purposes of working with hypothetical models... but hopefully you now see how absurd the claim is that Evolution is somehow being rigorously 'tested' because all of life falls into a "nested hierarchy of common descent". This is yet another myth that the evolutionary community perpetuates to sell you their creation religion.

Evolution is a fog that settles around the shifting landscape of data.
 

Audacious

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So they can adjust scientific knowledge based upon new information... and you think that this means that the whole idea of a nested hierarchy is a lie? That doesn't really make any sense.

To quote Dara Ó Briain: "Science knows it doesn't know everything. Otherwise, it'd stop." It's made so that it can adjust to new data and incorporate it into the body of older knowledge, using that older knowledge to understand and analyze the new stuff.

Have you considered reading books about science? Real books, not creationist stuff. Because you seem somewhat uneducated on the scientific method.
 
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lifepsyop

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So they can adjust scientific knowledge based upon new information... and you think that this means that the whole idea of a nested hierarchy is a lie? That doesn't really make any sense..

This is the type of strawman response I expected.

Notice I said nothing about the nested hierarchy being "a lie", or wrong.

I said the popular claim from evolutionists that the "nested hierarchy is a confirmation of evolution", is false. We can see it is not really a test of common descent.
 
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crjmurray

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How many times have you heard this?

"We know Evolution is true because all of life falls into a nested hierarchy of common descent."


Evolutionists like to paint the picture that this nested hierarchy is tightly constrained, and that any violation would disprove the theory. This is important because they need people to believe that Evolution is constantly being rigorously tested and confirmed in this way.

As with most of their grand sweeping claims of the theory's superiority, this one is also false. This is because the "nested hierarchy of common descent" is designed to always be able to be molded around to fit in new data that doesn't agree with it.

For example, a recently discovered dinosaur that did not fit.
Chilesaurus_diegosuarezi-xl.jpg


Bizarre 'platypus' dinosaur: Vegetarian relative of T. rex - ScienceDaily

"Palaeontologists are referring to Chilesaurus diegosuarezi as a 'platypus' dinosaur because of its bizarre combination of characters that resemble different dinosaur groups. For example, Chilesaurus boasted a proportionally small skull, hands with two fingers like Tyrannosaurus rex and feet more akin to primitive long-neck dinosaurs.

The different parts of the body of Chilesaurus were adapted to a particular diet and way of life, which was similar to other groups of dinosaurs. As a result of these similar habits, different regions of the body of Chilesaurus evolved resembling those present in other, unrelated groups of dinosaurs, which is a phenomenon called evolutionary convergence.


Chilesaurus represents one of the most extreme cases of mosaic convergent evolution recorded in the history of life. For example, the teeth of Chilesaurus are very similar to those of primitive long-neck dinosaurs because they were selected over millions of years as a result of a similar diet between these two lineages of dinosaurs.


Martín Ezcurra, Researcher, School of Geography, Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Birmingham said: 'Chilesaurus can be considered a 'platypus' dinosaur because different parts of its body resemble those of other dinosaur groups due to mosaic convergent evolution. In this process, a region or regions of an organism resemble others of unrelated species because of a similar mode of life and evolutionary pressures. Chilesaurus provides a good example of how evolution works in deep time and it is one of the most interesting cases of convergent evolution documented in the history of life."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150427124631.htm


An enigmatic plant-eating theropod from the Late Jurassic period of Chile - Nature 2015

"Chilesaurus represents an extreme case of mosaic evolution among dinosaurs, owing to the presence of dental, cranial and postcranial features that are homoplastic with multiple disparate groups. Using quantitative morphospace analysis, we explored morphospace occupation of different skeletal regions in Chilesaurus with respect to a variety of avian and non-avian theropods. This shows that Chilesaurus has a ceratosaur-like axial skeleton, a 'basal tetanuran' forelimb and scapular girdle, a coelurosaur-like pelvis, and a tetanuran-like hindlimb. General ankle and foot construction does not group with any theropod clade, probably as a result of the characters shared by Chilesaurus, sauropodomorphs and herrerasaurids."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14307.html

Notice the rescue devices at work for any unexpected patterns. It is usually some type of independent "convergence" of traits, or a "mosaic" of traits. Evolutionists can never tell you what the limits are to this supposed convergence, they just keep invoking it whenever they need to explain something unexpected. There is no evidence that these traits "convergently evolved"... it is just assumed that they must have.

(notice that evolutionists will never distinguish for you what they're assuming and what is actually found in data. They always want to equivocate and keep things confusing for their audience)

So this is why the "nested hierarchy of common descent" can so easily adjust to new unexpected data.

Evolution theory is always basing its nested hierarchy models on the existence of imaginary "common ancestors". You are frequently presented a tree-like diagram depicting major animal groups at the node ends. What you are usually not told is that the base of those tree nodes (which represent common ancestors) are imaginary.

shapeimage_1.jpg


So because the ancestral nodes are imaginary, whenever an animal is discovered exhibiting an unexpected pattern of traits, evolutionists can simply carve out a new imaginary branching event for that animal in their nested hierarchy diagrams. They can root this animal's lineage as far back as necessary to show where it would have branched off from a "common ancestor" and began developing its unique pattern of traits.

This is all possible because evolutionists are constantly working with imaginary events in the mystical imaginary evolutionary past.

Furthermore, even existing lineages can be fundamentally rearranged if it means harmonizing evolutionary models with new data. All of it is malleable play-doh that is designed to accommodate unexpected data.

So essentially whenever their "nested hierarchy" is broken, they can simply fabricate a new nested group to fix it.

This is all fine and dandy for the purposes of working with hypothetical models... but hopefully you now see how absurd the claim is that Evolution is somehow being rigorously 'tested' because all of life falls into a "nested hierarchy of common descent". This is yet another myth that the evolutionary community perpetuates to sell you their creation religion.

Evolution is a fog that settles around the shifting landscape of data.

So?
 
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lifepsyop

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Here is another example. When animal morphology is discovered showing a major contradiction to all known groupings, evolutionists simply say "Well, Evolution did it.", and carve out a new imaginary lineage for the animal in their 'nested hierarchy of common descent'...

...and then they simultaneously argue that Evolution has passed some rigorous scientific testing because all of life "fits" into that nested hierarchy.

Yi qi: Bat-Winged Dinosaur Discovered in China

image_2750_1-Yi-qi.jpg


The most striking feature of the dinosaur is the presence of an anomalous, slightly curved, distally tapered, rod-like bone, which is morphologically unlike any normal theropod skeletal element.


Indeed, no equivalent of the rod-like bone is known in any other dinosaur even outside Theropoda, but similar structures are present in a diverse array of extant and extinct flying or gliding tetrapods like bats.


http://www.sci-news.com/paleontology/science-yi-qi-bat-winged-dinosaur-china-02750.html


A bizarre Jurassic maniraptoran theropod with preserved evidence of membranous wings - Nature 2015

...Most surprisingly, Yi has a long rod-like bone extending from each wrist, and patches of membranous tissue preserved between the rod-like bones and the manual digits. Analogous features are unknown in any dinosaur but occur in various flying and gliding tetrapods, suggesting the intriguing possibility that Yi had membranous aerodynamic surfaces totally different from the archetypal feathered wings of birds and their closest relatives. Documentation of the unique forelimbs of Yi greatly increases the morphological disparity known to exist among dinosaurs, and highlights the extraordinary breadth and richness of the evolutionary experimentation that took place close to the origin of birds.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v521/n7550/full/nature14423.html


There's another one of those fuzzy phrases to watch out for: "evolutionary experimentation"... It is nothing but imagination but they make it sound like it is a scientific concept. The line between data and Darwinian mysticism is always blurred.

This is what happens when you have an Evolutionary creation religion hiding behind the life sciences.
 
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lifepsyop

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I guess this is the appropriate response when evolutionists make grand claims about their "nested hierarchy". So what? You guys just retrofit it to accommodate new data. It is no test or confirmation of Common Descent whatsoever. So lets put that myth to rest.
 
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crjmurray

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I guess this is the appropriate response when evolutionists make grand claims about their "nested hierarchy". So what? You guys just retrofit it to accommodate new data. It is no test or confirmation of Common Descent whatsoever. So lets put that myth to rest.

Every scientific theory changes when faced with new information. Once again....so?
 
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lifepsyop

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You forgot the bit where the nested heirarchy of anatomy and fossils concords with the nested heirarchies from genetics, embryology, virology, and numerous other fields.

That's a strange (and predictably vague) claim considering the nested hierarchy of anatomy and fossils doesn't even concord with itself. There isn't even any standard to concord to, since the nested hierarchy is a constantly morphing ad-hoc model.
 
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Loudmouth

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"Palaeontologists are referring to Chilesaurus diegosuarezi as a 'platypus' dinosaur because of its bizarre combination of characters that resemble different dinosaur groups. For example, Chilesaurus boasted a proportionally small skull, hands with two fingers like Tyrannosaurus rex and feet more akin to primitive long-neck dinosaurs.

I see that you still don't understand the difference between analogous and homologous traits.

Why don't we see any dinosaurs with three middle ear bones, or fur? Where are the major violations that we would expect to see with created kinds?
 
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lifepsyop

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Why don't we see any dinosaurs with three middle ear bones, or fur? Where are the major violations that we would expect to see with created kinds?

A dinosaur with a middle ear-bone is "evolutionary experimentation".
A dinosaur with fur is "evolutionary experimentation".

Neither of these would be a violation of your nested hierarchy, it would simply be an unexpected revelation of what evolution did over millions of years.

We know it wouldn't be a violation because you won't be able to explain how it would be a violation. All you'll be able to do is assert it would be in the hope of making your theory seem more robust than it actually is.
 
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lifepsyop

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Where are these fossils?

I just told you what those traits would be interpreted as. And you won't be able to argue otherwise.

A dinosaur with a middle ear-bone would be "evolutionary experimentation".
A dinosaur with fur would be "evolutionary experimentation".

Neither of these would be a violation of your nested hierarchy, it would simply be an unexpected revelation of what evolution did over millions of years.

We know it wouldn't be a violation because you won't be able to explain how it would be a violation. All you'll be able to do is assert it would be in the hope of making your theory seem more robust than it actually is.
 
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Loudmouth

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I just told you what those traits would be interpreted as.


The fact is we don't see those fossils. We see exactly the fossils we should see, and instead of dealing with those facts you invent a fantasyland where falsifying evidence is found and ignored by scientists. I'm sorry, but your fantasyland does not refute reality.
 
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lifepsyop

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The fact is we don't see those fossils. We see exactly the fossils we should see, and instead of dealing with those facts you invent a fantasyland where falsifying evidence is found and ignored by scientists. I'm sorry, but your fantasyland does not refute reality.

As predicted:
We know it wouldn't be a violation because you won't be able to explain how it would be a violation. All you'll be able to do is assert it would be in the hope of making your theory seem more robust than it actually is.

Next time bring an argument, Loudmouth.
 
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lasthero

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As predicted:
We know it wouldn't be a violation because you won't be able to explain how it would be a violation. All you'll be able to do is assert it would be in the hope of making your theory seem more robust than it actually is.

Next time bring an argument, Loudmouth.
I'm really not sure how you got that from what he said.
 
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lifepsyop

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I'm really not sure how you got that from what he said.

C'mon put in a little reading effort. It's only a couple of posts up.

Loudmouth claimed that middle-ear bones or fur being found on a dinosaur would be a "violation" of the nested hierarchy. Yet he was unable to explain how.

He knows he can't explain how because if these traits were discovered, there is no reason they wouldn't be interpreted as another case of "evolutionary experimentation", not unlike the evolutionary reasoning demonstrated in the OP.
 
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Loudmouth

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As predicted:
We know it wouldn't be a violation because you won't be able to explain how it would be a violation. All you'll be able to do is assert it would be in the hope of making your theory seem more robust than it actually is.

Next time bring an argument, Loudmouth.

I don't have to address evidence that doesn't exist. Why would I need to explain violations that don't exist?

Do you really think that you can falsify theories with imaginary evidence?
 
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Loudmouth

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Loudmouth claimed that middle-ear bones or fur being found on a dinosaur would be a "violation" of the nested hierarchy. Yet he was unable to explain how.

Numerous and obvious examples of fossils with a mixture of dinosaurian and mammalian derived features would be a violation of the nested hierarchy. It is a rather simple thing to understand.

Why do we see dinosaurs with features, but not fur? How does creationism explain that?

He knows he can't explain how because if these traits were discovered, there is no reason they wouldn't be interpreted as another case of "evolutionary experimentation", not unlike the evolutionary reasoning demonstrated in the OP.

Again, you are inventing evidence.
 
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